Transdermal B12 oils

[Kathevans]

Has anyone heard something about this product?

I haven't, but then I'm not in England. As far as I can read the label, it seems to have MSM in it which some of us don't tolerate...myself included! The purer the form, the less likely any reactions will be a mystery. You'll know what caused it.

On the other hand, there's been a lot of experience with the B12 Oils from Australia, many of us have had long, detailed exchanges with the owner and you can certainly find out just about anything you might want to know by reading this thread...

 

[Kathevans]

@Athene* Well, as you might imagine today is not great! But, my own fault, right?! But the whole experience/experiment was very interesting, that is, having stopped the folate and MeB12 and then starting them again. When I woke yesterday after about 6 hours of broken, but for me, very good sleep, I felt very happy. When I looked at myself in the bathroom mirror, I swear, I looked 5 years younger! It was amazing. It was so marked, I mentioned it to my husband last night...though unfortunately, those benefits had passed!

The cleaning I couldn't resist. How could I? I was feeling good and also feeling as if I was living in a dump. Of course, I'm very compulsive, and truth to tell, I actually don't mind, might even say I like cleaning. I like the physicality of it, the humming of a song in your head, the meditative trolling of your thoughts. I like the way the house looks afterward with a little spit and polish.

But then, by evening I was fading, I developed a headache on the left side of my face that wouldn't go away. Folate deficiency symptoms? Lymphatic issues? I remember Asklipia saying that as we develop, our bodies tend to have more lymphatic channels on the left than the right. I took a Tylenol to relieve the headache.

But sleep was impossible. I finally got up at 1:00 and took 1/4 valium to shut off my mind and it worked. I slept soundly from 1:15-3-6:50. That second stretch was long. But I was exhausted and then awake till 8:40 or so. I took a variation on your Adrenal cocktail, coconut water with buffered Vit C powder w/ rosehips and a few cashews. But I also slipped 1/2 Source Naturals B2 up under my gums (12.5mgB2/9mg FMN) and eventually slept till 10.

But my legs still feel like lead when I go upstairs. Worse than usual. And, all my usual spots are sore. So that's the experiment. This morning, with a new, raised dose of Folate-800mcg- and MeB12-4,000mcg, (Well, half this morning; half after lunch) it took till now 2:30 to get rid of my headache, which was with me from rising this morning, first, dull, then more insistent.

I'm going to get my B2 levels back up to 64mg today and hope that I don't have to drive the folate too high. I'm pleased to see @Johnmac has managed just that--I'm so glad this is working for you. But I had never found a comfortable level of folate, a place that was symptom-free. The B2 is clearly helping me to raise my levels much more comfortably, as anyone who has done this specific treatment for MAO++ knows. And we shall see. (Oh, Athene*, I don't get the tingling from B2, but dry eyes (which I had prior) and dry mouth and tiredness, which I think is actually a good thing)

As to the B12--I've got to get back to the Oils. My gums are getting sore. Not to mention sucking on those tablets all day long...@Johnmac when do you rub in your second dose of the B-12 Oils? I recall you said that Greg said they get absorbed very quickly so baths and showers don't really matter after a short period of time. But I've taken the lozenges as late as 5 or so, but might be nervous with the oil that late. I know Greg says that some people take it before bed to assure a good night's sleep, though, so who knows. And I know @garyfritz uses it at night, too.

I'm still struggling with the sides of Adocbl. Have you managed to take it since we last talked about it? G said Biotin would help to absorb it properly. I wonder if you ever tried that?

This is interesting, and quite possibly important. I have said that AdoB12 seemed to drive my folate needs and made it impossible for me to take. But if we back up a bit, we know that B2 helps us to absorb our folate, so our folate levels rise. I also know that my Biotin, when tested within the last month, was low--I realized probably from the avidin in the two eggs a day I'd been eating for years. I'm currently taking an extra 500-1,000mcg of Biotin a day--I'm hoping that isn't over-kill to replenish my depleted stores (I'm off eggs for the moment). I'm thinking that maybe a month of this and my Biotin levels will be restored. Then maybe the AdoB-12. I certainly recall Freddd saying that it was very important for inflammation. Beyond an initial bit of hyperness (possibly the MAO++), I never had any symptoms of it going into my system. Only later, I'd begin to get folate deficiency symptoms--and that awful tight face.

