The Wonders of Prebiotics

[end]

@Star-Anise

"I have tried psyllium & don't respond well. I get very gassy & increased malaise with bloating as well, with none of the positive effects."

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The PREbiotics can be causing these symptoms, like Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride has warned.

You may have a high pathogenic load, which the PREbiotics are just FEEDING. Interestingly enough the SBO's/PRObiotics do not cause these problems for you.
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QUOTE="Star-Anise, post: 521868, member: 9128"]Hi all!
@Hip
Thanks for the useful information.

Working on suspected SIBO. Found some success with Garden of Life probiotic with Homeostatic Soil Organisms (HSOs). It was the best probiotic I had ever tried! As well have had great success with Unmodified potato starch, & have weaned myself off of all of the methylfolate I was on, & feeling far better.

However, I still noticed bloating in small intestine area & difficulty if my diet wasn't perfect, so I decided to try Larch.

After the first few doses - been trying 1/4 tsp one time per day, I noticed some general improvement in my upper gut, and mood improvement.

However, after those first few days, I have become increasingly gassy with pain, about 4-5 hours after I take the larch, and so very, very bloated.
I also have a headache & increased malaise.

I'm wondering detox? Too much too fast? Any feedback re: people's experiences with larch?

I also coincidentally ran out of probiotics around time I started larch. My plan is to resume asap. Get some more probiotics into me, and then while on the probiotics maybe try a smaller dose of larch.

Is there any other prebiotic that I should be trying 1st though? I have tried psyllium & don't respond well. I get very gassy & increased malaise with bloating as well, with none of the positive effects.

Any suggestions would be welcoming. I'm trying to avoid spending ++$$ and more pain/discomfort by trial/error, but maybe this is also just part of the process too....

All the very best to everyone,

S[/QUOTE]

"

 

[Hip]

Dr Natasha advises that prebiotics generally feed pathogens as well as beneficial microbes

I think the issue is not so much whether prebiotics feed that bad bacteria; it's whether they feed the good bacteria more.

Provided the prebiotics feed the good bacteria more than they feed the bad bacteria, then overall, taking prebiotics should help the good bacteria in your gut to dominate over the bad bacteria, which is what you want.

A quick Google search reveals that the prebiotic fructooligosaccharides (FOS) can lead to bloating from gas formation in the gut, assumed to be due to FOS fermentation by some potentially pathogenic bacterial species. This Wikipedia article on FOS states:

All inulin-type prebiotics, including FOS, are generally thought to stimulate the growth of Bifidobacteria species. Bifidobacteria are considered beneficial bacteria. This effect has not been uniformly found in all studies, both for Bifidobacteria and for other gut organisms. FOS are also fermented by numerous bacterial species in the intestine, including Klebsiella, E. coli and many Clostridium species, which can be pathogenic in the gut. These species are responsible mainly for the gas formation (hydrogen and carbon dioxide), which results after ingestion of FOS. Studies have shown that up to 20 grams/day is well tolerated.

So perhaps you may get some bloating, perhaps due to the bad bacteria also eating the FOS; but provided the overall result of taking FOS is a net increase in the good bacteria, there shouldn't be much of a problem.



This article says that there is little to no evidence to support the idea that prebiotics may feed the bad bacteria (so I am not sure what evidence Dr Campbell-McBride is referring to when she says that prebiotics do feed bad bacteria), and says that certain health experts claim FOS can feed both good bacteria and certain pathogenic microbes.

So if FOS has been singled out as the prebiotic that can potentially feed bad bacteria to a degree, one could simple chose another type of prebiotic, such as ispaghula husk (psyllium husk).

 

[end]

I think the issue is not so much whether prebiotics feed that bad bacteria; it's whether they feed the good bacteria more.

Provided the prebiotics feed the good bacteria more than they feed the bad bacteria, then overall, taking prebiotics should help the good bacteria in your gut to dominate over the bad bacteria, which is what you want.

A quick Google search reveals that the prebiotic fructooligosaccharides (FOS) can lead to bloating from gas formation in the gut, assumed to be due to FOS fermentation by some potentially pathogenic bacterial species. This Wikipedia article on FOS states:


So perhaps you may get some bloating, perhaps due to the bad bacteria also eating the FOS; but provided the overall result of taking FOS is a net increase in the good bacteria, there shouldn't be much of a problem.



This article says that there is little to no evidence to support the idea that prebiotics may feed the bad bacteria (so I am not sure what evidence Dr Campbell-McBride is referring to when she says that prebiotics do feed bad bacteria), and says that certain health experts claim FOS can feed both good bacteria and certain pathogenic microbes.

