The Undetectable Infection

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hello Elph,

Would you take the vancomycin for 4 weeks (how much?) at the same time as commencing the clarith and doxy?

I'm seriously considering this protocol, plus the fmt also. I 'd like to time it so my whole family can do it at once. I may need to wait until my son is old enough to handle all that abx.

If you have success your doc, as a social responsibility, must prescribe same for your partner and child.

Or perhaps take a holiday to a country where abx are over counter?

A gp and neurologist wanted to prescribe me psych drugs, ffs, once my son showed symptoms they changed to "genetic disposition, l just got it a little later"... Give me strength!!!

Until this thread, in 5 years, l've never read about anybody with this same systemic infection/symptoms.

Thanks for your determination and postings, well done on your progress.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark,

Sorry about the delay of getting back to you, but I have some more to update you on ..... this post will probably take a while but I hope it is worth it. .....

This specifically relates to the discussions and treatment that I have had with the infectious disease specialist that has been listening to my theory and treating me accordingly. I do need to point out however Mark that after so long, it is highly unlikely that oral antibiotics will resolve our prostate issues .... BUT, never say die. There is a clinic in China that direct injects abx into the prostate, and there is also phage therapy, which I will now be pursuing.

The basis of the undetectable infection can be seen on teeth. Biofilm forming bacteria form on the teeth in the presence of sugar and minerals resulting in calcification .... this causes tooth decay and gum disease .... They produce organic acids and biotoxins which my research has shown is the root cause of our condition. Personally, I do not understand how this has slipped under the medical professions radar, but it has .... and we are the result of it .... Systemic biofilms, or microscopic tartar spread throughout the body ....

The prostate is a very difficult one, so I will deal with that seperately, and as the good doctor said to me, we can't use a toothbrush to get the tartar out of the prostate ....

I have done something really interesting, the last week of my clarithromycin treatment I started colon flushes with Kefir using a turkey baster ....... I am happy to say that the results have been somewhat dramatic. Before I go to bed I lay on my left side and use the turkey baster to place about 150mls of live kefir milk made with granules up my backside. I thought I was feeling pretty good BUT, now I feel a whole heap better. My total concern with FMT is the risk of a serious infection slipping through the safety net .... I reckon that this is a good alternative so fingers crossed ...

The other development is my doctor decided to put me on a prophylactic dose of azithromycin indefinitely, with reviews every 6 months. This is a treatment protocol that I have never heard nor seen anywhere. Basically, it is 250mg of azithromycin 3 x per week. What it does is protects me from any of these nasties returning and also the low dose is a biofilm buster, so over a period (years even) the biofilms will be broken down. This may even work on our prostate problem...... only time will tell.

These bacteria form biofilms and follow the sugar trail .... SIBO will always return because they grow along the sugar trail coming down from the mouth .... They enter the lymphatic system and live off the glucose circulating around the body. They enter the vagina and live off the glucose pumped out of the cervix between ovulation and menstruation, they enter the prostate and find an abundance of sugar and thrive there too.

There is something that i have learnt that is significant. Low e-coli levels in stool samples = severe muscle pain .... something for us all to think about.

So this is how I would 'cure' myself if I found out today I had CFS and was pretty sure it related to gram positive biofilms:

Cease all simple sugars and all probiotic supplements and reduce fibre intake (fibre also can irritate the gut)

xylitol gum
Half a teaspoon of powdered kelp per day (feed the e-coli)
CoQ10 supplements
Magnesium Chelate supplements
Bicarbonate of soda 1tsp in water 3 x per day
Bone broth etc. to fix gut

Oral Vancomycin 250mg 3 x per day + Augmentin Duo Forte 2 x per day for 28 days
This clears out the bad guys in the gut

Replace the gut flora with kefir, 100 to 200 mls directly poured in the rectum every day for a week, and drink after every meal.

