Understand.
The Undetectable Infection
- Thread starter Elph68
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Hi Tammy,
To throw a spanner in the works, with the symptoms you describe, this could also be coagulase-negative staphylococcus .....
Unless you have a lab report from your urogenital tract that specifically says strep, then staph is actually more likely.
If you are going off gut flora tests, this will mislead you.
Staph builds resistance to antibiotics faster than strep, so when the strep is killed, staph persists ..... So chasing after strep without balancing off antibiotics for staph I now believe is making it worse, particularly for long term sufferers.
In the USA there are labs that can test for 'aerobic vaginitis' ..... You may have already tried this.
While I was in China, I was able to look at the dishes that grew the bacteria and talk with the microbiologist about what bacteria they found ..... And what is called 'normal flora' .....
Tammy
Senior Member
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Nope..........not staph............definitely strep.
This is really interesting,
The literature says that 15 to 20% of Staphlyococcus Epidermidis produce a toxin called 20-kDaPS which is made up mainly of glucose, N-acetylglucosamine and being partially sulfated ..... This is apparently why xylitol works to reduce inflammation as it is a different type of sugar that the bacteria can't use to produce the toxin ...... This bacteria has many defences to keep it invisible to the immune system but this toxin causes immune system activation including antibodies to it. This is classed as 'normal flora' ......
This toxin is only produced by this bacteria, and this bacteria is the most common bacteria found on the skin .....
I wonder if this could be one of the bullets from Dr Lipkins smoking gun .....
The literature says that 15 to 20% of Staphlyococcus Epidermidis produce a toxin called 20-kDaPS which is made up mainly of glucose, N-acetylglucosamine and being partially sulfated ..... This is apparently why xylitol works to reduce inflammation as it is a different type of sugar that the bacteria can't use to produce the toxin ...... This bacteria has many defences to keep it invisible to the immune system but this toxin causes immune system activation including antibodies to it. This is classed as 'normal flora' ......
This toxin is only produced by this bacteria, and this bacteria is the most common bacteria found on the skin .....
I wonder if this could be one of the bullets from Dr Lipkins smoking gun .....
Hi @Tommy73 when this bacteria is on the skin, there is no problem but when it gets in the mucous membranes such as the eyes, nose, mouth, throat and the urogenital tract it turns sugar into a slime. It is this slime that causes immune system activation. The slime also has substances which help it to hide.
So when it is producing this slime it pushes out other bacteria and the slime helps them to stick together forming a biofilm which results in calcification. It transfers into the prostate, like any other bacteria, it follows the sugar up the urethra and into the prostate which mainly contains sugar and/or is sucked up into it by the action of intercourse (same as a syringe sucks up liquid) .... Any urologist will tell you this is how bacteria enter the prostate ...
In the vagina the cervix produces a lot of sugar between ovulation and menstruation therefore the bacteria produce slime during this period at great levels and effectively reduce the levels of good bacteria resulting in vaginitis ....
Once the bacteria is in the mucous membranes and is producing slime, it can then enter the lymphatic system like other bacteria and use the body's fuel (glucose) to continue creating havoc and avoid the immune system.
When a lab finds this bacteria in mucous membrane swabs, it is classed as 'normal flora' and therefore is not reported. Conjunctivitis is caused by this bacteria staph aureus causes more severe conjunctivitis.
Some staph aureus species can also produce a similar slime which also acts in the same way .....
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So its bad for us to take n-Acetylglucosamine NAG and should be avoided?. I know its simple sugar but also held the gut lining so fast..
Not sure about that ..... this staph species is not a common inhabitor of the gut ..... it is normal flora for the eyes, nose, mouth, throat and urogenital tract.
Concentrating only on the gut will not cure this ..... it only reduces the symptoms ...... many people have CFS without gut issues.
I only have immune system dysfunction now .... I do not have gut issues.
Cheers.
After a rather strained discussion with my infectious disease specialist yesterday, she has reluctantly agreed that Staphlyococcus slime is the cause of my immune system dysfunction and 'may be' contributing to the remaining CFS symptoms and has put me on 300mg of Rifampicin and 500mg Fucidin 2x per day for the next 3 months in order to decolonize staph from my mucosa .....
The last of my symptoms being tiredness/lethargy, PEM, skin sores, irritated eyes, mouth, nose and throat, muscle and joint pain.
Will update on the progress.
The last of my symptoms being tiredness/lethargy, PEM, skin sores, irritated eyes, mouth, nose and throat, muscle and joint pain.
Will update on the progress.
This is interesting,
http://iacfsme.org/ME-CFS-Primer-Ed...apy-of-Fibromyalgia-and-Chronic-Fati-(1).aspx
This is a study where they used staphypan a Staphlyococcus toxoid vaccine to treat CFS and fibro patients ....
Seems it worked .....
What I find really interesting is that the IBS disappeared/reduced by treating the immune system ....
