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Unfolded Protein Response and A Possible Treatment for CFS

Flo

Messages
80
@mariovitali - I'm trying to think of a good way to explain the relationship between SNPs and disease. I'm not a teacher, so it's not something I'm any good at. But since you don't have a couple hours per week to spare for a proper free introductory course online, here's my attempt:

SNPs (or more specifically alleles) are the basis of genes. Typically there are hundreds or thousands of them on each gene. The gene creates a protein. If there is a major change in that protein, it might function differently. That can result in too much or too little of the protein, or the protein being too effective or ineffective at doing its job, or no protein being created at all. When the protein is badly malfunctioning, that is when disease can result.

SNPs --> gene --> protein --> disease.

So SNPs can result in disease, but you can't take a shortcut straight from SNP --> disease. The SNP will only cause disease if it fundamentally alters the protein.

I think I see where you two are getting stuck.

It is not just:
SNPs --> gene --> protein --> disease

It is also:
SNPs --> gene --> protein --> increased risk of disease

For example, lets look at selenoprotein genes:

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/5/3621/htm

Although epidemiological studies indicate that low Se intake is linked to increased risk for various chronic diseases, supplementation trials have given confusing outcomes, suggesting that additional genetic factors could affect the relationship between Se and health. Genetic data support this hypothesis, as risk for several chronic diseases, in particular cancer, was linked to a number of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP) altering Se metabolism, selenoprotein synthesis or activity. Interactions between SNPs in selenoprotein genes, SNPs in related molecular pathways and biomarkers of Se status were found to further modulate the genetic risk carried by the SNPs. Taken together, nutritional genomics approaches uncovered the potential implication of some selenoproteins as well as the influence of complex interactions between genetic variants and Se status in the aetiology of several chronic diseases.​

So SNPs, in combination with poor diet, may lead to disease. These genetic variants will mean some people might need much more selenium than others in order to not have a disease. It is not that say that a particular GPX2 SNP CAUSES disease, but it can increase the risk of disease. So far there are zero studies that have encompassed genetics, diet, and lifestyle in a way that can point to this. They are just too large and too difficult and they will never happen, so you will never have the proof you are looking for.

This was 100% true for me and my BTD and HLCS genes. If I get enough Biotin I do not have seb derm. At this point I cannot say that everyone who has Seb Derm has my genotype, or that everyone with my genotype will have seb derm, it depends on their diet and possibly some other genes that have to do with stress (MAOA). This is for each person to figure out. And this is where I think both you and Mario get it wrong. You keep looking for the "one thing" that will fix ME. There is no one thing, there is only one method to find out. That method is looking at our own genetics to look for clues (not proof) of what diet and supplements we might need to reduce our risk of disease and to cure our disease.

So what Mario is looking at are SNPs that might increase the risk of ME, not directly cause it.

Basically, it's not possible to guess that SNPs outside of exons are having any impact. We need proper research showing that those SNPs do or do not have an impact. If predicting is to be done, it's for the missense mutations (amino acid changes) or nonsense mutations (premature stops) in the exons, and there are valid ways in which to go about it. Some are simple, like the BLOSUM62 amino acid chart, and some programs evaluate dozens of factors regarding the amino acid, it's location, nearby amino acids, 3D modeling, etc. So this is also a far cry from guessing blindly.

I did the research, on myself, with my Biotin genes. And then some other people tried it, some with my SNPs, some without. I kept everything in my life the same (diet, stress, etc) and I only added and removed Biotin. If SNPs had no impact we would see no variation in response. But that variation in response was clearly evident. Notably that people without two BTD SNPs got headaches taking the Biotin and people without them did not. Is it worthy of a journal? No, but who cares? My seb derm is gone, so are a few others. I have done this for other SNPs as well. It was a matter of testing BASED on my genetics to see if SNPs were effecting cofactor use. You see this in the MTHFR gene, how the MTHFR gene with certain SNPs can increase activity when given enough FAD,

Understanding genetics is important, but understanding nutritional genomics is also important. Have you taken any classes in Nutritional Genomics? They might help broaden your understanding.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I did the research, on myself, with my Biotin genes. And then some other people tried it, some with my SNPs, some without. I kept everything in my life the same (diet, stress, etc) and I only added and removed Biotin. If SNPs had no impact we would see no variation in response.
You're assuming that a particular SNP is the cause for you (presumably) reacting well to biotin. But this ignores the possibility that hundreds of other SNPs could have been causing the (presumed) deficiency instead. And then there is probably a large list of other factors would could cause the same (presumed) problem and respond favorably to the same treatment.

Notably that people without two BTD SNPs got headaches taking the Biotin and people without them did not. Is it worthy of a journal? No, but who cares?
Well, I care, and I know a lot of other people who care. Because this sort of testing is not done with the careful methodology and record-keeping which makes scientific research reliable. Without those measures in place, the testing is back to being anecdotal and inherently vulnerable to biases of perception.