The next step I would use is to clear out the lymphatic system and the mucous membranes

Clarithromycin/erythromycin + doxycyclene for 3 to 6 months (I have just completed this although the doxy only lasted for 3 months)
xylitol gum
Half a teaspoon of powdered kelp per day (feed the e-coli)
CoQ10 supplements
Magnesium Chelate supplements
Bicarbonate of soda 1tsp in water 3 x per day
Bone broth etc. to keep gut fixed
Digestive enzymes
Kefir rectum flushes, Oral kefir, sauerkraut, fermented vegetables, avoid simple sugars, wheat and dairy..... replace the lost bad bacteria with good ones.

The ongoing prophylactic treatment of 250mg of azithromycin 3 times per week for a currently undetermined period.

The alternative is IV antibiotics, BUT it is highly unlikely that this will ever happen here in Australia at least.

Why can't we detect this infection, because the damage is done at the cellular level, it is not in the blood. That is why there are no consistent 'biomarkers' ..... According to my doctor, cellular biopsy's need to be taken and the samples need to be snapped frozen in liquid nitrogen within a few seconds and then shipped to a specialized lab for analysis at huge expense. My doctor would not even entertain the idea.

The only other thing I know is that it can be contagious and that I believe a lot of 'mental health' issues which are becoming prevelant in our society are mild forms of this condition. But this is a whole new argument and my partner is a mental health nurse who still believes this is all in our heads ......

A genetic disposition .... I will argue in a lot of cases that it is actually more to do with bacterial transfer through the generations .......

I believe that the undetectable infection is curable, but some of the damage done is not reversible ........
 
Last edited:

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hello Elph,

Would you take the vancomycin for 4 weeks (how much?) at the same time as commencing the clarith and doxy?

I'm seriously considering this protocol, plus the fmt also. I 'd like to time it so my whole family can do it at once. I may need to wait until my son is old enough to handle all that abx.


Mark

I have tried to get my family treated .... they won't do anything until they are at least 18 .... Only a pediatrician can do anything under that age .... and everyone reckons I am a fruit loop ....

Checking the acid levels in your family's urine may give a hint to what is going on. I found that as my symptoms worsened, my urine was more acidic. Urine should have a ph higher than 7.

I believe that twitching muscles is from too much acid build up that results in calcification. The body starts pulling calcium out of the bones and dumps it in the muscles to counteract the acidity .... this is the start of osteo arthritis. A cut back in calcium intake and increasing magnesium intake may help. Magnesium is a calcium carrier so it will pick up the calcium and take it back into the bones where it should be. This strategy worked for me along with reducing overall acid levels.

Cheers,

Darren.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
hi elph,
thanks for that. Didnt have ABX since nov 13.
I was symptom free for a few months after that triple ABX in 2013 that included clarith. The bastards re-populate somehow.
I remember distinctly my tongue clear at that time after i cleared the candida thrush post ABX. People think candida is main player here...but i dont think it is....its different strains....like you same gram positive ones.
I would say your strep stool levels dropped.
I done stool sample 5 weeks ago with Kenny de meirler and I was very low energy then. I will clear my tongue and retest stool and compare levels.
DeMeirleir had strong theory on that (H2S) in 2009 but he lapsed it and is now bias towards lyme.

Strange thing...many CFS docs promote stone age eating...I find vegan more beneficial. dont know if these bug prefer animal proteins or what and "stick" or cling to the meat proteins.
Probiotics help a little but they just "bolster" good bacteria.....dont kill bad ones. so you have crowded gut with good and bad.
Hi Greg,
I do stoneage eating most of the time .... it is sugar (carbohydrates) that is the problem.
H2S is part of the problem, I reckon D-Lactate is a bigger problem, and the damage it does is undetectable with standard tests.D-lactate crosses the blood-brain barrier and causes all those 'mental' issues we have. Calcium collects where there is acid which results in short circuits within the brain ....

Too many bacteria acting in the same way ..... you are right when you say that you can have a crowded gut with good and bad, and still not be cured.

Cheers.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Something that I have missed .... The further value of e-coli. Below are my 2 stool samples taken a considerable time apart and show you exactly the difference between mild and severe symptoms.

