Thirst for MFolate, those that have ramped up

[SwanRonson]

It is cholagogue, which helps with constipation. It can also be a goitrogen.

Do you just eat more artichoke? Or is there some sort of supplemental derivative?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I spent a week adding one whole small artichoke to my dinner and at the end of this period I tested my T3 and it was below range and I was feeling weak. No great impact in my BMs.

I have a supplement which combines milk thistle, artichoke, dandelion and curcuma, but I haven't given it a go yet. I just took 1/3 of a capsule 3x in separate days. No observable effect. When I start taking a whole capsule in a consistent way I will update.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Last year I gave a try with artichoke leaf tea, but at that time I wasn't tolerating nitrates and could not tolerate the tea.

 

[sregan]

Very interesting.

With regards to the last part about quitting without negative effects, I've often wondered how it would go with pulsing the higher doses. Everybody says something similar, that the first few days are great, then the negatives come. I just wonder how it would go with doing 2 days (maybe Sunday/Monday) at a higher dose, then the rest of the week off. If that cycle was repeated weekly I wonder if you could get the benefits without the predictable difficulties down the line.

Is the artichoke for diarrhea or constipation?

Neither for me, it is to help my liver make bile. A side effect has been a normal color and consistency returning to my stool. I'm hoping the net effect is to keep my body from trying to recycle bile (and the toxic junk along with it). If I got enough raw materials to make bile hopefully it will slow down the Enterohepatic circulation of bile.

Supplement is Jarrow Artichoke

 

[sregan]

Could be. Kick-starting your metabolic processes frequently provokes the body into some kind of "clean out".

Have you ever done any chelation? Might want to think about it whether you have or haven't, if you've recently removed all your amalgams. Now THERE is something that will definitely make you feel like crap while you're doing it.

I had my last 2 removed a couple years ago but wouldn't be surprised if I have a substantial body burden of Hg due to having amalgams most of my life since childhood.

From your feedback I'm betting it did do you some long-term good. But your bod is telling you to back off so just go with that.

A pattern for me with a lot of stuff is that I can't tolerate it at first, so I have to leave it and do some other things to build myself up. Then circle back around to the offending substance(s). When I come back tolerance is remarkably improved. One notable thing this happened with is iodine...I had an awful time with it when I first started. So I quit, chelated, went back, and then it did me a whole lot of good.

LCF is another thing leaving off it for a while did me some good, although I didn't intentionally leave off of that. I just forgot to take it for a while then realized I wasn't feeling so good and remembered I hadn't had it for a while. When I went back to it I realized much more benefit from it and was able to ramp my dosage up quickly from about 250mg/day to 1000mg/day (the max known effective dose).

I may ramp back up. I have found a nice stable place and am feeling good. I'm gonna do some more research for a while and when/if I ramp back up I'll know a lot more for the next attempt.

 

[whodathunkit]

@sregan: you mean ramping with LCF or mfolate? I wouldn't bother ramping mfolate unless you start having sides again. Stability is the goal. Wish I could have found that at 10mg/day instead of 40mg/day. Lot easier on the wallet.

LCF, OTOH, might benefit from some ramping (up to 1000mg/day) when you're comfy. But probably no rush with that.

 

[sregan]

@sregan: you mean ramping with LCF or mfolate? I wouldn't bother ramping mfolate unless you start having sides again. Stability is the goal. Wish I could have found that at 10mg/day instead of 40mg/day. Lot easier on the wallet.

Ramping up Mfolate. I do think there's merit in ramping up LCF somewhat before you get really high on Mfolate. Might not need as much mfolate if the LCF is higher I'm thinking. Maybe also with more cofactors like Lithium might not need as much Mfolate as it seems these would make better use of the mfolate you have.

LCF, OTOH, might benefit from some ramping (up to 1000mg/day) when you're comfy. But probably no rush with that.

I might try that, sounds along the lines of what I'm talking about. I'm at 1600 mcg of Mfolate per day in the AM with 2400 mcg of MB12.

 

[Darius]

I have vision issues because of high cortisol. Allot of floaters, and bright light (day time sky) causes squigglies and flashes. Eye doctor says everything looks okay. I think the high cortisol is caused by the high NO levels. High cortisol causes collagen breakdown in the vitreous and eye sensitivity. I believe low cortisol can do the same.

Oh, and by the way, the floaters shouldn't be visible if eye sensitivity returns to normal. But when they are sensitive, you can see every one of them.

