The Undetectable Infection

[Daffodil]

@knackers323 ..i met someone in the waiting room who was treated early and recovered totally for 10 yrs..she was back cuz her lyme was acting up again.

i can say i am better with his treatment and i know others who are too...some much better, some less so. a lot depends on age and duration of illness

there are some who get fed up with the antibiotics and don't want to continue so long or whatever and give up

 

[Elph68]

Hi, I do ..... I take it before/after meals ....

If taken on an empty stomach, it is absorbed, taken with food, it helps with digestion.

I take it in 2 forms .... pure bromelain on an empty stomach to help with the bacterial problem ..... Digestive enzymes containing bromelain with food in order to help with digestion ...

Cheers.

One of the things with these bacteria is they have surface adhesion proteins .... that is how they stick to epithelial cells and other bacteria .... I believe that bromelain is attacking these bacterial proteins and thus preventing them from forming biofilms and attaching to human cells .... this i do not know for sure.

cheers.

 

[knackers323]

@knackers323 ..i met someone in the waiting room who was treated early and recovered totally for 10 yrs..she was back cuz her lyme was acting up again.

i can say i am better with his treatment and i know others who are too...some much better, some less so. a lot depends on age and duration of illness

there are some who get fed up with the antibiotics and don't want to continue so long or whatever and give up

thanks for the reply. the people that have improved, it is due to them being treated to lyme and/or gut bacteria dysbiosys?

the treatment for the dysbiosys is pulsed antibiotics and certain strains of probiotics?

 

[Daffodil]

thanks for the reply. the people that have improved, it is due to them being treated to lyme and/or gut bacteria dysbiosys?

the treatment for the dysbiosys is pulsed antibiotics and certain strains of probiotics?

i think that is what he treats...gut issues and lyme....maybe using gcmaf or something if viral problems show up. he also does food tolerance testing ....tests for other bacteria too and mold antibodies...it is not so easy to ask a lot of questions sometimes....but he knows what is up!

also uses low dose immunoglobulin sometimes

 

[Noellea77]

@Elph68 the protease deficiency/ biofilm theory makes sense. I've been spending a lot of time on forums dedicated to SIBO and so many people relapse after treatment. It's like a constant merry-go-round. They have different bacteria overgrowing than we do but maybe the same cause.

 

[globalpilot]

This thread has made some statements that, although controversial, is what I have found in the research I have conducted.

So ..... I now want to do a little summary and add a bit more ....

Basically I believe that the undetectable infection has 2 parts .... An undetectable bacteria, or group of bacteria acting in the same way causing a set of symptoms, the second is a genetic problem as well as a lack of good bacteria that produces enzymes and nutrients needed for our body to function correctly.

I have previously put up a protocol to beat the buggers down .....

So the main components are as follows:

D-lactic acid ...... Lactic acid is used as a fuel by the body under times of stress and fuels the brain. L-lactate is the right lactic acid. D-lactate is harder to break down. So when the body is under stress and needs extra fuel, it quickly uses the L-lactate and then is choked by the D-lactate so to speak ..... Like running the wrong fuel in a car.

Catalase deficiency ..... Both from the lack of catalase producing bacteria and/or a genetic deficiency at the cellular level. This is the cause of leaky gut, cancers, intestinal polyps, pancreas damage and thyroid issues ..... Hydrogen peroxide damages DNA at the cellular level .... Catalase breaks down hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen ..... Hydrogen peroxide is one of the bodies main signalling agents ......

Pineapple, papaya and sweet potato are good sources of catalase, but they must be eaten raw ...

Extra cellular Protease expression ...... This is how the bacteria turn off the immune system. Protease turns off the immune systems signalling agents leaving the body defenceless ......

This is where things get interesting, a supplement called bromelain breaks down protease (and other proteins) .... Bromelain is also found in pineapple .....I

Biofilm formation ...... In the presence of sugar these bacteria form biofilms (like plaque on teeth) which other bacteria of the same type but of different species form communities which amplifies the effects of what I have previously mentioned.....

Lauricidin (monolaurin) acts like a soap on biofilms and dissolves them.

Lauricidin is a mono saturated fat found in coconut ......