In the latest test, there is low e-coli and pretty much nothing else other than D-lactate producing bacteria. e-coli produces CoQ10, but is also homofermentive and has a D-Dehydrogenase gene which produces D-lactic acid.

My initial interpretation was incorrect ....

Previously I had an imbalance of D-Lactate to L-Lactate .... second test shows practically no L-lactates ...... Just D-lactates and H2S producers ....

I would really like to find out now if pure D-lactic acid causes a burning sensation of the mucous membranes ....

I think it is time for a test ... Anybody know where I can buy D-lactic acid here in Australia?
 

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Last edited:

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Below are my 2 stool samples taken a considerable time apart and show you exactly the difference between mild and severe symptoms.

Thanks for posting these results. The second set of results, were they after antibiotic therapy?
 
Messages
59
Hi Mark,

Sorry about the delay of getting back to you, but I have some more to update you on ..... this post will probably take a while but I hope it is worth it. .....

This specifically relates to the discussions and treatment that I have had with the infectious disease specialist that has been listening to my theory and treating me accordingly. I do need to point out however Mark that after so long, it is highly unlikely that oral antibiotics will resolve our prostate issues .... BUT, never say die. There is a clinic in China that direct injects abx into the prostate, and there is also phage therapy, which I will now be pursuing.

The basis of the undetectable infection can be seen on teeth. Biofilm forming bacteria form on the teeth in the presence of sugar and minerals resulting in calcification .... this causes tooth decay and gum disease .... They produce organic acids and biotoxins which my research has shown is the root cause of our condition. Personally, I do not understand how this has slipped under the medical professions radar, but it has .... and we are the result of it .... Systemic biofilms, or microscopic tartar spread throughout the body ....

The prostate is a very difficult one, so I will deal with that seperately, and as the good doctor said to me, we can't use a toothbrush to get the tartar out of the prostate ....

I have done something really interesting, the last week of my clarithromycin treatment I started colon flushes with Kefir using a turkey baster ....... I am happy to say that the results have been somewhat dramatic. Before I go to bed I lay on my left side and use the turkey baster to place about 150mls of live kefir milk made with granules up my backside. I thought I was feeling pretty good BUT, now I feel a whole heap better. My total concern with FMT is the risk of a serious infection slipping through the safety net .... I reckon that this is a good alternative so fingers crossed ...

The other development is my doctor decided to put me on a prophylactic dose of azithromycin indefinitely, with reviews every 6 months. This is a treatment protocol that I have never heard nor seen anywhere. Basically, it is 250mg of azithromycin 3 x per week. What it does is protects me from any of these nasties returning and also the low dose is a biofilm buster, so over a period (years even) the biofilms will be broken down. This may even work on our prostate problem...... only time will tell.

These bacteria form biofilms and follow the sugar trail .... SIBO will always return because they grow along the sugar trail coming down from the mouth .... They enter the lymphatic system and live off the glucose circulating around the body. They enter the vagina and live off the glucose pumped out of the cervix between ovulation and menstruation, they enter the prostate and find an abundance of sugar and thrive there too.

There is something that i have learnt that is significant. Low e-coli levels in stool samples = severe muscle pain .... something for us all to think about.

So this is how I would 'cure' myself if I found out today I had CFS and was pretty sure it related to gram positive biofilms:

Cease all simple sugars and all probiotic supplements and reduce fibre intake (fibre also can irritate the gut)

xylitol gum
Half a teaspoon of powdered kelp per day (feed the e-coli)
CoQ10 supplements
Magnesium Chelate supplements
Bicarbonate of soda 1tsp in water 3 x per day
Bone broth etc. to fix gut

Oral Vancomycin 250mg 3 x per day + Augmentin Duo Forte 2 x per day for 28 days
This clears out the bad guys in the gut

Replace the gut flora with kefir, 100 to 200 mls directly poured in the rectum every day for a week, and drink after every meal.

