The Wonders of Prebiotics

[NilaJones]

I've started eating prunes for constipation, since I stopped taking magnesium, and they are working very well.

I've been using tapioca starch since the fall. I take maybe 1/4 teaspoon twice a week or so. More often and I get aggravation of my viral symptoms. I don't know if that is immune activation or what.

I'm also taking ortho-biotic about twice a week. I love the stuff. And it loves mushrooms -- makes me want to eat them. Not massive quantities, but I eat about as many mushrooms in a week now as I would have in 6 months or a year, previously.

And vitamin C / fruit. I can't seem to get enough of that.

This makes me wonder what other personal tastes and food preferences people have that are a result of individual gut biome.

The bugs don't seem to care one way or another about the tapioca. At least, they don't make me crave it. So I may stop.

I've just started on larch. Based on people's experiences in the long thread, I am starting with a tiny speck daily. No reaction so far.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I've been using tapioca starch since the fall. I take maybe 1/4 teaspoon twice a week or so. More often and I get aggravation of my viral symptoms. I don't know if that is immune activation or what.

How do you take the tapioca starch? Is it a prebiotic?

 

[NilaJones]

How do you take the tapioca starch? Is it a prebiotic?

It's a resistant starch. (Are all resistant starches also prebiotics? I am feeling confused right now.)

It's mentioned in the long resistant starch thread, several times. Mostly used by people who can't have potatoes, I think, but I used it because I HAD some already in the kitchen, and I didn't want to wait to get potato starch .

I just mixed it in water and drank it. It's pretty flavorless.

 

[Little Bluestem]

@NilaJones, Thanks. I couldn't keep up with the long resistant starch thread. I have tapioca because I like tapioca pudding. IIRC, the resistant starches are not supposed to be cooked. I don't often have the energy to cook tapioca pudding anyway.

 

[NilaJones]

@NilaJones, Thanks. I couldn't keep up with the long resistant starch thread. I have tapioca because I like tapioca pudding. IIRC, the resistant starches are not supposed to be cooked. I don't often have the energy to cook tapioca pudding anyway.

I couldn't read that whole thread either, although I wish I could! I dip into bits of it now and then. It is awesome.

If your tapioca is the 'quick' kind, I that might mean it is already partially cooked. The non-quick kind looks like little spheres, not chips. The tapioca starch is a fine powder -- but it might be the same thing as the spheres, just ground up.

I am not sure if the various products would work the same, but I'd say you might as well try what you have before buying something. That's what I did . You could swallow 1/4 teaspoon straight out of the box.

Be warned that it might make you constipated -- it did me. A lot of water would probably help.

 

[drphilipstowell]

Yeah I guess that is the case.

"Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense" - Carl Sagon.

The latest poll on this forum indicates that over 50% of patients report negative effects(for an extended period of time)when taking prebiotics.

 

[Hip]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense" - Carl Sagon.

Certainly, but equally, absence of evidence should not be considered an open invitation to make any unsubstantiated claim that you fancy.

In particular, absence of evidence is not justification to state, as if it were a fact, that inulin or FOS encourages the growth of Klebsiella, if you cannot provide evidence for this.

Of course you can hypothesize that inulin/FOS may encourage Klebsiella growth, and that would be an interesting speculation; but then you need to make clear that you are presenting a hypothesis.


However, having said that, I just decided to do a more intensive Google search for any information on this subject, and did just now find this 1986 study from Japan that stated that Klebsiella pneumoniae can utilize fructooligosaccharides (FOS), though the study does not cite the source of this info.

So if you have Klebsiella, you may want to be cautious with FOS.

The latest poll on this forum indicates that over 50% of patients report negative effects(for an extended period of time)when taking prebiotics.

Could you please provide a link to this poll. I have not seen it.

I have heard many ME/CFS patients reporting problems taking prebiotics, as well as patients getting benefits from them.

And that's quite normal: it's frequently observed that drugs or supplements that are beneficial for certain ME/CFS patients will produce horrible side effects in others. I have never come across a treatment that is uniformly beneficial in ME/CFS.