So, I'm not going to re-try the Ado B12 yet. I want to find my optimum Folate/MeB12 levels and continue to raise my B2, because I've been impressed by how much others have benefited from it. My goal is: as little of each supplement as possible. And I would love to be able to use the MeB12/AdoB12 Oil. Wouldn't that be ideal?!

Thanks for the adrenal links. I am trying to get more Vit C in as I know that's good. As is the B2. There's just so much....So far the potassium I'm taking seems to be holding off any symptoms. Fingers crossed.

 

[garyfritz]

I've taken the lozenges as late as 5 or so, but might be nervous with the oil that late. I know Greg says that some people take it before bed to assure a good night's sleep, though, so who knows. And I know @garyfritz uses it at night, too.

Some people have trouble sleeping after taking B12, but not me. I can't sleep unless I DO take it. Even with two doses of oil at bedtime, it often wears off after a few hours. I wake at 3-4 AM with agitation and twitching muscles, and often with nightmarish mental state. I can't get back to sleep until I take some B12.

 

[Johnmac]

@Athene*
As to the B12--I've got to get back to the Oils. My gums are getting sore. Not to mention sucking on those tablets all day long...@Johnmac when do you rub in your second dose of the B-12 Oils? I recall you said that Greg said they get absorbed very quickly so baths and showers don't really matter after a short period of time. But I've taken the lozenges as late as 5 or so, but might be nervous with the oil that late. I know Greg says that some people take it before bed to assure a good night's sleep, though, so who knows. And I know @garyfritz uses it at night, too.

I tend to take it about 10pm, not long before bed, Kath. The oil has to proceed through the dermis, then through the lymph, all of which takes several hours: blood levels don't tend to peak for 6-8 hours. I have used it to wake me up at 7am. Taking it in the afternoon can have you waking at 3am.

Having said that, the oil doesn't wake me up any more anyway - but the first 2-3 weeks it did.

Greg himself takes the methyl (only) before bed sometimes, to assure a good sleep.

 

[Biarritz13]

I haven't, but then I'm not in England. As far as I can read the label, it seems to have MSM in it which some of us don't tolerate...myself included! The purer the form, the less likely any reactions will be a mystery. You'll know what caused it.

On the other hand, there's been a lot of experience with the B12 Oils from Australia, many of us have had long, detailed exchanges with the owner and you can certainly find out just about anything you might want to know by reading this thread...

Hi Kath. Thank you for this information, I wasn't aware about MSM...

 

[Athene*]

Has anyone heard something about this product?

I haven't heard of it. I can't see who makes it? Maybe you know more about it than I do. I do trust the one I'm using because I know who makes it and he's a biochemist with decades of experience researching b12 and other transdermal vitamin/treatment delivery - Greg Russell Jones of B12oils.com. He's the guy often mentioned in the threads here.

 

[Athene*]

@Athene* Well, as you might imagine today is not great! But, my own fault, right?! But the whole experience/experiment was very interesting, that is, having stopped the folate and MeB12 and then starting them again. When I woke yesterday after about 6 hours of broken, but for me, very good sleep, I felt very happy. When I looked at myself in the bathroom mirror, I swear, I looked 5 years younger! It was amazing. It was so marked, I mentioned it to my husband last night...though unfortunately, those benefits had passed!

The cleaning I couldn't resist. How could I? I was feeling good and also feeling as if I was living in a dump. Of course, I'm very compulsive, and truth to tell, I actually don't mind, might even say I like cleaning. I like the physicality of it, the humming of a song in your head, the meditative trolling of your thoughts. I like the way the house looks afterward with a little spit and polish.

But then, by evening I was fading, I developed a headache on the left side of my face that wouldn't go away. Folate deficiency symptoms? Lymphatic issues? I remember Asklipia saying that as we develop, our bodies tend to have more lymphatic channels on the left than the right. I took a Tylenol to relieve the headache.