So if FOS has been singled out as the prebiotic that can potentially feed bad bacteria to a degree, one could simple chose another type of prebiotic, such as ispaghula husk (psyllium husk).

@Hip

I think your missing the point.

Those with a high pathogenic load(dysbiosis)WILL experience negative effects when supplementing with PREbiotics(ANY TYPE).

@Star-Anise on this very thread is a perfect example!!! --> doubting Dr McBride's advise is unwise. GAPS/pre/probiotics is all she has done which is based on the SCD diet, has been around almost a generation.

The problem with the studys you have quoted is that they are taken mostly from the general population.

CFS/MEers do NOT always respond like the general population does to supplements.

Dr Leo Galland another expert in GUT health explains the complex interaction regarding dysbiosis and prebiotic use. He advises to AVOID prebiotics when treating dysbiosis and simply use Cellulose(insoluble fiber)instead.

Interlinking views from experts in the field are unwise to simply dismiss.

 

[end]

http://mdheal.org/articles/word2/gastrointestinalisorder2.htm


"Fiber supplements have complex effects on gut permeability and bacterial composition. Low fiber diets increase permeability. Dietary supplementation with insoluble fiber, such as pure cellulose, decreases permeability. Dietary supplementation with highly soluble fibre sources, such as fruit pectin or guar gum, has a biphasic effect. At low levels it reverses the hyperpermeability of low residue diets, probably by a mechanical bulking effect which stimulates synthesis of mucosal growth factors. At high levels of supplementation, it produces hyperpermeability, probably by inducing synthesis of bacterial enzymes that degrade intestinal mucins[148-151]. For maximum benefit with regard to intestinal permeability, dietary fiber supplementation should therefore contain a predominance of insoluble fiber."

Dr Leo Galland in his book "Power Healing" delves much more deeply into the negatives regarding PREbiotic use and dysbiosis.

So does Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride in her book "Gut And Psychology Syndrome".

 

[Hip]

I think your missing the point.

Those with a high pathogenic load(dysbiosis)WILL experience negative effects when supplementing with PREbiotics(ANY TYPE).

What's the actual evidence for that statement? Are there any published studies which demonstrate that giving prebiotics to those with intestinal dysbiosis (which is where where the populations of harmful bacteria or fungi in the large intestine outweigh the populations of beneficial bacteria) leads to negative effects?

This review paper, in its conclusion, states the opposite of what you suggested:

"Finally, the growing body of evidence for the suitability of prebiotics in immunomodulation and formulation with probiotic strains, as synbiotics, represents a realistic approach in disease modification. The probiotic species acting as a quick-fix immunomodulatory “plaster” and the prebiotic facilitating commensal organisms, modulating the dysbiosis in the gut microbiota and further modifying the immune system to our benefit—healing from within!!"

 

[end]

What's the actual evidence for that statement? Are there any published studies which demonstrate that giving prebiotics to those with intestinal dysbiosis (which is where where the populations of harmful bacteria or fungi in the large intestine outweigh the populations of beneficial bacteria) leads to negative effects?

This review paper, in its conclusion, states the opposite of what you suggested:

You have evidence on YOUR OWN THREAD by a CFS/MEer stating that PREbiotics were detrimental to her health, which you have chosen to ignore:

Posted by @Star-Anise

"I have tried psyllium & don't respond well. I get very gassy & increased malaise with bloating as well, with none of the positive effects."

Which highlight Dr Galland and McBrides experience. You beleive there wrong that is fine, and that is where I will leave it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I do worse with both prebiotics and most probiotics. My take on it is because they are immune boosters and I have an autoimmune disease. The last thing I need is immunity boosters.

 

[Sammy]

What's the actual evidence for that statement? Are there any published studies which demonstrate that giving prebiotics to those with intestinal dysbiosis (which is where where the populations of harmful bacteria or fungi in the large intestine outweigh the populations of beneficial bacteria) leads to negative effects?

This review paper, in its conclusion, states the opposite of what you suggested:

Doctor Leo Galland in reference to prebiotics - "At high levels of supplementation, it produces hyperpermeability, probably by inducing synthesis of bacterial enzymes that degrade intestinal mucins[148-151]."

http://mdheal.org/articles/word2/gastrointestinalisorder2.htm

 

[jepps]

I do worse with both prebiotics and most probiotics. My take on it is because they are immune boosters and I have an autoimmune disease. The last thing I need is immunity boosters.