So here we are all treating/fighting the gut which it seems may only be symptoms of a dysfunctioning immune system ..... more support to the theory that this is a systemic issue, not just the gut .....
The undetectable infection is biofilm forming bacteria .... Staphlyococcus may be the biggest cause of this condition .....
http://iacfsme.org/ME-CFS-Primer-Ed...apy-of-Fibromyalgia-and-Chronic-Fati-(1).aspx
This is a study where they used staphypan a Staphlyococcus toxoid vaccine to treat CFS and fibro patients ....
Seems it worked .....
What I find really interesting is that the IBS disappeared/reduced by treating the immune system ....
So here we are all treating/fighting the gut which it seems may only be symptoms of a dysfunctioning immune system ..... more support to the theory that this is a systemic issue, not just the gut .....
The undetectable infection is biofilm forming bacteria .... Staphlyococcus may be the biggest cause of this condition .....
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It seems there may be a way to combat the mucosal bacteria without using antibiotics.
This is what I have been using
For the eyes: 10% povidore iodine mixed 50/50 with xlear (kids) nasal drops ..... this stings a bit
For the nose: 10% povidore iodine mixed with xlear (adults) nasal spray 1 part xlear, 2 parts betadine with a few oregano oil drops added
For the throat: betadine sore throat gargle or chlorhexidine mouth wash with 1 clove pulverised garlic and ginger ... with bliss probiotics and I had a teaspoon of xylitol granules every 3 to 4 hours.
Gargling also stimulates the nerves between the brain and the gut ..... I gargled deeply until I teared up and gagged.
Chlorhexidine body wash/scrub, particular attention to face, genital area, anus/perineum under arms etc.
If I was a female I would have done 14 days of 10% vaginal douche especially if I was having problems with cystitis or burning/pain/vaginitis etc .... betadine also have a feminine maintenance douche product.
There is no way for us males to get into our urogenital track
Chlorhexidine is just as effective as an alternative if allergy to iodine.
This will work for both staph and strep biofilm species .....
In some ways this approach could be better than abx. because bacteria don't develop resistance to these antiseptics.
My condition improved dramatically when I added this to the gut protocol the xylitol stops the biofilm bacteria from re-forming when the betadine kills them allowing other bacteria to flourish .....
I haven't posted this previously because I figured it would be seen as controversial, but it did work .... I wonder if anybody else has tried anything like this?
This is what I have been using
For the eyes: 10% povidore iodine mixed 50/50 with xlear (kids) nasal drops ..... this stings a bit
For the nose: 10% povidore iodine mixed with xlear (adults) nasal spray 1 part xlear, 2 parts betadine with a few oregano oil drops added
For the throat: betadine sore throat gargle or chlorhexidine mouth wash with 1 clove pulverised garlic and ginger ... with bliss probiotics and I had a teaspoon of xylitol granules every 3 to 4 hours.
Gargling also stimulates the nerves between the brain and the gut ..... I gargled deeply until I teared up and gagged.
Chlorhexidine body wash/scrub, particular attention to face, genital area, anus/perineum under arms etc.
If I was a female I would have done 14 days of 10% vaginal douche especially if I was having problems with cystitis or burning/pain/vaginitis etc .... betadine also have a feminine maintenance douche product.
There is no way for us males to get into our urogenital track
Chlorhexidine is just as effective as an alternative if allergy to iodine.
This will work for both staph and strep biofilm species .....
In some ways this approach could be better than abx. because bacteria don't develop resistance to these antiseptics.
My condition improved dramatically when I added this to the gut protocol the xylitol stops the biofilm bacteria from re-forming when the betadine kills them allowing other bacteria to flourish .....
I haven't posted this previously because I figured it would be seen as controversial, but it did work .... I wonder if anybody else has tried anything like this?
It appears that a full MRSA screen may be advantageous for some people. this includes the tongue, throat, nose and uro-genital (internal and external) as well as the usual places. Make sure a full sensitivity test is done because MRSA can also only be clindamycin resistant, but that makes it the same genotype as MRSA.
The second thing I would do (thanks Quinn) Marcon's swab and MSH blood test.
This is the best article that explains what I am trying to explain in the last few posts about staphlycoccus eperdimidis.
http://biotoxinjourney.com/marcons/
This website explains everything exactly what I have found in a much better way.
I have recently posted to use Betadine in the nose with Xlear, thiis doctor says to use BEG with Xlear.
The second thing I would do (thanks Quinn) Marcon's swab and MSH blood test.
This is the best article that explains what I am trying to explain in the last few posts about staphlycoccus eperdimidis.
http://biotoxinjourney.com/marcons/
This website explains everything exactly what I have found in a much better way.
I have recently posted to use Betadine in the nose with Xlear, thiis doctor says to use BEG with Xlear.
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MSH comes from the pituitary gland and Staphlyococcus is able to break this down ..... so the more Staph in the system, the more MSH has to be produced to make up for what the staph is doing ..... so it just makes sense that the continuous production of MSH at higher levels than normal will cause the gland to fail leaving lower than normal levels in the system ....... I may be mistaken, but isn't the HPA axis discussed a lot in CFS??