But sleep was impossible. I finally got up at 1:00 and took 1/4 valium to shut off my mind and it worked. I slept soundly from 1:15-3-6:50. That second stretch was long. But I was exhausted and then awake till 8:40 or so. I took a variation on your Adrenal cocktail, coconut water with buffered Vit C powder w/ rosehips and a few cashews. But I also slipped 1/2 Source Naturals B2 up under my gums (12.5mgB2/9mg FMN) and eventually slept till 10.

But my legs still feel like lead when I go upstairs. Worse than usual. And, all my usual spots are sore. So that's the experiment. This morning, with a new, raised dose of Folate-800mcg- and MeB12-4,000mcg, (Well, half this morning; half after lunch) it took till now 2:30 to get rid of my headache, which was with me from rising this morning, first, dull, then more insistent.

I'm going to get my B2 levels back up to 64mg today and hope that I don't have to drive the folate too high. I'm pleased to see @Johnmac has managed just that--I'm so glad this is working for you. But I had never found a comfortable level of folate, a place that was symptom-free. The B2 is clearly helping me to raise my levels much more comfortably, as anyone who has done this specific treatment for MAO++ knows. And we shall see. (Oh, Athene*, I don't get the tingling from B2, but dry eyes (which I had prior) and dry mouth and tiredness, which I think is actually a good thing)

As to the B12--I've got to get back to the Oils. My gums are getting sore. Not to mention sucking on those tablets all day long...@Johnmac when do you rub in your second dose of the B-12 Oils? I recall you said that Greg said they get absorbed very quickly so baths and showers don't really matter after a short period of time. But I've taken the lozenges as late as 5 or so, but might be nervous with the oil that late. I know Greg says that some people take it before bed to assure a good night's sleep, though, so who knows. And I know @garyfritz uses it at night, too.



This is interesting, and quite possibly important. I have said that AdoB12 seemed to drive my folate needs and made it impossible for me to take. But if we back up a bit, we know that B2 helps us to absorb our folate, so our folate levels rise. I also know that my Biotin, when tested within the last month, was low--I realized probably from the avidin in the two eggs a day I'd been eating for years. I'm currently taking an extra 500-1,000mcg of Biotin a day--I'm hoping that isn't over-kill to replenish my depleted stores (I'm off eggs for the moment). I'm thinking that maybe a month of this and my Biotin levels will be restored. Then maybe the AdoB-12. I certainly recall Freddd saying that it was very important for inflammation. Beyond an initial bit of hyperness (possibly the MAO++), I never had any symptoms of it going into my system. Only later, I'd begin to get folate deficiency symptoms--and that awful tight face.

So, I'm not going to re-try the Ado B12 yet. I want to find my optimum Folate/MeB12 levels and continue to raise my B2, because I've been impressed by how much others have benefited from it. My goal is: as little of each supplement as possible. And I would love to be able to use the MeB12/AdoB12 Oil. Wouldn't that be ideal?!

Thanks for the adrenal links. I am trying to get more Vit C in as I know that's good. As is the B2. There's just so much....So far the potassium I'm taking seems to be holding off any symptoms. Fingers crossed.

Sorry to hear that, Kath. I know what it's like to crash next day after a good day - it can be very frustrating. I do think it's a great sign though that you even got one good day. Looks like you're heading in the right direction. I might just do what you're doing and leave the Adocbl for a while until I get the biotin raised. The biotin thing you mention puzzles me - G said to eat eggs, just not raw eggs. He says whatever's in raw eggs stops the biotin absorption? He did say to supplement with biotin in my case too. I think he said to try to keep to twice the RDA in most things except b12 and b2.
I'm still finding I get icy cold and achy after any length of walk, even 10 minutes, but if I sit around reading or potter around and do light housework I'm pretty much pain free these days which is a lot better than this time last year. I find the b2 is definitely helping with cutting down the folate and potassium - folate 16mg yesterday, with potassium 2k (down from 30-40mg folate and 3k potassium over the past three weeks). B2 is helping a lot with circadian rhythm. I used to be still awake at 4 or 5 am and sleep until 11am. Now sometimes I've not even made it upstairs and passed out on the couch not long after midnight as if I had taken a sleeping pill (which I haven't for decades) and my husband has come down and found me 5 or 6 hours later - but at least I slept through! I get up to 6 hours straight through these days but can't get further than that.
Looks like the b2 is helping you, but it's so hard when you feel mentally, and seemingly physically, energetic and want to get things done, but the body just isn't able yet and so we crash next day. Patience was never my strong point!
Nice twist on the adrenal cocktail by the way

 

[Athene*]

P.S. @Kathevans Funny you mention it - most of my pain when it comes, is on the left side too - different places along left side...
Glad the potassium is helping you. I hope to get down to reasonably low doses like you're using. It'll be interesting to see if we can eventually come off it, the longer we're on b2.
By the way, can I ask how long are you on b2 now?