The next step I would use is to clear out the lymphatic system and the mucous membranes

Clarithromycin/erythromycin + doxycyclene for 3 to 6 months (I have just completed this although the doxy only lasted for 3 months)
xylitol gum
Half a teaspoon of powdered kelp per day (feed the e-coli)
CoQ10 supplements
Magnesium Chelate supplements
Bicarbonate of soda 1tsp in water 3 x per day
Bone broth etc. to keep gut fixed
Digestive enzymes
Kefir rectum flushes, Oral kefir, sauerkraut, fermented vegetables, avoid simple sugars, wheat and dairy..... replace the lost bad bacteria with good ones.

The ongoing prophylactic treatment of 250mg of azithromycin 3 times per week for a currently undetermined period.

The alternative is IV antibiotics, BUT it is highly unlikely that this will ever happen here in Australia at least.

Why can't we detect this infection, because the damage is done at the cellular level, it is not in the blood. That is why there are no consistent 'biomarkers' ..... According to my doctor, cellular biopsy's need to be taken and the samples need to be snapped frozen in liquid nitrogen within a few seconds and then shipped to a specialized lab for analysis at huge expense. My doctor would not even entertain the idea.

The only other thing I know is that it can be contagious and that I believe a lot of 'mental health' issues which are becoming prevelant in our society are mild forms of this condition. But this is a whole new argument and my partner is a mental health nurse who still believes this is all in our heads ......

A genetic disposition .... I will argue in a lot of cases that it is actually more to do with bacterial transfer through the generations .......

I believe that the undetectable infection is curable, but some of the damage done is not reversible ........

Hi Darren,

Thanks for your reply and updated protocol.

I've looked into the Chinese clinics offering 4-6 week continuous daily abx and herbal therapy, whilst also treating your partner. The Chinese take diagnosis and thorough treatment seriously, something unheard of and unavailable in Australia.

The insertion of milk kefir grains, compared with fmt is the safer bet, imo. My doc thinks the fecal matter should be taken from elderly healthy people as opposed to young healthy people, as "one day" an unknown illness may still pop up in a younger body.

Dom, a Kefir guru in south australia has a protocol which cured his ulcerative colitis. You've probably seen it/using it? I've tried posting it twice but this site blocks it as spam. It definitely isn't.

I'm currently stockpiling grains for this protocol.

I've read on this site about the benefits of resistant starch and it appears an excellent way to "bus in" good bugs into the colon. Going direct and avoiding the stomach altogether, as you are with kefir injections, ensures good bugs best transit to the prostate also.

Colloidal silver is definitely making a difference, as is allimax (expensive) and monolaurin. My research indicates these would bolster abx therapy also. Am still taking gse and have just added candex, nac and quercetin. Will update if they are positive.

Cheers
Mark
 
Messages
59
I have tried to get my family treated .... they won't do anything until they are at least 18 .... Only a pediatrician can do anything under that age .... and everyone reckons I am a fruit loop ....

Checking the acid levels in your family's urine may give a hint to what is going on. I found that as my symptoms worsened, my urine was more acidic. Urine should have a ph higher than 7.

I believe that twitching muscles is from too much acid build up that results in calcification. The body starts pulling calcium out of the bones and dumps it in the muscles to counteract the acidity .... this is the start of osteo arthritis. A cut back in calcium intake and increasing magnesium intake may help. Magnesium is a calcium carrier so it will pick up the calcium and take it back into the bones where it should be. This strategy worked for me along with reducing overall acid levels.

Cheers,

Darren.

Hi Darren,

Epilem has been prescribed to me (taurine is the natural substitute) via our pediatrician to see if it's effective in helping nerve pain and twitching (which also wakes me up) and therefore potentially suitable for my son. I haven't commenced as lm trying to better gauge effectiveness of current protocol.

But l can't wait forever, he's still waking, twitching and in some pain. At 2, abx is out of the question. Vit C and neurological bandaids is best docs can offer. We did supplement zinc, magnesium and iron (all low on his bloods) but have paused as it didn't seem to make much difference...plus bacteria can use some of this material for biofilms.
 