Have you seen this very lengthy thread, by the way, which about the benefits of a type of prebiotic called resistant starch:

The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

 

[drphilipstowell]

@madietodd

That article said that sucralose's effect on insulin might even be beneficial. But they just don't know.

Probably the safest artificial sweetener is stevia, but unfortunately it is also the most expensive.

I believe that any individual that recommends the use of artificial sweetners is not to be trusted and obviously has no formal education in the healthcare field.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/23/aspartame-artificial-sweeteners.aspx

And FYI Stevia is not an artificial sweetner.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/stevia

Well enough of my time has been wasted on here. Good day.

 

[Sushi]

I believe that any individual that recommends the use of artificial sweetners is not to be trusted and obviously has no formal education in the healthcare field.

This is a forum--which means that all are free to share their thoughts and opinions. You have stated your opinion, but saying that "any individual that recommends the use of artificial sweetners...obviously has no formal education in the healthcare field" is an inference which I doubt can be supported as many medical practitioners do indeed recommend the use of artificial sweeteners, whether or not they are backed by good research.

Well enough of my time has been wasted on here. Good day.

If you feel you are wasting your time here, you are free to log out, just as you are free to log back in when you feel like it.

Sushi

 

[M79]

I have been taking flax seeds, which seems to work for me pretty good. Fibers itself seems to work for me in certain form. Like over here in Finland we eat a lot of dark bread made of rye, good fiber, but that stuff burns my stomach so bad, like whole system and the pain... oh dear. But that might have something to do with gluten as well.

Based on stool test I am still not getting enough fibers even tho I eat oatmeal, flax seeds, berries and apples for example. Vegetables seem to be too hard for my stomach at this point. I love carrots , but that does not seem to digest at all. Only steamed broccoli and cauliflower I can tolerate.

Tho for me how my digestion works has more to do with body temperature than anything.

 

[Hip]

Like over here in Finland we eat a lot of dark bread made of rye, good fiber, but that stuff burns my stomach so bad, like whole system and the pain... oh dear.

Rye has a lot of insoluble fiber in it. Insoluble fiber, as its name indicates, does not dissolve in water; and insoluble fiber cannot act as a prebiotic (ie, it is not a food for friendly bacteria in the gut).

This contrasts to soluble fiber (such as inulin, FOS or ispaghula/psyllium) which dissolves in water, and is broken down and fermented by (hopefully) friendly bacteria in the colon.

The effects of soluble fiber and insoluble fiber are different, and you may for example be fine with soluble fiber, but have problems with insoluble fiber. If you have IBS-D (diarrhea-predominant IBS), you may be better of with soluble fiber. If you have IBS-C (constipation-predominant IBS), you may be better off taking insoluble fiber.


There is also a third category of dietary fiber called resistant starch, which is somewhere in between insoluble fiber and soluble fiber. Some ME/CFS patients seem to do well on RS. See here: The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

 

[M79]

Rye has a lot of insoluble fiber in it. Insoluble fiber, as its name indicates, does not dissolve in water; and insoluble fiber cannot act as a prebiotic (ie, it is not a food for friendly bacteria in the gut).

This contrasts to soluble fiber (such as inulin, FOS or ispaghula/psyllium) which dissolves in water, and is broken down and fermented by (hopefully) friendly bacteria in the colon.

The effects of soluble fiber and insoluble fiber are different, and you may for example be fine with soluble fiber, but have problems with insoluble fiber. If you have IBS-D (diarrhea-predominant IBS), you may be better of with soluble fiber. If you have IBS-C (constipation-predominant IBS), you may be better off taking insoluble fiber.


There is also a third category of dietary fiber called resistant starch, which is somewhere in between insoluble fiber and soluble fiber. Some ME/CFS patients seem to do well on RS. See here: The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Yeah over here doctors do tell you to eat fiber, but they have no clue why. The basic rule is to eat dark bread, end of story. Few doctors have told me that I will die if I quit eating rye. That is how things are over here So I had no idea why you are supposed to eat fibers. I have just learned it recently and now it makes sense!