Hydrogen Sulphide ...... Another one of the bodies signalling agents ......damages the mitochondria and causes inflammation ..... Hydrogen Sulphide is produced in the presence of simple sugars .....

Now there is quite a famous study called th Kitava Island Study, where they have found a community that still has a traditional diet and they have none of the ailments that we have, no cancer, heart disease, etc. their diet consists of these items listed above as well as watermelon, banana, fresh veg and small amounts of fish, chicken and pork.

This leads me to my next interesting discovery ...... Everybody I know locally diagnosed with CFS/fibro tests positive for protein in their urine (including me) .... These bugs also produce A smelly gas from lecithin, which the liver converts to TMAO which it seems is believed to be the cause of this and other issues .....

Here is one simple news article ..... https://www.sciencenews.org/article/gut-microbes-may-foster-heart-disease

This is a lot of the fine tuning associated with the undetectable infection theory .........

Kill the bad guys and put back in good guys .....

Also ..... I keep saying it has a lot to do with the different strains ....... Streptococcus salivarius K12 that is the probiotic needed to cure those with chronic sore throat ..... It is really hard to get it to colonise the mouth with the bad guys stopping it ..... But not impossible .......

I hope this helps in some way .......

Elph,

FWIW, I tested very high for TMAO (17.5, normal is less than around 6). My fiancé tested at 2.1 which is excellent and he is on the same diet as I.

A Paleo/AIP/low FODMAPS diet is helping a lot as is colostrum with gut symptoms and fatigue. No antimicrobials helped at all surprisingly

I did the TMAO test as an indirect measure of SIBO

 

[knackers323]

Elph,

FWIW, I tested very high for TMAO (17.5, normal is less than around 6). My fiancé tested at 2.1 which is excellent and he is on the same diet as I.

A Paleo/AIP/low FODMAPS diet is helping a lot as is colostrum with gut symptoms and fatigue. No antimicrobials helped at all surprisingly

I did the TMAO test as an indirect measure of SIBO

Hi what colostrum are you using? do you know if camel is sold commercially? ive heard it is closest to human. thanks

 

[globalpilot]

I'm using immuneTree Colostrum - 1 T per day. I don't know about the camel colostrum

 

[freddy77]

I still think a lot of the problem is what we eat and the amount of stress and depression . Because it can affect the body in many ways

 

[CarlD]

I can recommend Surthrival colostrum. I gather it and Immune Tree are essentially the same product with different labels slapped on. Potent and delicious.
However in my situation, I don't know whether I should be taking it while I'm overrun with strep/enteroccoccus as I suspect (Bioscreen showed overgrowth early this year). My gut is so leaky I want to use the colostrum to patch it up, but I fear the (tiny amount) lactose or other natural sugars could be feeding my bad bugs.

I've found some improvement since adding proteolytic enzymes recommended on this thread (thank you!) but slid backwards this week, I fear the recent addition of psyllium husk to the bicarb might not be agreeing with my gut.

So much guesswork, so much tweaking, so many variables to try and find a protocol that really helps us find relief... this is a painful journey,

 

[Avengers26]

@CarlD @Elph68 What proteolytic enzymes are you taking?

 

[CarlD]

I've started out with "Doctor's Best" brand; fairly broad spectrum and relatively cheap (iHerb), but I'm looking at trying a different brand - one with catalase and no potentially bad fillers (eg Vitalzym capsules contain starch). Would also love to hear which ones @Elph68 or others recommend...

 

[Avengers26]

@CarlD Is it this one?

http://www.iherb.com/product-review...zymes-90-Enteric-Coated-Veggie-Caps/9941/?p=1

 

[CarlD]

@CarlD Is it this one?

http://www.iherb.com/product-review...zymes-90-Enteric-Coated-Veggie-Caps/9941/?p=1

that's the one

 

[CarlD]

So confused about which abx to try. I've been on the fence about it with my doc for a while, just waiting, waiting to pull the trigger but I need to get it right first time before my bugs could achieve resistance.
Considering Erythromycin and Augmentin...? What's the advantage of say Vancomycin over Erythromycin or clarithromycin for example?
If anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it.