 

[Biarritz13]

I haven't heard of it. I can't see who makes it? Maybe you know more about it than I do. I do trust the one I'm using because I know who makes it and he's a biochemist with decades of experience researching b12 and other transdermal vitamin/treatment delivery - Greg Russell Jones of B12oils.com. He's the guy often mentioned in the threads here.

I don't know who makes it exactly but it's possible that it would be under the supervision of Dr. Myhill since it's her website.

I am aware about the B12oilds.com, thank you -)

 

[Kathevans]

folate 16mg yesterday, with potassium 2k (down from 30-40mg folate and 3k potassium over the past three weeks)

This sounds like real progress to me! Yay!

at least I slept through! I get up to 6 hours straight through these days but can't get further than that.

This sounds like pure heaven to me as 6 hours is usually as long as I sleep on a good night.

As to my B2 experimentation, as I looked back over it this morning, it's really much lower and slower than I thought: From mid-January-the end of March I really am only toying with it in the 20-25mg range. The last week in March I get up to 40mg/day and in April--only the last two weeks, I've moved up to 55-65mg/day.

Much of what I was doing was also lowering and getting of the MeB12 and Folate, titrating down and trying to figure out what the tightening in my face/neck is. Interestingly @Gondwanaland posted on this site: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...iciency-or-just-screwed-up.43918/#post-716354

in response to a post of mine: Very interesting. I'm just beginning to notice the interaction. I'd stopped MeB12 and Folate to work on B2, but over time, the same facial tension developed, though very mildly. So, after a week of so off, I began to add in the methyls again--not just for this tension, I have a lot of folate deficiency symptoms--headaches, IBS Diarrhea, stomach upset--while I'm continuing my 50-65mg/day dose of B2.
Hers: Yup, B2 needs methyl donors and vice-versa.

B2 resolves headaches for both DH and I. We never take more than 5mg at a time. DH usually takes 3x 5mg daily on a bad day. We both have extreme weird reactions to supps

When DH gets diarrhea only copper supplementation resolves it. I found out about it one year ago and it never failed so far. I have 2mg copper tablets and have crushed one and give him no more than 100mcg at a time. I am still in the first tablet of the jar It has 100 tablets, they will last the whole life

Now back to me: I started out the day with 9mg FMN and felt fine; rubbed in 1 squirt of the B-12 Oils and still felt fine, but with my brunch, added 1/4 B-Minus Complex, but perhaps more importantly, 400mcg folate and now my cheeks and neck feel tight and I have a slight headache.

@Violeta complicated things further on this thread on Oxalates: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lates-b12-deficiency.36187/page-3#post-716494

when she responded to an old post of mine where I was even then wondering about folate deficiency symptoms with this: "On another forum there has been conversation about SLC19A1, the gene for an enzyme that carries folate, and according to Sterling, when you have a mutation for some reason you need extra thiamine, biotin, and Vit K, and you would be likely to have difficulty with starches?

And of course, I discovered on Promethease that I do indeed have the gene and am homozygous, so there are problems with folate metabolism. Also I have just begun a new --this is real this time:gluten-free diet. That is to say, no grains, and for the moment no cross-reactive stuff either.

To top it off: Since more folate yesterday didn't stop my IBS and loose stool, I decided to actively wonder if it was a folate deficiency OR the beta blocker I've been taking for nearly two years at a half of the lowest possible dose and sure enough, diarrhea is one of the side effects, particularly for people with arthritis, etc. I stopped it today as I've had my doubts about what exactly it was doing anyway when I'm largely a-symptomatic except with low potassium.