Oh please check info then wrote your theories,
studies show opposite that collagen synthesis increase risk of detachment
M M Le Gof et.al "Adult vitreous structure and postnatal changes"

vitreopathy is halted by decreasing collagen synthesis

González-Avila et.al
"Influence on collagen metabolism of vitreous from eyes with proliferative vitreoretinopathy."
The same in myopia (floaters are caused by myopia) myopic eye contain high collagen in vitreous "The cortical vitreous contained abundant newly formed collagen, including fibrous long-spacing collagen, surrounded by sparsely distributed native vitreous collagen"

Ishida S et.al
"Macular hole retinal detachment in highly myopic eyes: ultrastructure of surgically removed epiretinal membrane and clinicopathologic correlation"

What more studies mostly show that cortisol decrease collagen type 1 breakdown yet vitreous have mostly type II collagen. Second any studies link glucorticosteroids with floaters

 

[Johnmac]

The only thing I know about kidney/adrenal pain is that it supposedly can be caused by bringing out cadmium too quickly. Zinc can supposedly do this, as can heavy metal chelation:

Dr Walsh: "Taking too much zinc can remove cadmium too quickly, damaging kidney tubules."

According to Dr Cutler, DMSA & possibly alpha lipoic acid can chelate out cadmium.

I get kidney? adrenal? pain when I chelate with ALA & DMSA; neutralising the pH of the kidneys by taking bicarb fixes it. I believe a neutral kidney pH is needed for the Cd to leave the kidneys, rather than build up in them.

This may have no relevance to you at all, @sregan. I don't know if Cd can be brought out or dumped in the kidneys by any of the other agents you are taking, & I don't know if anyone knows. Some say vitamin C. Some also say that detoxing Cd causes flu-like symptoms & emotional ups & downs - but I don't know if that's true.

 

[Johnmac]

I'm heading in your direction re m-folate @silverseas2014, but am a fair way behind you.

I'd be interested to hear how you're going now, half a year or more down the track...

Hello. I am working on "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate (Solgar's Metafolin). I am currently taking a total of 14,000mcg in two doses: one 7,000 mcg in the morning and one 7,000 mcg in the afternoon. (I use the 1,000mcg tablets of Solgar's Metafolin).

Before I did this, I did a trial run (with lots of logging of symptoms, etc.) of simply how much Methylfolate I could tolerate comfortably. Over a week or so, I worked up to 20,000 mcg a day and felt ok. There were some mild headaches ---for those, I would take Potassium and/or Niacinamide (I don't use regular Niacin)---and both those seemed to get rid of of the headaches. I largely think it was taking lots of Potassium Gluconate as I did this that helped mitigate side-effects.

Why did I settle on 14,000 mcg/day of Metafolin for my "Penetrative Dose"? I was not sure that there was much difference in how I felt when I took (roughly) 14,000 mcg and 20,000 mcg. I am going to repeat this ramping up experiment in another week or so---with 14,000 mcg being the baseline and see how I feel as I go up and up.

It's important to note that I was and am taking large doses of Methyl B12 (Webber Naturals--I've recently switched to Webber after taking Solgar's Methylcobalamin for the last few years.--Webber is much cheaper and seems just as effective). I was and still do take approximately twice as much Methyl B12 as Methylfolate---why? My body simply seems to need it and my body seems to respond very well to much of it.

Additionally, I take Dibencozide once a week (although I am experimenting with the doses as I write--you know, the Big Gorilla in the room). I take a large dose of Dibencozide --about 50 mg. (Source Naturals 10 mg./tablet). I spread the 50 mg. throughout the day---I generally have quite a bright day when I do this. I am going to experiment with taking the Dibencozide only once a week away from the Methylcobalamin--as Freddd has suggested. I did that just once and had a great day---felt absolutely energetic and cheerful.

Finally, I take L-Carnitine Fumarate (Dr.'s Best). I take one capsule with each dose of Methylfolate (so, two caps a day). I will stay on this dose until I finish with the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate.

So, what is the point of taking the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate? For me, at 52, my body has been limping along with folic acid and cobalamin since I began taking in nutrients. With my SNPS (see below) you can see that I have NOT been functioning optimally for my whole life (since I was conceived!)..... I want my body to function OPTIMALLY---that is, I want to have excellent, robust good health --mentally, physically, spiritually--I want the whole enchilada. And to do that I have to heal myself---every cell, every organ, every body system---And to do THAT, I need a lot of Methylfolate and a lot of Methylb12. I literally want to saturate my body with Methylfolate and Methyl B12 and let the healing begin.