Gondwanaland, could the dose make the poison? Maybe the difficulty with autoimmunity is: to find the switch to stimulate the immune answer a little little bit, but not so much to respond with to much inflammation. I´ve a friend with autoimmunity who responded with inflammation to prebiotics for 3 months, and now she has less inflammation than the last years (I had the same experience). But I do not mean at all, you should take prebiotics despite of inflammation, but maybe a small bit of inflammation because of an activated immune system could support you.
Regards, jepps

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sammy could you please post a link to that statement of Dr. Galland? It makes sense to me.

@jepps I need prebiotics to help with chronic constipation and the dose low enough to avid inflammation isn't high enough to stimulate bowel movements.

I have an unopened jar of LAG at home. I can't bring myself to open it after reading the consumers' reviews at iHerb. They all take it with the intent of boosting immunity.

For psyllium for instance my effective dose is 1/2 tsp 2x daily, but that causes too much joint pain. As @Sidereal stated at the RS challenge thread, it has a cummulative effect, so now even the tiniest doses cause a lot of inflammation.

 

[jepps]

@jepps I need prebiotics to help with chronic constipation and the dose low enough to avid inflammation isn't high enough to stimulate bowel movements.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you find another fibre: cognac root, apple pectine or citrus pectine, which you can try? Or oat bran? Kresser writes, who does not respond well to probiotics and prebiotics, needs it the most.
My girlfriend (CFS+lyme+fibromyalgia) has SIBO, and she responded bad to RS (1 tsp)+prebiotics (agave fibre and psyllium), but she responded very well to slippery elm. But now after 3 months she responds well to RS+prebiotics, and will raise the dose. Maybe slippery elm could help with constipation, it also helps with leaky gut.

For psyllium for instance my effective dose is 1/2 tsp 2x daily, but that causes too much joint pain. As @Sidereal stated at the RS challenge thread, it has a cummulative effect, so now even the tiniest doses cause a lot of inflammation.[/QUOTE]

GAPS worsened my constipation, probiotics+prebiotics+RS helped with constipation and with candida.

Regards, jepps

 

[Hip]

Doctor Leo Galland in reference to prebiotics - "At high levels of supplementation, it produces hyperpermeability, probably by inducing synthesis of bacterial enzymes that degrade intestinal mucins[148-151]."

I don't see how that provides any evidence that prebiotics increase pathogenic bacteria in the gut, Sammy.

The discussion with @end is about Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride's views that prebiotics may increase pathogenic bacterial populations. What you are quoting refers to the effects of prebiotics on intestinal permeability.



In any case, your quote is taken a bit out of context: the full paragraph that your Dr Leo Galland quote came from is this:

Fiber supplements have complex effects on gut permeability and bacterial composition.

Low fibre diets increase permeability.

Dietary supplementation with insoluble fibre, such as pure cellulose, decreases permeability.

Dietary supplementation with highly soluble fibre sources, such as fruit pectin or guar gum, has a biphasic effect. At low levels they reverse the hyperpermeability of low residue diets, probably by a mechanical bulking effect which stimulates synthesis of mucosal growth factors. At high levels of supplementation, they produce hyperpermeability, probably by inducing synthesis of bacterial enzymes which degrade intestinal mucins[148-151].

For maximum benefit with regard to intestinal permeability, dietary fibre supplementation should therefore contain a predominance of hypoallergenic insoluble fibre.

Source: here.

So this increase in intestinal hyperpermeability only applies to highly soluble fiber like fruit pectin, and only applies when high quantities of this highly soluble fiber are taken.

When low amounts of highly soluble fiber are taken, it actually acts to heal intestinal permeability, according to Dr Galland.

And he says insoluble fiber always decreases intestinal permeability.

 

[Hip]

You have evidence on YOUR OWN THREAD by a CFS/MEer stating that PREbiotics were detrimental to her health, which you have chosen to ignore

If an ME/CFS patient feels worse from taking prebiotics and/or probiotics, that does not automatically imply it is because of an increase in pathogenic bacteria. There are many reasons why taking prebiotics and/or probiotics could make a patient feel worse. Friendly bacteria synthesize a number of compounds, like lactate, butyrate, vitamin K2; and friendly bacteria modulate the immune system (they can increase secretory IgA for example); any of these effects of friendly bacteria might conceivably be responsible for making some patients feel worse, and indeed, making others feel better.

Which highlight Dr Galland and McBrides experience. You beleive there wrong that is fine, and that is where I will leave it.

I am just asking for supporting evidence which backs up the assertion that prebiotics can increase the number of pathogenic bacteria in the gut. If you say these doctors are making statements like this, then I presume they must have evidence for it.