The rest of my protocol (similar to Elph's, etc listed previously) has brought considerable benefit but I've skipped the biggest part of step 1, so this feels like it's slow containment/ damage control and not killing bugs enough to get real relief.

 

[globalpilot]

So confused about which abx to try. I've been on the fence about it with my doc for a while, just waiting, waiting to pull the trigger but I need to get it right first time before my bugs could achieve resistance.
Considering Erythromycin and Augmentin...? What's the advantage of say Vancomycin over Erythromycin or clarithromycin for example?
If anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it.

The rest of my protocol (similar to Elph's, etc listed previously) has brought considerable benefit but I've skipped the biggest part of step 1, so this feels like it's slow containment/ damage control and not killing bugs enough to get real relief.

Hi,
Is Elphs protocol listed on this thread ? Any idea which page ?

 

[CarlD]

p31 I believe

 

[renski]

So confused about which abx to try. I've been on the fence about it with my doc for a while, just waiting, waiting to pull the trigger but I need to get it right first time before my bugs could achieve resistance.
Considering Erythromycin and Augmentin...? What's the advantage of say Vancomycin over Erythromycin or clarithromycin for example?
If anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it.

The rest of my protocol (similar to Elph's, etc listed previously) has brought considerable benefit but I've skipped the biggest part of step 1, so this feels like it's slow containment/ damage control and not killing bugs enough to get real relief.

Vancomycin is a stronger antibiotic compared to erythromycin and maybe there is less resistance to some strains of strep. A doctor should be able to advise you on which antibiotic to use for your own circumstances.. I wouldn't make a call on my own or rely on what someone says on an online forum Hopefully you have a doc who knows which antibiotics to use.. make sure to also test for SIBO.

 

[Abdulrahman]

I should point out that it is very easy, just using simple logic, to prove that herpes family viruses such as HHV-6 and EBV cannot be the triggering viruses of ME/CFS. This logic is as follows:

You can exclude herpes family viruses from being the precipitating infectious cause of ME/CFS simply by the fact that (a) ME/CFS most frequently develops in adults, (b) nearly all adults will already have HHV-6 and EBV in their body, since HHV-6 is usually picked up before you are 3 years old, and EBV is picked up usually in the teenage years. Ergo, when you observe that you have caught some virus that then precipitated your ME/CFS, it is very unlikely to ever be HHV-6 and EBV, since the majority of adults already have these two viruses in their body already.

I am not sure why ME/CFS researchers have overlooked this basic fact, which generally rules out HHV-6 and EBV as being the triggering viruses of ME/CFS. Of course, HHV-6 and EBV already in your body may be reactivated by the immunosuppression of ME/CFS, and may then contribute to ME/CFS symptoms, sure, that is another story. So it is still a good idea to take anti-herpes drugs. But HHV-6 and EBV cannot be the triggering virus of ME/CFS that you catch as a adult, in the general case at least).

Enteroviruses such as coxsackievirus B and echovirus are a different story, because although one or two of these may be caught early in life, there are in fact 6 serotypes of coxsackievirus B (not to mention the various sub-strains of each serotype), and there are 32 echovirus serotypes, so you can certainly catch a nasty enterovirus later in life as an adult, even if you caught one as a child.

Hello Hip,

I disagree completely with your analysis above on why Herpes family viruses are not one of the major triggering factors in CFS/ME. You have allowed yourself to follow a 30 year old mainstream medical reasoning without using a true logical analysis that uses independent thinking..Please see my earlier discussion below:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-some-cause-cancer.25782/page-2#post-597454

Abdulrahman said:

1. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients, whose primary Herpes family infection is EBV, do not have the standard EBV of the garden variety type which is defeated by the immune system after six months maximum in average patients. However, CFS patients are instead infected with a powerful strain of EBV that has little in comparison with the standard EBV. So they are more correctly termed as Chronic EBV or CEBV patients. The powerful CEBV strain that they carry cannot be defeated by the normal healthy immune system and the result is constant infection, however this does not mean that the infection is active 24 hours daily, 365 days per year. Some days it is active, and at other times it is inactive due to immune action but it is always resident and even while inactive it has severely compromised the host immune system by constant infection of white blood cells and damaging CD8+ cells.