For example, I'm homozygous for a rare non-coding SNP which you claimed would mean I need biotin. But taking a large dose of biotin for a while a couple years ago had no noticeable effect. Yet you have not reported my null experience - only the positive anecdotes which support your beliefs.
 

Flo

Messages
80
You're assuming that a particular SNP is the cause for you (presumably) reacting well to biotin. But this ignores the possibility that hundreds of other SNPs could have been causing the (presumed) deficiency instead. And then there is probably a large list of other factors would could cause the same (presumed) problem and respond favorably to the same treatment.

Yes, there is a possibility that my response to biotin was not from these biotin dependant genes SNPs, but what is the likelihood? And if it happened in other people...? I am not offering proof, just an interesting pattren to see if I can replicate.

Do not mistake my understanding that what I have done would not hold up to sceintific journal scrutiny. But still, it works. And, as I have said before, my understanding was shared with Dr. Barry Wolf who turned me on to the idea. Yes, the guy that wrote this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1322/

That is a scientist, agreeing with me. He said, yes, there are no studies comparing people with SNPs in all of those genes and how they respond to Biotin. So I could be as right as anyone else. But, he said, the real proof is that my symptoms went away.

For example, I'm homozygous for a rare non-coding SNP which you claimed would mean I need biotin. But taking a large dose of biotin for a while a couple years ago had no noticeable effect. Yet you have not reported my null experience - only the positive anecdotes which support your beliefs.

But you see, right here, you misunderstand me. I do not claim that that one SNP means you need Biotin, I also look at all the SNPs in the HLCS and the ACACA genes, and diet, and other medications/supplemets.

And this is all about experimentation, trying things, investigating. You did not tell me how much you took or for how long or what your diet was like and another supplements you were taking at the time. So I cannot report your null experience because you gave me almost no data.

I can provide a list of SNPs that I look at and if you want you can share yours and we can make a comparison to maybe see why Biotin worked for me but not for you.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
But you see, right here, you misunderstand me. I do not claim that that one SNP means you need Biotin, I also look at all the SNPs in the HLCS and the ACACA genes, and diet, and other medications/supplemets.
My apologies for not elaborating. I have the missense mutation on BTD which is known to reduce enzyme activity by about 50%. I also am homozygous for the non-coding HLCS SNP which you believe is responsible for causing problems when present along with the BTD mutation.

I explained that in your seborrheic dermatitis thread when you asked my what my relevant genotypes were. You then replied to my response, so presumably you read and understood my response. Hence there seems to be some unintended selectivity in your memory of anecdotal reports, with the contrary reports being discounted and/or forgotten.

Since all human beings have this rather essential problem, I will continue to prefer more rigorous scientific methodology.
 

Flo

Messages
80
My apologies for not elaborating. I have the missense mutation on BTD which is known to reduce enzyme activity by about 50%. I also am homozygous for the non-coding HLCS SNP which you believe is responsible for causing problems when present along with the BTD mutation.

I explained that in your seborrheic dermatitis thread when you asked my what my relevant genotypes were. You then replied to my response, so presumably you read and understood my response. Hence there seems to be some unintended selectivity in your memory of anecdotal reports, with the contrary reports being discounted and/or forgotten.

Since all human beings have this rather essential problem, I will continue to prefer more rigorous scientific methodology.

Sheesh, can you forgive a woman for forgetting? :)

But you do not tell me how much Biotin you took, how much omega 6 vs omega 3 you eat...but I found out in your old posts.

It is VERY POSSIBLE you were not taking enough Biotin, you might need even more than me. A complete deficiency requires over 200mg a day! And by the way that is the dose they gave people in this MS study that relieved the symptoms of over 90% of the people in the study. Not the 3mg you seem to have taken. But even YOU said taking this dose that "I've been taking 2-3mg of biotin per day for the past week. No side effects thus far, and the little weird/scaly patches on my face seem to be diminishing, though they aren't gone and it's really too soon to say for sure. I'm also in the middle of a crash triggered Tuesday, and have none of the aches and pains I'd usually get with a crash. I don't even have the sore legs I was expecting due to cycling on a stationary bike until I more or less collapsed. "

You even agree with me here but disagree with me in this post?
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...iency-23andme-test-btd-gene-poll.27476/page-2
"The transporters (SLC5A6, SLC16A1, SLC19A3) look completely normal for the ME patients. But if adding together the rare genotypes occurring in BTD and HLCS, weighted based on rarity (10 for purple, 5 for red, 2 for orange, 1 for yellow), the ME patients would be 211, versus 58 for the controls. So nearly 4 times as much rarity in those genes for ME patients compared to the controls."

That PROVES to me again that biotin cures seb derm and can even possible be the cause of some pain and fatigue.

You talk about me being unscientific and all you do is take a low dose of 3mg and conclude it did not work even when you say it did? I went up to 30mg with ease but found I only needed 10mg if I watched my diet. And again, I am not saying Biotin cured everything, but it plays a huge role. It might be that some other supplement you were taking was effecting you negatively.

No I am not a scientist, I admit that, but I am an explorer. Scientists do not discover things, explores do.