If they are just saying that prebiotics can make some patients feel worse, then that's a perfectly acceptable observation; we know just from reading these forums that prebiotics (and probiotics) can make many patients feel worse.

But if these doctors are specifically saying that prebiotics can increase the populations of bad bacteria in the gut, then I would like to know where they got this information.

 

[jepps]

When low amounts of highly soluble fiber are taken, it actually acts to heal intestinal permeability, according to Dr Galland.

Paul Jaminet claims the same in his PHD-book: low amounts of several vegetables (with soluble fibres) heal the gut, high amounts of the same vegetable act as toxin, as each vegetable (and each fibre) creates its own toxin (natural pesticide) to protect itself. We should eat many different vegetables in small quantities - and many different fibres in small quantities.

 

[Hip]

low amounts of several vegetables (with soluble fibres) heal the gut, high amounts of the same vegetable act as toxin, as each vegetable (and each fibre) creates its own toxin (natural pesticide) to protect itself.

Lectins are one of these natural pesticides that plants make to protect themselves from insects and pests. Lectins from beans and vegetables have been shown to increase leaky gut, though interestingly, taking sugar (sucrose) at the same time as these vegetables actually reduces the toxic effect of lectins on gut permeability. 1

A list of other factors that promote or protect against leaky gut is found here.

 

[South]

Here is a site discussing inulin as a problem when there is an issue with klebsiella or candida (both of which are pathogenic) scroll down on the page looking for the words klebsiella and candida:
http://www.naturalnews.com/022356_inulin_food_ingredients.html

I don't think most people are going to say "avoid all soluble fiber/prebiotic substances forever if you have any suspicion of candida or any bad bacteria overgrowth", I think the point of some of this thread is that those who suspect candida overgrowth or bad bacteria overgrowth could use soluble fiber but would need to go very, very slowly with adding it in - and possibly also take other substances to kill some of the bad guys at the same time. The websites about the SCD diet or GAPS diet might argue with me, but I think many people will support this compromise view.

It's like a lawn, any lawn has a few weeds, some lawns have lots of weeds. Sprinkle fertilizer on any lawn, the weeds will grow just like the grass will. The trick may be to find other things to do to kill off some of the weeds without killing the grass, while at the same time (slowly) fertilizing the whole lawn - and after much time doing both, the grass will outnumber the weeds.

Not sure if my over simplified post helps anyone, but this is how I think about this topic.

 

[Hip]

Here is a site discussing inulin as a problem when there is an issue with klebsiella or candida (both of which are pathogenic) scroll down on the page looking for the words klebsiella and candida:
http://www.naturalnews.com/022356_inulin_food_ingredients.html

Thanks for the link to that article.

However, its contents appear to be unsubstantiated. The article says that:

Recent studies have shown that inulin/FOS encourages the growth of Klebsiella.

But the article does not provide any references to back up its claim that inulin/FOS encourages the growth of Klebsiella. And I searched Google Scholar to look for studies demonstrating that inulin/FOS could promote Klebsiella, but could not find any.

Though I did find this murine study which found that inulin had a beneficial effect in reducing the translocation of Klebsiella from the intestines to other organs (kidneys, liver and spleen).

In other words, the study found that taking inulin decreased the risk of Klebsiella spreading from the intestines to other organs in the body. Generally Klebsiella does not cause much of a problem in the intestines, but can cause serious problems if it spreads to other organs.

 

[South]

@Hip I guess some people are choosing to go by heresay. Unfortunately, if the studies haven't been formally done it may be because no one has come up with the money to do the study. And if some people get bad reactions to a prebiotic, we are all guessing why that bad reaction occurred. Just trying to help.

 

[ljimbo423]

I started taking inulin a couple of months ago. Initially I had a very bad reaction to it, but I have had initial bad reactions to many supplements that have helped me. I started at 500mg a day and went up 500mg a day. By day 3 or 4 I was experiencing significant die-off and felt miserable.

I cut back and have slowly worked my way up to 4.5 gms a day. I have noticed a definite increase in energy and it stopped my diarrhea predominent IBS within a week or so. I had a CDSA (comprehensive digestive stool analysis) done a few years ago and my dysbiosis index was an 18 out of 20.

Zero being no dysbiosis at all and 20 was the testing limit, so I have no doubt that I had servere dysbiosis when I started the inulin. So my experience tells me that it does help even severe dysbiosis. Hope this is helpful to somebody.

 

[Hip]

I guess some people are choosing to go by heresay.

Yeah I guess that is the case.