The Wonders of Prebiotics

[xjhuez]

I can handle psyllium just fine, but supplemental inulin I'll never take again. It caused me terrible gas and then steatorhea. Not sure what this implies about my gut microflora.

 

[Christopher]

@Hip when you say you cut out sugars, did you mean most carbohydrates?

 

[JAM]

I have never taken prebiotics as supplements, but as foods. Pumpkin and summer squash are daily staples that helped my gut heal significantly. Still get occasional pain, but it is much less severe and the frequency and duration have decreased significantly. Pumpkin pie for breakfast will never get old!

 

[Hip]

@Hip when you say you cut out sugars, did you mean most carbohydrates?

No, I just cut out sugar as in sucrose, by switching to diet drinks, artificial sweeteners in tea or coffee, and avoiding sugary snacks.

 

[JAM]

No, I just cut out sugar as in sucrose, by switching to diet drinks, artificial sweeteners in tea or coffee, and avoiding sugary snacks.

There are so many health risks with artificial sweeteners. Why not just go to less refined natural sweeteners? My body accepts honey and dehydrated cane juice well.

 

[Hip]

There are so many health risks with artificial sweeteners.

There's lots of conflicting research, but very little conclusive evidence of any risks.

 

[maddietod]

There's lots of conflicting research, but very little conclusive evidence of any risks.

There are a lot of studies taking a new look at artificial sweeteners and insulin resistance. It's early days yet, but it's worth keeping any eye on the research. For example, this.

 

[Hip]

@madietodd

That article said that sucralose's effect on insulin might even be beneficial. But they just don't know.

Probably the safest artificial sweetener is stevia, but unfortunately it is also the most expensive.

 

[acer2000]

I think there is conflicting opinion about pre-biotics for people with GI upset issues because on one hand they help feed the benificial bacteria, but on the other hand many people with GI upset and "IBS" like symptoms have SIBO which by definition is overgrowth of bacteria in the small bowl. So there is some concern that adding pre-biotics (other than what is in the diet) could make it worse. I will admit though I'd like to see an actual study that shows this.

 

[JAM]

I think there is conflicting opinion about pre-biotics for people with GI upset issues because on one hand they help feed the benificial bacteria, but on the other hand many people with GI upset and "IBS" like symptoms have SIBO which by definition is overgrowth of bacteria in the small bowl. So there is some concern that adding pre-biotics (other than what is in the diet) could make it worse. I will admit though I'd like to see an actual study that shows this.

I have always had severe IBS pain and increasing pre-biotic foods really helped decrease the pain. That seemed to be typical according to the studies I read. If you find anything that contradicts that please let me know.

 

[Hip]

GI upset and "IBS" like symptoms have SIBO which by definition is overgrowth of bacteria in the small bowl. So there is some concern that adding pre-biotics (other than what is in the diet) could make it worse. I will admit though I'd like to see an actual study that shows this.

I guess you have a point there. Intestinal dysbiosis is where the harmful bacteria or fungi in the large intestine outgrow the beneficial bacteria; but SIBO is an overgrowth of any type of bacteria, good or bad, in the small intestine.

So theoretically prebiotics, which is food for the good bacteria, could make SIBO worse. However, I found this study which found that augmenting antibiotic therapy for SIBO with either probiotics or prebiotics were both helpful.

 

[Star-Anise]

Hi all!
@Hip
Thanks for the useful information.

Working on suspected SIBO. Found some success with Garden of Life probiotic with Homeostatic Soil Organisms (HSOs). It was the best probiotic I had ever tried! As well have had great success with Unmodified potato starch, & have weaned myself off of all of the methylfolate I was on, & feeling far better.

However, I still noticed bloating in small intestine area & difficulty if my diet wasn't perfect, so I decided to try Larch.

After the first few doses - been trying 1/4 tsp one time per day, I noticed some general improvement in my upper gut, and mood improvement.

However, after those first few days, I have become increasingly gassy with pain, about 4-5 hours after I take the larch, and so very, very bloated.
I also have a headache & increased malaise.

I'm wondering detox? Too much too fast? Any feedback re: people's experiences with larch?

I also coincidentally ran out of probiotics around time I started larch. My plan is to resume asap. Get some more probiotics into me, and then while on the probiotics maybe try a smaller dose of larch.

Is there any other prebiotic that I should be trying 1st though? I have tried psyllium & don't respond well. I get very gassy & increased malaise with bloating as well, with none of the positive effects.

Any suggestions would be welcoming. I'm trying to avoid spending ++$$ and more pain/discomfort by trial/error, but maybe this is also just part of the process too....

All the very best to everyone,

S

 

[JAM]

I don't do well on any of the prebiotics taken alone, only the whole foods. So eat a lot of pumpkin and other squashes. Any vegetables high in soluble fiber are good. I also took GasX when I started upping the soluble fiber in my diet. It takes a while for the bugs to stabilize, and GasX made the transition much easier.