At this point all I can say is that you have some beef with me because I fail to grasp why you would agree with what i say in an old post but disagree with me in this new one. If you can explain that I would appreciate it.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Sheesh, can you forgive a woman for forgetting?
It has nothing to do with blame. It's a simple matter of demonstrating that people remember what they want to remember. They aren't as interested in remembering things which contradict their beliefs.
You talk about me being unscientific and all you do is take a low dose of 3mg and conclude it did not work even when you say it did?
Since 5mg made me feel awful, I think it was reasonable to stick to trying 4 or less. I thought it might be having an effect at first, but after a while it was clear that it was not. My skin symptoms wax and wane depending on inflammation, which seems to come and go pretty randomly.
No I am not a scientist, I admit that, but I am an explorer. Scientists do not discover things, explores do.
I'm pretty sure scientists do discover things, using scientific methodology. And they're probably less likely to be mistaken about what they've discovered, compared to the brave explorers :p
At this point all I can say is that you have some beef with me because I fail to grasp why you would agree with what i say in an old post but disagree with me in this new one.
I disagree with what you're saying because I disagree with it. I am not going around looking for things to disagree about. And I would appreciate that you stick to the topic under discussion instead of attempting to deflect to some imagined personal dislike.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
This thread is now re-opened. Any personal attacks have been removed. This is the third time the moderators have had to step in and moderate this thread. If there any further issues, it will be closed permanently.

Thank you.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Just a quick update :


Unfortunately i crashed really badly because i stopped TUDCA 5 days ago and minimised Alpha GPC intake. I got very depressed ( i would say severely)...i also got Brain Fog and lost my Libido.


I was ready to leave this Forum and not coming back again. @Kina got just a little taste of me while being depressed...

All is well now :)


I started taking Bile Acid Factors from Jarrow's as opposed to TUDCA and interestingly i feel great.




And now for the interesting part - FYI @Bdeep86 :

One of the people that their TBAs (Total Bile acids) were found to be high in January re-took the test and this time it is normal (...!?)

He went to a different lab than the previous one (where the Blood sample was sent to France).

So i can think of three reasons :

a) One of the Labs gave Bogus/Incorrect results
b) Cholestasis is intermittent
c) There is some other kind of Bile Acid problem

In both tests the person told me that he followed the suggested fasting of 12 hours before giving Blood sample

First pic is the elevated TBAs (Ref range < 4.2) having found 13.8 - Sample sent to France
Second one is the normal TBAs (Ref Range 0-10 μmol/L) having found 1.53 - Sample analysed in a Greek Lab



tba1.png



tba2.png
 
Last edited:
Messages
13
Just a quick update :
I started taking Bile Acid Factors from Jarrow's as opposed to TUDCA and interestingly i feel great.

That is interesting. I've been looking at that supp. as an alternative to TUDCA and just wasn't sure about it. I think I'll give it a try after my current bottle of TDUCA runs out.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
Yet one person who was found with increased Bile Acids.


See the following snapshot (in Dutch Galzuren=Bile Acids)


Screen Shot 2016-03-10 at 19.25.11.png
 
Messages
37
Mariovitali, in the first page you had a schedule for when to take what supplements during the day. Can you do a modified one with the most important supplements, or at least less than what you had on your post in the first page?

I have atypical chronic fatigue, I guess, in that the worst of the fatigue is mental. So I can work a job (while hopped up on prescription mental drugs), but I need a simpler supplement schedule because of that.

I have a lot of the symptoms that you had, except I'm a woman and have never taken finasteride or accutane. What you're saying here rings true for me, though. I think I might as well try it.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@douglasmich

It's not that easy i am afraid (=simply taking TUDCA). Have you checked your Total Bile acids, Liver and Gallbladder function at all?

PM me if you can send me your DNA Data
 

Sam7777

Senior Member
Messages
115
So my big questions are:

What causes someone to underproduce their own natural TUDCA?
What are some salient reasons people underproduce or cannot maintain healthy choline levels?

Kefir is still really helping me for the record. Kefir and resistant starch make a drastically significant difference. Whatever it is doing, it is affecting these choline and tudca synthesis issues, or the microbiome species are, along with the other ways in which bile production influences endocrine function and gene expression. Notably, my kefir comes from amazon and has about 40 strains of stuff. Normal kefir and other fermented dairy don't help me like this kefir does. Without the psillium fiber it doesn't work out near as well, I really need the bulk and prebiotic.

I obviously need a dna test, and I also want to get a ubiome test. No one here mentioned ubiome yet, but I really strongly feel that the microbiome should be included as an area of concern.

What does kefir do for me?

-Greatly reduced thiol and histamine sensitivity
-Apparent better digestion and better BM
-Drastically less liver and gallbladder pain
-Less quasi-POTS like issues
-Less brain fog
-Better energy
-Better sleep
-Better dreaming
-Can eat some thiols and histamines
-Less nasty headaches and tension cramps and spasms
-Far less severe crashes

Huperzine of course helps, but I am out.
 
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