Under normal immunological serum testing the two viruses show exactly the same igG and iga, igM immune markers. The ability to separate one viral strain from another requires very highly specialized genetic marker testing. Many doctors then conclude that the Chronic Fatigue patient does not have a dangerous infective virus; he or she only has standard EBV. By this stroke of medical genius, the proof of dangerous infection is removed from the medical results. I hope this error in diagnosis is very clear otherwise the remainder of this discussion has no value. Note: we are not discussing here CAEBV infection, only CEBV.

2. Another subset of Chronic Fatigue patients may not have a CEBV infection, but they show high markers for HHV-6 viral infection, another Herpes family virus that has very similar immune destroying mechanisms. Again, because the majority of doctors are ignorant of microbiology, they will find many patients without an active HHV-6 infection marker in serum. However the HHV-6 virus even when inactive has already infected the immune cells and has greatly degraded their ability to function. Basically these immune cells are sick 24 hours per day with HHV-6 disease. The HHV-6 is a virus acting as a parasite living inside immune cells, Salivary glands, and some organs, even when the viral markers show an inactive HHV-6 in serum.

Another discussion on the role of dangerous strains of Herpes Family Viruses such as EBV and others:

There seem to be different strains of EBV. Some seem to be able to cause cancer.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131010124601.htm

Oct. 10, 2013 — You might not know it, but most of us are infected with the herpesvirus known as Epstein-Barr virus (EBV). For most of us, the virus will lead at worst to a case of infectious mononucleosis, but sometimes, and especially in some parts of the world, those viruses are found in association with cancer. Now, researchers reporting in the Cell Press journalCell Reports on October 10 have found that the difference between a relatively harmless infection and a cancer-causing one lies at least partly in the viral strain itself.

The results offer some of the first evidence for the existence of distinct EBV subtypes with very different public health risks. The researchers say that vaccination or other strategies for preventing EBV infection will need to be designed with these most pathogenic, cancer-causing strains in mind.
"EBV is an important but neglected pathogen," said Henri-Jacques Delecluse of the German Cancer Research Centre in Heidelberg, Germany. "We have made an important step in recognizing that EBV is actually a family of viruses that have different properties, some of which are very likely to cause disease. So, the consequences of being infected with EBV might be different, depending on the strain one carries."

Delecluse and his colleagues made the discovery by sequencing the DNA of a viral strain dubbed M81 isolated from a Chinese patient with nasopharyngeal carcinoma (NPC). Their analyses revealed that M81 is highly similar to other viruses isolated from NPCs and profoundly different from Western strains in terms of its ability to infect and replicate within cells.

The M81 strain can infect epithelial cells and multiply spontaneously at a very high level in all cells it infects, including B lymphocytes, the cells in which the viruses hide, the researchers report. It remains to be seen exactly how infected epithelial cells become cancerous.
"Our results have made me radically change my strategy to address the problem of EBV-associated diseases," Delecluse said. "The current view is that the virus is essentially the same all over the world and that local conditions explain the different consequences of EBV infection. We now show that the type of EBV also plays an important role. By concentrating on the potentially pathogenic EBV strains, we will soon better understand how EBV causes diseases, and this will also help [in] designing prevention strategies."

Nice data which further confirms the conclusion that a dangerous strain of EBV is a part of our problem that must be attacked.

Thanks,
Abdulrahman

 

[Hip]

@Abdulrahman

I agree with you to a degree. I changed my view to an extent, after I considered the results of the "twin peaks" study:

Two age peaks in the incidence of chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis: a population-based registry study from Norway 2008–2012

In terms of age of onset of ME/CFS, this study found there were two peaks in the figures: a first peak in the age group 10 to 19 years, and a second peak in the age group 30 to 39 years.

I wonder if the early peak might be due to EBV, as I think the teenage years are when EBV is often picked up.


HHV-6B I don't think can be a triggering virus, because almost everybody will have picked up this virus by the age of 3. It is possible that the rarer and more neurovirulent HHV-6A might be a triggering virus, though.