Psyllium I could try, not sure should I use flax seeds at the same time.

I think I dont even have IBS anymore, at least not in traditional way. With my current, but limited diet I dont have diarrhea nor constipation except before periods. But as the stool test revealed I am missing some good bacteria so trying to feed good bacteria is essential for me.

That starch thing sounds interesting. But how is it if I have difficulties with potato, rice, banana and corn that contain starch or is taking potato starch for example different than cooked potatoes? I dont only get stomach pain I get hives as well, especially from rice, but all my food intolerance started after heave load of antibiotics.

 

[Hip]

For those who have experimented with prebiotics or probiotics, see this poll:

POLL: Do You Get PEM From Physical Exercise? Are You Sensitive To Lactate Probiotics Or Prebiotics?

 

[jason30]

Very informative post Hip! I learned a lot about prebiotics.
I wonder if someone came across a supplement with FOS and some good probiotics in it? I can't find one that have them both.

 

[bertiedog]

Hip, like the L-Glutamine thread outlined - a specific compound is not always universally beneficial to all who take it. The trick is, understanding exactly why it is that way in your case.

L glutamine was in the digestive enzyme from Nutri that I was regularly taking 3 times daily. However I am homozygeous for the GAD enzyme which means that I don't seem to convert it properly and end up with too much glutamate because I got such regularly bad headaches/migraines.

Since stopping it last week they haven't completely gone but are a lot better.

Pam

 

[Oci]

L glutamine was in the digestive enzyme from Nutri that I was regularly taking 3 times daily. However I am homozygeous for the GAD enzyme which means that I don't seem to convert it properly and end up with too much glutamate because I got such regularly bad headaches/migraines.

Since stopping it last week they haven't completely gone but are a lot better.

Pam

I too have been taking l-glutamine but to improve the gut lining. I think it is not a digestive enzyme but an amino acid which is found in abundance in the body.
I see the GAD is listed under liver detox phase 2 on MTHFR support.
I too get migraines and so would like to understand more about this relationship.
My GAD snps are mostly green with a few yellow.

 

[bertiedog]

@Oci Sorry I have got that wrong, its the glutamine-Gaba SNP that converts glutamine to glutamate but it is GAD1 - here is what Wiki says -

In biochemistry, the glutamate-glutamine cycle is a sequence of events by which an adequate supply of the neurotransmitter glutamate is maintained in the central nervous system.[1] Neurons are not able to perform new synthesis of the neurotransmitter glutamate and γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA) from glucose. Discoveries of glutamine and glutamate pools within intercellular compartments led to suggestions of the glutamate-glutamine cycle working between neurons and astrocytes. The glutamate/GABA-glutamine cycle is a metabolic pathway that describes the release of glutamate or GABA from neurons which are then taken up into astrocytes (star shaped glial cells). In return, astrocytes release glutamine to be taken up into neurons for use as a precursor to the synthesis of glutamate or GABA.[2]

Not sure if that helps. The glutamine was definitely in the digestive enzyme which was described as having a two wave action. I think it was about 150 mg in each tablet.

Pam

 

[Oci]

@Oci Sorry I have got that wrong, its the glutamine-Gaba SNP that converts glutamine to glutamate but it is GAD1 - here is what Wiki says -
....Not sure if that helps. The glutamine was definitely in the digestive enzyme which was described as having a two wave action. I think it was about 150 mg in each tablet.

Pam

No problem. There is so much to learn! Thanks for the information.

 

[bensmith]

20 grams of pscyllium husk, wow. I tried 10 the last couple days and def having to start much lower than that. Trying to start again at a couple grams.

Good stuff though am adding it to my probitoic.

 

[BananaMango99]

Is this functionally any different then to eating a high fibre diet? Or say a bowl of lentils? I always got gas from lentils and assumed it was a bad thing, even though I generally feel good otherwise from eating them.