 

[optimist]

Thanks for the informative post @Hip! Have you guys heard of/tried Molkosan? I have tested it for about a week now, 2x15ml together with 16 billion/8 strain probiotics a day. It has definitely not made me worse, but I am starting to wonder if I see a little positive effect. It would be nice to try introducing some of the prebiotics you are suggesting here on top of my current protocol.

I've seen at one of our local super markeds that there's a bag with the name "Husk" on it. Do you know if there are other foods than the one you mention here called husk? Anyways, I will have a closer look at it if there's mentioned something about Ispaghula/psyllium on it when I am there.

 

[optimist]

I know I can be a bit slow minded, so this could be worth keeping in mind when taking husk:

"Choking:
Taking this product without adequate fluid may cause it to swell and block your throat or esophagus and may cause choking. Do not take this product if you have difficulty in swallowing. If you experience chest pain, vomiting, or difficulty in swallowing or breathing after taking this product, seek immediate medical attention;"
and
"Directions: (Select one of the following, as appropriate: "Take" or "Mix") this product (child or
adult dose) with at least 8 ounces (a full glass) of water or other fluid. Taking this product without
enough liquid may cause choking. See choking warning."

 

[end]

I have always had severe IBS pain and increasing pre-biotic foods really helped decrease the pain. That seemed to be typical according to the studies I read. If you find anything that contradicts that please let me know.

As Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride has stated in her book many times is that prebiotics feed both the good and the bad bacteria in the GUT, so depending on exactly what your colonised with when supplementing prebiotics will determine your results.

Negative effects would probably indicate a high pathogenic load.

The GAPS nutritional protocol selectively feeds the good and eliminates the bad.

It is a harsh diet though, and many sledge it as a result.

 

[Hip]

As Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride has stated in her book many times is that prebiotics feed both the good and the bad bacteria in the GUT, so depending on exactly what your colonised with when supplementing prebiotics will determine your results.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, prebiotics are by their definition, a food source that is far more assimilable by the beneficial bacteria in the gut, than by the pathogenic bacteria.

More specifically, the actual 1995 defintion of "prebiotic" is:

"Prebiotics are nondigestible food ingredients that beneficially affect the host by selectively stimulating the growth and/or activity of one or a limited number of bacterial species already resident in the colon, and thus attempt to improve host health."

Source: Dietary modulation of the human colonic microbiota: introducing the concept of prebiotics.

See also: Prebiotics: The Concept Revisited.

So if something feeds the bad bacteria in the gut and thereby undermines heath, it is not a prebiotic, by the definition of the term "prebiotic".

 

[end]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, prebiotics are by their definition, a food source that is far more assimilable by the beneficial bacteria in the gut, than by the pathogenic bacteria.

More specifically, the actual 1995 defintion of "prebiotic" is:

Source: Dietary modulation of the human colonic microbiota: introducing the concept of prebiotics.

See also: Prebiotics: The Concept Revisited.

So if something feeds the bad bacteria in the gut and thereby undermines heath, it is not a prebiotic, by the definition of the term "prebiotic".

@Hip

I understand the various definition's of "prebiotics"

*What I am outlining is that the GAPS nutritional protocol by Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride PROHIBITS them ie inulin - I recall specifically.

I guess one persons definition, does not always reflect another's.

Hip, like the L-Glutamine thread outlined - a specific compound is not always universally beneficial to all who take it. The trick is, understanding exactly why it is that way in your case.

I miss Rich Van K as he always tried to identify the reasons as to, why.

 

[Hip]

@end
As far as I can work out, it was that above-citied 1995 paper by Gibson and Roberfroid which first defined and introduced the concept of prebiotics, so the notion of a "prebiotic" appears to be their invention.

Though I can imagine it is possible that some people may get ill effects from taking the prebiotics that are generally beneficial for the most of the population.

Does Campbell-McBride explain why she prohibits prebiotics?

 

[end]

http://gapsaustralia.com.au/bio-kult/

"[A: There seems to be a trend engaging the market for prebiotics or probiotics with prebiotics contained within them. In light of this, Dr Natasha advises that prebiotics generally feed pathogens as well as beneficial microbes and that is why they are on the avoid list and for this reason she does not recommend using them at the beginning of the programme. Patients who start prebiotics too soon will have symptoms associated with flatulence and bloating."
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@Hip
I imagine like I stated above. Probably because of a high "pathogenic load" in your GUT which results in negative effects.

Fairly simple, if PREbiotics give you flatulence and bloating like Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride has stated, you probably have a high pathogenic load and should avoid taking them initialy.
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UOTE="Hip, post: 538820, member: 249"]@end
As far as I can work out, it was that above-citied 1995 paper by Gibson and Roberfroid which first defined and introduced the concept of prebiotics, so the notion of a "prebiotic" appears to be their invention.

Though I can imagine it is possible that some people may get ill effects from taking the prebiotics that are generally beneficial for the most of the population.

Does Campbell-McBride explain why she prohibits prebiotics?[/QUOTE]