So. That's my story! Still trying to unravel the knot.

Tell me how high you've gotten on the B2 and how long you've been at it...!

 

[Violeta]

@Kathevans , your mention of beta blocker(is that for heart issue), low potassium, and arthritis in the same post made me think of something I read yesterday.

http://charles_w.tripod.com/kandthiamin.html

(This is crazy, it's almost makes me wonder if anyone can ever get out of this mess! How can anybody be normal?)

 

[Kathevans]

is that for heart issue

A few years ago--after my B-Complex changed their formula to contain Methyl folate 800mcg and 400mcg B-12--I began to have panicky feelings and heart issues, particularly at night. It went from bad to worse and developed into a wild night-time heart with occasional atrial-fibrillation. It happened to be positional, happened primarily if I was lying down, so I learned to sleep sitting up in a chair, supported with many pillows and a down comforter. Usually by mid-night, around 3-4 a.m it settled enough that I could climb back into bed with my husband. At one point I was harnessed for over a month and sent to surgeons who wanted to perform an ablation of my heart.

I resisted. No one ever asked what supplements I took or if anything had changed in what I took. And frankly, it wouldn't' have occurred to me back then. Eventually my heart settled down--I slowly titrated magnesium into my diet. Something--or simply time and the body's ability to adapt--changed and the heart issues pretty much abated. I went off the beta-blocker.

Then the summer before last I was in England and, perhaps because of the stress of travel my heart started acting up again and there I was without my medication. A very nice doctor in Cambridge prescribed Bisoprolol at the lowest dose 1.25mg and I took a half a tablet and that saved the trip for me. When I came back to the States, my cardiologist thought, well, it's a low dose, why not just stay on it. So I did. Fear is a powerful motivator when it comes to heart issues--and to sleepless nights sitting in a chair.

Once I got off the the offending B-Complex, which took me about 4-5 months to titrate off last spring (I know it sounds ridiculous, but I'd been on it for a decade and as I tried to get off it, I had enormous pain, worsening sleep, scrape-me-off-the-floor depression), and began to supplement with a very low dose B-Complex and add the methyls separately, the heart issue rarely appeared--a few pvcs day or night and tachychardia with low potassium. Normal enough.

But I didn't stop it. But I've been thinking about it and wondering. And today I got on the internet and looked up Bisoprolol and side effects and this--horrifyingly--is what I came up with:

Bisoprolol Side Effects: *** highlighted are some of my main symptoms.
Less serious side effects may include:
dry mouth, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain;
diarrhea, constipation, increased urination;
runny or stuffy nose, ringing in your ears;
feeling tired or weak;
sleep problems (insomnia);
drowsiness, dizziness, spinning sensation;
depression, anxiety, restless feeling;
joint or muscle pain;
mild itching or skin rash; or
loss of interest in sex.

This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Tell your doctor about any unusual or bothersome side effect. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.

Good grief.

Of course some of these were in my life before a few years ago. But I know I wasn't as sick as I became by the time I found this website/forum a year and a half ago. I stopped the Bisoprolol this morning. (don't fret for me; I have low dose, short-acting beta blockers if I really need one...!)

My hope is that all my other issues may become clearer. That alone would be enormous.

@Violeta At least with regard to your link, I'm not taking huge doses of potassium, in face even with supplementation, my K+ levels are about 43; and my thiamine falls mid-range normal. Whew!

 

[Athene*]

This sounds like real progress to me! Yay!



This sounds like pure heaven to me as 6 hours is usually as long as I sleep on a good night.

As to my B2 experimentation, as I looked back over it this morning, it's really much lower and slower than I thought: From mid-January-the end of March I really am only toying with it in the 20-25mg range. The last week in March I get up to 40mg/day and in April--only the last two weeks, I've moved up to 55-65mg/day.

Much of what I was doing was also lowering and getting of the MeB12 and Folate, titrating down and trying to figure out what the tightening in my face/neck is. Interestingly @Gondwanaland posted on this site: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...iciency-or-just-screwed-up.43918/#post-716354

in response to a post of mine: Very interesting. I'm just beginning to notice the interaction. I'd stopped MeB12 and Folate to work on B2, but over time, the same facial tension developed, though very mildly. So, after a week of so off, I began to add in the methyls again--not just for this tension, I have a lot of folate deficiency symptoms--headaches, IBS Diarrhea, stomach upset--while I'm continuing my 50-65mg/day dose of B2.
Hers: Yup, B2 needs methyl donors and vice-versa.