So, how long do I take the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate? As long as my body seems to need it to heal---I suspect it is far longer than a few days or a few weeks. I think I am looking a minimum of months (6 months) to a year or even a few years. I don't know. And I think everyone is different with regard to this protocol. Everyone is starting it at a different age, with different SNPS --each person has to do their own experiments and log, log, log.

For myself, I am not going to start and stop this protocol. I want to saturate my body with Methylfolate and Methylcobalamin (and all supportive supplements) and KEEP IT saturated. And watch closely to see what happens. .... I've run out of room here, but it's enough. Cheers, Silverseas2014

 

[silverseas2014]

Hi @Johnmac.... I am still doing penetrative doses. Generally, I am finding a slow trend toward a more robust immune system-- I had six months over the past winter with NO infections/colds etc --this is unheard of in my house!
Since then, I have had a couple of illnesses (thanks to kids and travelling)--and in both cases felt I got better more quickly and the head funk/fuzz/brainfog crap was only minimal even when sick. This is all subjective of course, but I feel this is an improvement in my health--something I have not felt in a decade of trying various things to improve immunity.

My doses for the Deadlock Quartet are as follows: I've been at these since July 5th (I log everything):

MethylB12 (Webber Naturals now Kirkland): 80,000 mcg a day (8 tablets twice a day)
Dibencozide (Source Naturals): 1/4 tablet a day
Methylfolate (Solgar's Metafolin): 50 mg a day (1000 mccg tablets) (25 tablets twice a day)
L-Carnitine Fumarate (Doctor's Best): 855 mg (1 capsule once a day)

Additionally, I also take the following every day to support the DQ:

Potassium Gluconate (Bulk Supplements): close to 4,700 mg a day in divided doses with OJ
Lithium Orotate (Advanced Research): 3/4 tablet a day (1/2 tablet in morning, 1/4 tablet at night)


I also take all the other B vitamins as well. I take each one individually as I have not found an adequate B-Complex that has them all in the right doses--specifically B1, B2 and B3 at about 30 mg a day. Additionally, I do not do well with B6 and only take 1-2 mg/week.C


Several new things I have been experimenting with are:
Probiotics and Resistant Starches---I feel a robust gut is only going to support the absorption of all these supplements.
Liposomal Vitamin C

Cheers,
Silverseas2014

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks @silverseas2014.

I was principally wondering if you still needed those huge doses of methylfolate. It seems the answer is 'Yes'.

I was wondering this because m-f is expensive, & was trying to work out how long people had to stay on the big doses before they filled all the crevices & could scale it down again (as I think @ahmo has done after 6 or 12 months?)

So you're obviously no longer taking twice the B12 as the folate? Why the change in ratio?

Finally, what's the philosophy behind 'penetrative doses'? How are penetrative doses different from just ramping up slowly till you hit your max?

Thanks for the response!

Hi @Johnmac.... I am still doing penetrative doses. Generally, I am finding a slow trend toward a more robust immune system-- I had six months over the past winter with NO infections/colds etc --this is unheard of in my house!
Since then, I have had a couple of illnesses (thanks to kids and travelling)--and in both cases felt I got better more quickly and the head funk/fuzz/brainfog crap was only minimal even when sick. This is all subjective of course, but I feel this is an improvement in my health--something I have not felt in a decade of trying various things to improve immunity.

My doses for the Deadlock Quartet are as follows: I've been at these since July 5th (I log everything):

MethylB12 (Webber Naturals now Kirkland): 80,000 mcg a day (8 tablets twice a day)
Dibencozide (Source Naturals): 1/4 tablet a day
Methylfolate (Solgar's Metafolin): 50 mg a day (1000 mccg tablets) (25 tablets twice a day)
L-Carnitine Fumarate (Doctor's Best): 855 mg (1 capsule once a day)

Additionally, I also take the following every day to support the DQ:

Potassium Gluconate (Bulk Supplements): close to 4,700 mg a day in divided doses with OJ
Lithium Orotate (Advanced Research): 3/4 tablet a day (1/2 tablet in morning, 1/4 tablet at night)


I also take all the other B vitamins as well. I take each one individually as I have not found an adequate B-Complex that has them all in the right doses--specifically B1, B2 and B3 at about 30 mg a day. Additionally, I do not do well with B6 and only take 1-2 mg/week.C


Several new things I have been experimenting with are:
Probiotics and Resistant Starches---I feel a robust gut is only going to support the absorption of all these supplements.
Liposomal Vitamin C

Cheers,
Silverseas2014

 

[silverseas2014]

Hey @Johnmac--

Yes, I still think penetrative doses are beneficial. At this dose of Methylfolate (50 mg/day) I have experienced a recession of "symptoms"---and for me these symptoms are: Anxiety, Anger, Apathy, some Angular Cheilitis, Fatigue)....