Messages
59
I have the gene for coealiac disease, but prior to this infection wheat was never a real problem.

Diet is near identical to you Darren, I've added selenium and kelp thanks to your list. Only other additions are:
3-6tbs coconut oil a day
zinc
vitamin C
kombucha

Im aware of candida adapting to low/no carb diet and becoming harder to balance and wonder if these pathogenic bugs might also be adapting. But l haven't seen a better diet alternative. I know we're potentially starving good bugs. I'm trusting Kefir milk to reload.

A leafy green smoothie with tumeric and pepper, ginger first thing in the morning helps reduce inflammation.

Colloidal silver is definitely making a difference, as is allimax (expensive) and monolaurin. My research indicates these would bolster abx therapy also. Am still taking gse and have just added candex, nac and quercetin. Will update if they are positive.

Im not on abx, as I'd also need my doc to support suppressive (prophylactic) therapy or treat my partner to avoid reinfection and l know she'd be very apprehensive.

We've discussed Dr Butts (bioscreen) pulsing/surging abx therapy to knockout strep/pathogens. I personally wouldn't give them the chance to regroup once commencing abx therapy. My doc thinks otherwise...

Darren l don't need to tell you, this isn't in our heads. I notice reduction in pain, twitching to tingling or buzzing in the region to complete ease within a one hour window of taking Colloidal/allimax/monolaurin and certain herbs, sometimes minutes.

Mark
 
Messages
59
Darren, thanks again for your update and current protocol. l'm grateful to be engaging here. Your ideas and theories reflect mine, l still beat myself up about not pushing harder for a cesar birth. Of course it's pathogenic organisms at the heart of many mental and physical conditions "without cure". Docs also thought l was a hypochondriac at the time.

I agree we may never be the same, but l'm fully vested in myand my sons life.

Glad you have a doc pushing the envelope as much as you are yourself.

Mark
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Thanks for posting these results. The second set of results, were they after antibiotic therapy?
Hi Sidereal,

It was after Vancomycin which was the first part of my Fecal Matter Transplant treatment that I have not yet completed, and I am hoping I won't now that I am using kefir.

I have seen a lot of these test results and pretty much everybody with severe CFS or Fibromyalgia has a similar profile to the second test. People with anxiety, panic attacks, depression, mild CFS, migranes, thyroid problems etc. have a similar profile to my first test.

I believe the answer to curing this, is with abx. and then replacing bad gut bacteria with good gut bacteria with FMT, or as I am currently doing now puting live kefir milk up my backside.

I believe the probiotic has to be flushed directly into the colon, not taken by mouth. They also need to be wild type live bacteria that are found in products like kefir grains or other peoples feces.
 
Last edited:

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Darren, thanks again for your update and current protocol. l'm grateful to be engaging here. Your ideas and theories reflect mine, l still beat myself up about not pushing harder for a cesar birth. Of course it's pathogenic organisms at the heart of many mental and physical conditions "without cure". Docs also thought l was a hypochondriac at the time.

I agree we may never be the same, but l'm fully vested in myand my sons life.

Glad you have a doc pushing the envelope as much as you are yourself.

Mark
Hi Mark,

I pushed so hard I have been in a legal battle with several medical people including the local pathology lab that have accused me with defamation .... As well as being forced into 'counselling' for being obsessive ....

Not sure if this suits you but I believe phage therapy offers the best chance of beating this .... AND it can be used on children. The cost is about $6k US for the preperation of the treatment, about $4k per person for treatment, plus airfares and accommodation for 2 to 4 weeks in Georgia (Europe) depending on how we use it.

It takes 2 weeks to develop the specific phages and we can then either stay for another 2 weeks to have it administered, or send the solution back to Aus to be administered here. I have checked with customs and phage solution is ok to be imported to AUS as long as it is for the person using it, and there is less than 3 months supply.

In order for this therapy to work we need to know exactly what bacteria to go after, the only way we can do that here in Australia, is with a stool test from Bioscreen and then it is a bit of an educated guess as to what is in the prostate.