B2 resolves headaches for both DH and I. We never take more than 5mg at a time. DH usually takes 3x 5mg daily on a bad day. We both have extreme weird reactions to supps

When DH gets diarrhea only copper supplementation resolves it. I found out about it one year ago and it never failed so far. I have 2mg copper tablets and have crushed one and give him no more than 100mcg at a time. I am still in the first tablet of the jar It has 100 tablets, they will last the whole life

Now back to me: I started out the day with 9mg FMN and felt fine; rubbed in 1 squirt of the B-12 Oils and still felt fine, but with my brunch, added 1/4 B-Minus Complex, but perhaps more importantly, 400mcg folate and now my cheeks and neck feel tight and I have a slight headache.

@Violeta complicated things further on this thread on Oxalates: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lates-b12-deficiency.36187/page-3#post-716494

when she responded to an old post of mine where I was even then wondering about folate deficiency symptoms with this: "On another forum there has been conversation about SLC19A1, the gene for an enzyme that carries folate, and according to Sterling, when you have a mutation for some reason you need extra thiamine, biotin, and Vit K, and you would be likely to have difficulty with starches?

And of course, I discovered on Promethease that I do indeed have the gene and am homozygous, so there are problems with folate metabolism. Also I have just begun a new --this is real this time:gluten-free diet. That is to say, no grains, and for the moment no cross-reactive stuff either.

To top it off: Since more folate yesterday didn't stop my IBS and loose stool, I decided to actively wonder if it was a folate deficiency OR the beta blocker I've been taking for nearly two years at a half of the lowest possible dose and sure enough, diarrhea is one of the side effects, particularly for people with arthritis, etc. I stopped it today as I've had my doubts about what exactly it was doing anyway when I'm largely a-symptomatic except with low potassium.

So. That's my story! Still trying to unravel the knot.

Tell me how high you've gotten on the B2 and how long you've been at it...!

Hi Kath,

I don't know much about beta blockers. I hope it goes well for you coming off them. I always prefer not to take medication, if at all possible.

I'm on b2 since last day of March so just a bit over two weeks. I began on 12.5mg and every few days upped it by another 12.5mg. Stayed on 37.5mg for longer and just upped to 50mg a few days ago, jumped to 75mg today and want to get to 100mg just to see if I can further lower the mfolate and potassium, which so far I have been able to lower a good bit. No consistent improvement yet, but I'm getting the odd day of symptom relief and lots of energy followed by a crash the following day where I slouch around feeling achy and drowsy and mostly read, trying not to nod off! I think my problem is that I overdo things on the energy days. Similar to you in that regard! I do wish I could tolerate the Adocbl a bit better for the energy benefits, but instead it makes me worse these days - I might try upping the biotin more. I see you take 1000mcg. I only take 100ug.

The great thing about the b2 for me is the switch around in cicardian rhythm. I now sleep at a normal time and wake early in the morning whereas it had got to the stage, before b2, where I couldn't sleep until 5 or 6 in the morning.

I went gluten-free after a gut biopsy for coeliac disease proved positive, about 6 years ago, but I never noticed any improvement in my symptoms even though the consultant gastroenterologist assured me 'your life will change. You will achieve significant symptom relief'. I do keep strictly to the diet though. I don't want to do any more damage than is already going on from the b12 and thyroid mess.

Do you happen to know if Betaine HCL with pepsin is good for us folk with low stomach acid? I don't seem to be absorbing minerals and vitamins any better with the g-free diet.

 

[impossible]

Some people have trouble sleeping after taking B12, but not me. I can't sleep unless I DO take it. Even with two doses of oil at bedtime, it often wears off after a few hours. I wake at 3-4 AM with agitation and twitching muscles, and often with nightmarish mental state. I can't get back to sleep until I take some B12.