Yes. Methylfolate at these doses is absurdly expensive --but far less expensive than being perpetually sick. For right now, fortunately, I can afford these doses.

@whodathunkit has also done very high penetrative doses (as well as @Freddd and others) to good effect, and then stepped down--gradually-- to be stable at a much lower dose. This is my goal as well. I first wanted to reach a stable penetrative dose, and I think I have done that at 50 mg./day. I intend to stay at this dose for a minimum of nine months, and hopefully no longer than a year. At nine months, I intend to try "stepping-down" the dose and will see if the above symptoms come back.

Why nine months? I don't know---I can't remember what @whodathunkit wrote about how long she was at her highest dose---maybe she will chime in here. If @Freddd is still around maybe he could comment about how long he stayed at his highest dose. For my part, I feel like I am re-building my body with the DQ --and that cannot be done in a month of high doses... nine months to grow a human baby.... nine months to give me a BOLUS of good nutrients to get my body on the right track..... This is ALL guesswork/feeling my way to health..... I am prepared to go longer than nine months if the "step-down" trial indicates I still need to be at this dose.

My daily dose of MethylB12 is 80mg/day.... so my ratio of MethylB12 to Methylfolate is about 1.3 to 1.0???? Does that sound about right? I am terrible with math. OK.... I strive for that ratio largely based on feelings of peripheral neuropathy.....At this dose I don't feel tingling in fingers and toes.... I could probably take a far larger dose and be fine. But I can't go lower than a 1:1 ratio with the Methylfolate or I start feeling tingling.

My philosophy behind penetrative doses: It's a constantly unfolding idea. @Freddd got me thinking about what my body needed after 52 years of not being able to make Methylfolate in adequate amounts. I am intent upon becoming robustly healthy. I don't believe trickling small amounts of the DQ in my body is going to heal all the damage done. Can I heal my body totally in nine months? No. Maybe the point of the penetrative doses is just to heal it enough so that it can continue healing with smaller doses.

I hope this helps....that some of it makes sense.
Cheers,
Silverseas2014

 

[ahmo]

@Freddd got me thinking about what my body needed after 52 years of not being able to make Methylfolate in adequate amounts.

Yes, this is what I feel happened for me, replacing life-long deficits.

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks! It makes a lot of sense.

Your reply forced me to ask myself if whether (after decades of batterings) I still have the strength to hope for 100% health. I hope so!

The first hint that I, too, may have a years-old folate deficiency came a couple of years ago, when beginning m-folate evaporated a massive reaction to thiol foods, after a year of HM chelation.

Thereafter, folate seemed to exacerbate anxiety at times - tho LCF was the basic culprit - so I grew wary, & took less. All the big FP gains slowly melted away.

I think I have the hang of it now: keep increasing. Tho I sure hope I don't have to go up to your doses (-$$).

I seem okay with (daily) 5mg B12 & 3600 mcg m-folate presently.

Does anyone know an alternative m-folate supplier to Solgar? iHerb is presently out of stock, plus they are a bit expensive anyway.

 

[silverseas2014]

Glad it helps @Johnmac...

Last night I was thinking about what @Freddd wrote about "layers of healing" and his ideas that small amounts of Methylfolate (and the DQ) do NOT begin to get to the deepest layers (are we talking tissues here??) of our bodies without the penetrative doses of Methylfolate (and DQ).

I think my philosophy of penetrative doses comes from this idea:

I was born with several folate snps that prevented me from healing from life's normal illnesses (colds, flus, ear infections, etc. etc.) quickly, easily and completely (i.e. normally--what a robust immune system could do). ... As I got older, my ability to heal/bounce back from each illness got slower and less effective. Why? Each year I lived my body accumulated more crap (medical term for all the debris my body accumulates attempting to fight off illnesses and then cannot discard "normally" via urine, feces, sweat). .... It then has to store the crap in all the nooks and crannies of my body..... in the deep tissues of my body. [Are my tissues damaged from having suboptimal leves of methylfolate my whole life? and what impact does that have on my immune system?] My sub-optimal levels of methylfolate (levels that my body produces _without_ supplementation) have been working over-time since I was conceived, and could not keep up with normal detoxification tasks, and simply are NOT sufficient for getting and staying optimally well.

