The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Seborrheic Dermatitis

Discussion in 'General Symptoms' started by Flo, Feb 19, 2016.

  1. Flo

    Flo

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    Does anyone else here have seborrheic dermatitis? I found, through trial and error, that mine was the result of a biotin deficiency. It was very bad ever since my 20's and kept getting worse. I started taking 2000mcg but found I needed to take 10,000mcg a day for it to go into total remission. I want to say it was very bad; my scalp would scab and my face (eyebrows, forehead, cracks of nose, and cheeks) would be very red, scaly and inflammed.

    The does was confirmed to me by a doctor who studies "partial biotinidase deficiency". But once I had my genetics we were able to see it in my biotinidase genes and in a gene called HLCS!

    It turns out it is caused by a yeast called Malassezia that lives off of a certain type of skin oil/fat. It seems when people have a biotin deficiency it will create more of that fat so the yeast thrives.
     
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  2. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I have SD but not too bad. I get it above my lip and my eyebrows. It is controlled with a medicated shampoo. Is the gene one that can be seen on 23andme? Maybe I will give biotin a go.
     
  3. Flo

    Flo

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    Yes, they are on 23andme. I can give you the list of SNPs a friend gave me to check. It will be interesting to see if you have the same stuff going on! I will get him to explain it more and post the SNPs here. There are a lot of them in the HLCS gene to look at. He said 23andme did not list all the BTD (biotinidase) SNPs, but there were enough to tell.

    I know when i was stressed it would get worse, and if I ate a high fat diet it would get worse. Was that like you? Do you have dandruff as well.
     
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  4. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    That would be v helpful, thanks. No dundruff. Not sure what makes it worse. It does come and go. I also control it by washing a lot because I do have oily skin now. It's odd though because my scalp is the worst on that front but I dont have any SD on my scalp at all. I only have thin hair now on my scalp, so I think a combination of oily skin and hair is the important thing. Anyway, the problem with very oily skin only started after I got ill with ME. Not sure if related or not. I use a olive oil soap which is very good at keeping my skin clean while not upsetting my skin. I find chemical soaps make things worse generally.
     
  5. Flo

    Flo

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    Well that sounds a lot different than me, but we will see. It will probably not be until tomorrow that I can get those SNPs.
     
  6. Flo

    Flo

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    He got back to me quickly, so here are the SNPs. He said the person has to be either heterozygous for rs13078881 or homozygous for rs7651039 in the BTD gene at least. And the person must also have some of the low frequency SNPs in the HLCS gene which uses Biotin as a cofactor.

    But he added that since 23andme does not show all the BTD SNPs, one could have Seb Derm still.

    The letters after the RSID are the minor alleles with their corresponding frequecy.

    I am heterozygous for BTD rs13078881. I had a Biotinidase test done and showed it was at 70% efficiency, which the doctors consider "normal". However he said that my heteozygous SNP in HLCS rs3787752 in combination with the BTD SNP is what causes the seb derm.

    He showed me this research as well.
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n4/abs/ejhg2011198a.html#close

    BTD
    rs13078881 C 2%
    rs7651039 T 33%
    HLCS
    rs117513334 C 1%
    rs4402840 C 3%
    rs16994508 T 4%
    rs8132225 T 4%
    rs2073418 C 7%
    rs12151959 G 7%
    rs11701858 G 9%
    rs732252 T 10%
    rs3787757 A 10%
    rs3787752 A 12%
    rs2835482 T 13%
    rs2835478 C 17%
     
  7. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Did he explain why he felt that rs3787752 was relevant? The A allele is a common variant for that SNP, and 21% of the general population (and around 30% of Europeans) should be heterozygous for it. I also can't see any research referencing it at all.
     
  8. Flo

    Flo

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    No, he said it was on going, but he was seeing patterns that are outside of the official research. It is my understanding that even though the HLCS SNP can be common, it is in combination with the BTD SNPs that is the cause of the appearance of Seb Derm. Since HLCS depends on Biotin and Biotinidase is responsible for making biotin . I will ask him for some more detail. But I think you are reading something wrong. That SNP, meaning the single allele, only occurs in 12% of the population. So even though only 12% will have the one HLCS SNP, and even lower percentage will have both HLCS and BTD SNPs at the same time.

    But I guess if someone here has the SNPs and has seb derm we they can try it and see if it helps.
     
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  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    How would he see a pattern outside of the research? Isn't it research itself which is used to detect such patterns? Citing unpublished research which no one else can check and verify is rather bad form.
    No, the Minor Allele Frequency (MAF) is 12%. That means it occurs in homozygous form in 1.4% (.12 * .12 * 100) of people, and in heterozygous form in 21.1% ((1-.12) * .12 * 200) of people. 22.5% of the general population should therefore have at least one minor allele for that SNP.
    Do you think it's responsible or ethical to recommend treatments based on SNPs when there is no research showing that the SNPs having any impact at all?
     