Gary, have you considered that your positive response to and need for b12 could be immunological and not so physiological? It really seems to me like youre quelling an inflammatory fire with it and the details fit that theory quite well. My experiences are similiar and nothing works as well as b12 as an antiinflammatory for me.

Perhaps you could try other similarly acting potent antiinflammatories, a thorough elimination diet, or see a good doc that knows how to look for gut bugs or anything else that could cause that.

Thanks for the heads up on the oil, i just popped on pr for the first time in a while and wound up reading the whole thread. I will be ordering some today.

 

[Kathevans]

I see you take 1000mcg. I only take 100ug.

Hi Athene,
Actually I'm cutting down a bit today. Probably on everything. In fact, I was up most of the night with my symptoms, though ultimately, it was a small dose FMN B2 that relieved them sufficiently to enable me to return to sleep for a couple of hours.

I've been thinking about the whole methylation cycle and how once you start things, just stopping the supps for a day doesn't necessarily mean what you've done to 'drive' your system will stop right away. I think this is especially true for the B12. In any case, I used the B12 Oils for 2 days running and ended up overwhelmed with muscular tighness-shoulders, neck, face, and thinking about @Gondwanaland's post about her husband's headaches, caused by the B12, relieved by B2. And her disarmingly simple statement that the methyls you have floating through your system, the more B2 you need. Of course. And certainly anyone with snps in MTHFR, MTRR, and MAO. These genes want folate, or B12 or B2 and in each case, it's the B2 that activates them. At least that's how I understand it.

If you eat a good diet--as Greg says, 'drink some orange juice' for folate, then take the B2 and you'll get the benefit from the folate that you need. Likewise for B-12. @Asklipia eats sheep brains, I think! @globalpilot posted on an old thread I'd been following: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...atric-cns-disorders.28189/page-14#post-716709

I take four supplements mostly. Biotin (BTD), FMN (MAOA, MAOB, MTRR, MTHFR), Magnesium (COMT) and P5P (GAD1). I also changed my environment. Low amine, low protein, low glutamate, low stress. The only one I take everyday is Biotin.

The post was by ppodjahski who is no longer on the forum, but he was a proponent of Nutrigenomics, the study of the crossroads of genetics, supplements and diet, and I admired his thought process. In any case, he's not the only one who says that taking some of these supps daily is unnecessary. So does Dr. Ben Lynch.

Oh well. Still fumbling around.

Athene, you've mentioned that you're a celiac, which many here suffer from--or the less serious gluten sensitivities. My family is in this category, and have struggled with pain issues for years. @ahmo's recent post that included links to gluten cross-reactive substances was a more than worthwhile read and I'll post it again here.

http://www.thepaleomom.com/2013/03/...re-eating-gluten-even-after-giving-it-up.html

My brother-in-law also sent me a terrific podcast that reinforces these findings:

http://justinhealth.com/dr-peter-osborne-no-grain-no-pain-podcast-88/?
inf_contact_key=736187a3e1ee781ca30b21599175e5da9fa31eab8008163ce94a3144edb3b69a

I hope the link works. There's apparently a genetic test you can have that tells you exactly what you might be cross-reactive to, so you won't be cutting out stuff you don't need to...

 

[Gondwanaland]

Low amine, low protein, low glutamate, low stress. The only one I take everyday is Biotin.

I took Biotin for 3 days and it severely depleted me of B6 (hives all over, swollen mucosa in mouth and breathing system (anaphylaxis) and couldn't tolerate meat. It all disappeared after taking P5P. Then I took P5P for 3 days and got severe numbness in my legs. Then I took MB12

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland Yes! Great emoji. I'm beginning to feel just like you. I'm just trying to back down and let symptoms settle. Maybe a very low basic B. Maybe not. This is just too stressful And never ending...

Having stopped the beta blocker, maybe some issues will become clearer. For the moment, my face is not feeling as if it's in a vise and right now, that makes me extremely happy.

 

[Gondwanaland]

This is just too stressful And never ending...

I am definetly taking a break from the B's AGAIN

 

[Kathevans]

You make me smile... Thanks.

 

[Methhead81]

Has anyone had good experiences using the B Group Spray? I am thinking of ordering it with the MethylB12 spray. It also contains Adenosylb12 so that is a plus.