Two important things are happening with penetrative doses of Methylfolate (and DQ): 1) My body is beginning to dive down into all those tissue storage places and get rid of all the crap it couldn't get rid of my whole life (this is time-consuming/unpleasant sometimes---but with each "load" it helps excrete my metabolism (my "engine") becomes a little cleaner, a little more efficient. [My body tissues are healing from having an appropriate amount of methylfolate] And 2) As I progress through the protocol, my need for penetrative doses of Methylfolate diminishes (read: will diminish) ....why? My body needs less because it has "caught up" with all it's deep cleaning, and only needs a smaller, maintenance dose to keep my body from accumulating debris and doing other necessary chores for optimal health.

I wish I understood more clearly: What exactly is the damage caused to my body from having suboptimal levels of folate my whole life? How is this tissue damage related to my poor immune system? What does methylfolate do to heal my tissues? Is it related to producing more robust cells/tissues that simply function better?

@Johnmac: As you may have surmised, I am not a scientist.... I need a lot of help in understanding the biochemestry we are dealing with with these methylation issues. I think in terms of analogies. I hope these ideas do not cloud your thinking!

Cheers,
Silverseas2014

 

[silverseas2014]

@Johnmac

Some more thoughts:

On the damage caused by MTHFR snps (and associated snps):

Time. Time is a huge factor in how much damage we are each trying to heal. Time = Age. I don't know how old you are, but I at 52 I've been dealing with the fallout of these snps for half-a-century. More Time without adequate levels of the DQ (let's just say Methylfolate), the worse the damage.

Stress. There is good stress and bad stress. I am speaking of bad stress: unrelenting, decades-long stress (caused by alcoholic parents, debilitating health issues, A-type personality that wants to succeed, abusive use of stimulants to overcome fatigue caused by snps, miscarriages, unsupportive-demeaning doctors, exposure to pesticides throughout childhood/young adulthood, etc. etc). I think environmental factors can trigger the activation of genes.... so various bad stresses could trigger the activation of the MTHFR genes. And the opposite is possible: a calm, loving, normally stressful childhood/young adulthood could keep the MTHFR genes from activating. (I am hypothesizing here..... I am very unsure of whether or not the MTHFR genes are just ON from conception or if there is a spectrum of ON???).

Time x Bad Stress x MTHFR snps x (possibly Gender) = amount of Damage to Body

I could have exactly the same snps as you, but that does NOT mean we are going to have the same level of damage to our bodies. All the other factors of the equation are almost guaranteed to be different.

I bring this up because you may need far less Methylfolate for a shorter length of time than me---I am guessing because you are younger than me, and perhaps have had a less stressful life, that the damage to your body is less than mine. Your journey to healing may be much quicker than mine.

Gender. Gender may indeed play a role in how MTHFR snps affect each of us. I don't know. I only suspect that there might be an interplay.

Once again, @Johnmac, I hope I haven't completely muddied your mind.

Cheers,
Silverseas2014

 

[whodathunkit]

I think I have done that at 50 mg./day.

Yowzer. Truly $$$$orry about that.

I intend to stay at this dose for a minimum of nine months, and hopefully no longer than a year.

Just in case you're not thinking this (probably you are but just in case)...you might try stepping down a little before that. IIRC I tried to step down before 9 months but it turned out that was how long it took for me to be able to step down without getting symptoms. May be different for you. The goal is to stay at whatever dose above a normal person's level that is effective at keeping you stable, for as long as you have to take that dose, and no longer. It will likely vary for everyone who tries it this way. But just to try to mitigate the economic havoc the high-dose regimen can impart, you can try small step downs after you've been stable for a few months or so. Small steps shouldn't set you back seriously and may be beneficial to your wallet. At any rate, I think the worst that can happen is you'll just have to go back up.

 

[silverseas2014]

Yes, you$$$$er! And I appreciate your note about "stepping down a litte before" --I've had several "mini-step-downs" just to see if I really need to be at that 50 mg dose for a while, and yes, it seems I do---as my symptoms come back withn 3-4 days of the step-down.

Cheers,
Silverseas2014

Yowzer. Truly $$$$orry about that.


Just in case you're not thinking this (probably you are but just in case)...you might try stepping down a little before that. IIRC I tried to step down before 9 months but it turned out that was how long it took for me to be able to step down without getting symptoms. May be different for you. The goal is to stay at whatever dose above a normal person's level that is effective at keeping you stable, for as long as you have to take that dose, and no longer. It will likely vary for everyone who tries it this way. But just to try to mitigate the economic havoc the high-dose regimen can impart, you can try small step downs after you've been stable for a few months or so. Small steps shouldn't set you back seriously and may be beneficial to your wallet. At any rate, I think the worst that can happen is you'll just have to go back up.

 

[whodathunkit]

Hey @silverseas2014: just wondering, how long have you been stable at 50mg?