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10722646
And guess what ..... it is extracellular proteases which cleave (break up) the MSH .....
So it appears that the body is waging war on Staph and MSH is one of the weapons ....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19560499
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...maintenance.++Apologies+for+the+inconvenience.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10722646
And guess what ..... it is extracellular proteases which cleave (break up) the MSH .....
So it appears that the body is waging war on Staph and MSH is one of the weapons ....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19560499
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...maintenance.++Apologies+for+the+inconvenience.
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Hello. I am very late to this discussion and have only read the first few pages and the last few so forgive me if what I say has already been said.
I worked for 15 years in a microbiology laboratory at a major hospital in Canada and am finding a lot of what has been discussed here is somewhat misleading, incorrect, and occasionally dangerous. It's not all bad, however, and when I have more time I will be looking up some of the references to understand more of your ideas.
My job was to culture (grow) and identify bacteria and to differentiate normal flora from pathogenic organisms in all the specimens sent to the lab. These included spinal fluid, tissues, stool, sputum, semen, cervix, nose, throat, rectum, wounds of all sorts, joint fluid, cardiac valves, gastric biopsies and more.
I am curious though, how you were never tested for Ureaplasma/mycoplasma right from the beginning ? That is not an unusual test.
Another strange thing is the belief that getting saliva into your rectum was the cause of all this initially. If this were the case almost anyone engaging in sex beyond very standard missionary style would have mecfs. .
My main concern is your prolific use of antibiotics. This is actually very dangerous and might actually be CAUSING me/cfs or at least be making it worse. I took antibiotics for years for acne, starting at the age of 13, and it has been thought to be a possible cause for my mecfs. Since researchers now know that the gut microbiome is different in mecfs and that we have leaky gut, taking antibiotics just causes even more dysbiosis. Plus it leads to antimicrobial resistance which it looks like you are already familiar with and having experience with.
I hope that your latest treatment has helped you.
Hey Gamboa,
If you read this through, you will see that I have posted similar about antibiotic use ..... I would not use ciprofloxican, levofloxican, azithromycin, erythromycin, clarithromycin, B-lactames, moxifloxican, gentamicin or doxycycline to treat CFS. I have taken them, and I have had improvement, but after a short period of time .... a lot of the symptoms return ..... using vancomycin in my gut however, gave me about a 70% improvement that I have been able to maintain.
You will also see I have used probiotics by the truck load ..... including colon and nasal flushing with kefir, sauerkraut and kimchi juice.
I am not the only person on this forum who would call this an STI. But in your case, I would look pretty hard at MARCoNS, and I believe you are right when you talk about acne and abx. But the reason behind your acne, your immune systems inability to deal with Propionibacterium acnes may be because it was too busy dealing with biofilm staph and strep species and could not keep everything in check .....
And as far as the ureaplasma goes, I also can't understand how staph aureus and staph eperdidimis are normal flora in the prostate when one is MRSA and the other one is MARCoNS and therefore they both form calcification (biofilms) in the presence of glucose ..... which is what a prostate is full of ......
On your teeth it is called plaque or tartar which causes gum disease ..... in your prostate it is called normal flora .....
For me, this started as a mild eye infection (conjunctivitis) which is mainly staph, Which can be caused by either SA or CoNSE (normal flora), moved into my nose and mouth (burning mouth and throat and geographic tongue) and then 3 days after a full physical encounter with my then new gf I have full blown prostatitis and the nightmare begins .....
No pathogens found .... normal flora!!
So I fly to China, visit a urologist with his own lab and we get his microbioligist (a professor from Changsha university) to have a look at what is normal flora...... Normal flora that is not so normal ....
BTW ..... missionary style not recommended either as these bacteria cause vaginitis and prostatitis ....
Not everybody with CFS has gut issues ..... to say that gut issues are the cause of this may be true for some, but after all I have been through .... we could argue chicken or the egg all day, but I reckon a burnt out or overloaded immune system allows the dysbiosis ...... Hence the saliva finger in the rectum reference .....
But then some may have been born with it and others like you are from antibiotics, or the toxic environment etc.
We will see what happens from here on in now that I have a targeted treatment of the mucosa.
full physical encounter with my then new gf I have full blown prostatitis and the nightmare begins ...reading your comments on here you had this before you met your new partner . so you cant blame her for your problems . low immune system . what about people have had cancer treatment . that kill there system and i dont seem them getting these problems
Hi Tommy73,
That is right .... you have to be colonised with biofilm forming multi antibiotic resistant coagulese negative Staphlyococcus (MARCoNS) and/or biofilm forming staph aureus such as MRSA to develop this .... only 15 to 20% of CoNS species are biofilm forming MARCoNS ..... and yes, being type 2 diabetic means I have a lowered immunity ....this is why it is undetectable in the lab ..... standard tests don't differentiate between MARCoNS and regular CoNS .....
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