  10. LaurelW

    LaurelW Senior Member

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    I haven't had 23andme done, but I have always had an itchy scalp without dandruff. My skin doctor said it's SD and to use the nasty chemical shampoos. I don't, but there are less harmful versions at the health food store. Unfortunately, they smell of pine tar or other strong odors, which I don't do well with because of chemical sensitivity. My other solution is to wash my hair every day, but that takes way too much energy, and my husband washes it for me as often as he can, which is usually twice a week. I wash it every other day one way or another, because it just gets too itchy otherwise. Any suggestions?
     
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  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I am not sure what I have - it's quite like seborrheic dermatitis but is mainly on my scalp and very white. For years I had a condition in which my scalp skin was very lumpy, and I could pull up areas of scalp skin as though they were made of putty or plasticine. I had no dandruff or hair loss, and it was easy to cover the condition with my hair.

    Now I am losing hair, especially at the top of my scalp, which has become white and is flaking horribly.

    I am now starting to wear a headscarf when I go out as it looks so bad.

    I've started using my UVB lamp again (not directly on the scalp) as my Vitamin D levels were sub-optimal, and hoping that might help. I have been reading up on nutrients - isn't biotin deficiency rare? This page says:
     
  12. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Have you tried a gentle shampoo? I've had flaking since I was 13-14, within a year of being bitten by ticks on a regular basis. Dandruff shampoos, anti-fungals, etc, never helped and were always just more irritating. Using a shampoo without sodium sulfates (such as sodium laureth sulfate) or irritating oils, "perfume", etc, has helped a lot.

    http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/browse/shampoo/ does a fairly good rating, though manufacturers will sometimes relabel or switch to slightly different new ingredients to avoid being flagged for problematic ingredients. Lower scores are better.
     
  13. Flo

    Flo

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    He was using the MAF as the marker, that is all I am saying.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_allele_frequency
    Minor allele frequency (MAF) refers to the frequency at which the least common allele occurs in a given population.

    But then most people are not here to be confused by genetics vocabulary, right?
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/interesting-mthfr-variations.24543/

    None of here are doctors, we are all just trying to get better by letting others know what worked and what did not. Biotin cured my seb derm. A lot of people make recommendations here regarding things that worked for them. At least I was working with a doctor with it and decided to share it with people here. Even unscientific methods can work before we find out the science or why it works.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2016
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  14. Flo

    Flo

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    Would you care to share those SNPs i had pointed out earlier?
     
  15. Flo

    Flo

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    Yes, that was just like me!

    Note that I did not have a biotin deficiency either and I had minde measured both serum and with a biotinidase test. That doc said that while biotin deficiency is rare, some of us might just need more because of other genes, like the HLCS. This was true for me, 100%. He called it a functional deficiency.

    Biotin is harmless,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin#Toxicity
    the worst that will happen is you will get a headache or your skin will get too oily if you take more than you need. Of all the things people try on here I would say it is the least harmful.

    I do not see how it would hurt to try. My upper limit seems to be 15000mcg.
     
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Flo I'm homozygous for both of the BTD snps. Most of the HLCS snps, I'm homoz for the opposite snp to what you've listed. I had SD at various times in my life. More recently, it was clearly related to folate deficiency. Also, has been associated w/ Candida. I don't know that the dx SD has been very specific in my case, rather than a label given when nothing else was better. I did take high Biotin for awhile, though never as much as you. I'm no longer needing more than what's in my B complex.
     
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  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Sort of. But it's the rate per allele, not per person. And for a SNP with two alleles, a MAF of 12% does not translate to a predicted 12% rate of that allele in the sampled population. However if the SNP were on the Y gene or on the X gene for a male, a 12% MAF would translate to 12% prevalence rate.
    This isn't vocabulary. It's the mathematical calculation of the rate at which an allele occurs, which can be pretty relevant to whether or not it is a rare SNP or a very common SNP. There's a big difference between 12% and 22% (or even 30%), which I think most people do understand and appreciate.
    I'm heterozygous for rs13078881 on BTD, and homozygous AA for rs3787752 on HLCS. I'm also homozygous for an even rarer genotype for rs12151959. See this thread for more details. Supplementing a high dose of biotin had no apparent impact after a while ... there were some fluctuations in some symptoms, but I have those same fluctuations even when not taking biotin.
     
  18. Flo

    Flo

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    What dose of biotin were you taking? You might have needed more, yes?

    This will also depend on the type and content of fat in the diet.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting. I've had skin issues such as dry skin, dandruff, SD, for years. I assumed it was all gut related but my gut's a mess so I've never bee able to tame it completely. Biotin sounds like a safe enough option, and easy to execute. I hope it works!
     
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  20. Flo

    Flo

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    How is your seb derm now?

    I had several conversations with Dr. Barry Wolf
    http://www.childrensdmc.org/barrywolf
    and we talked about the seb derm and Candida connection. He told me I would need a higher dose and he was right.

    I think there is some snergy with biotin and riboflavin.
     

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