Phage therapy has been used successfully to cure chronic enterococcus faecalis prostatitis, which is like viridans strep prostatitis .... almost impossible to cure as they act in the same way .... biofilms, calcification, organic acids, hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide etc.Enterococcus prostatitis is detectable, mixed viridans strep prostatitis is not ...

The phage people don't know enough about this, but have listened to my theories and believe they can come up with a solution that will work ..... They just need to know exactly what bacteria we want them to go after, so they can isolate the strains and match phages to kill them. If we could find a lab that would isolate the bacteria for us here in Australia, we could send them the live bacteria and they could develop the solution without us travelling there.

We still need to replace the bad bugs we take out with good live bacteria.

I would be very surprised Mark if Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis isn't involved.

I am happy for you to call me if you wish to discuss: 0419 140 088

Cheers.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
980
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
hi elph,
hows you doing bud.
well i was with kenny de meirleir and got results.
Lots of his stuff is tied with your ideas. I have extremely high d-lacate in serum and borrelia infection.
My RBC had dropped and blood "thickens" due to infection.
VO2Max a shocking 13ml/min. Around 40% of expectation.
His tests are super extensive and course of therapy includes:
Clarith 500mg day X 3 months
B12 injects 10mg X 2 weekly (not for low B12....to break biofilms he said)
lubrokimase (bioflim buster)
soda bicarb (biofilm buster)
Tetraysl Abx.
Vsl3 probio.
Liposomol Vit c
Molonaurin (biofilm buster)

I combine this with Cowden Protocol.

A few other minor things lactoferrin...

This infection creates spue....film and other shit that taxes our liver not to mention huge cardiovascular problems with circulating blood coagulation.

I'll let you know how the treatment rocks.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
hi elph,
hows you doing bud.
well i was with kenny de meirleir and got results.
Lots of his stuff is tied with your ideas. I have extremely high d-lacate in serum and borrelia infection.
My RBC had dropped and blood "thickens" due to infection.
VO2Max a shocking 13ml/min. Around 40% of expectation.
His tests are super extensive and course of therapy includes:
Clarith 500mg day X 3 months
B12 injects 10mg X 2 weekly (not for low B12....to break biofilms he said)
lubrokimase (bioflim buster)
soda bicarb (biofilm buster)
Tetraysl Abx.
Vsl3 probio.
Liposomol Vit c
Molonaurin (biofilm buster)

I combine this with Cowden Protocol.

A few other minor things lactoferrin...

This infection creates spue....film and other shit that taxes our liver not to mention huge cardiovascular problems with circulating blood coagulation.

I'll let you know how the treatment rocks.
Hey Greg,

Fingers crossed ....... U gotta keep the probiotics up .... Have to replace what is killed off, although I am not sure if vsl 3 is colonising, so it may have to be taken forever .....

I keep forgetting about B vitamins ..... I put it under my tongue every day.

Need to check out the other stuff he put you on .....

Good luck :)
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Hi Sidereal,

It was after Vancomycin which was the first part of my Fecal Matter Transplant treatment that I have not yet completed, and I am hoping I won't now that I am using kefir.

I have seen a lot of these test results and pretty much everybody with severe CFS or Fibromyalgia has a similar profile to the second test. People with anxiety, panic attacks, depression, mild CFS, migranes, thyroid problems etc. have a similar profile to my first test.

I believe the answer to curing this, is with abx. and then replacing bad gut bacteria with good gut bacteria with FMT, or as I am currently doing now puting live kefir milk up my backside.

I believe the probiotic has to be flushed directly into the colon, not taken by mouth. They also need to be wild type live bacteria that are found in products like kefir grains or other peoples feces.

Thanks @Elph68. I agree, there is a common theme running through moderate-to-severe ME/CFS guts - high levels of H2S and D-lactate producers. Interestingly, KDM published on these topics several years ago but then inexplicably shifted his focus to Lyme disease. Also inexplicable is his use of LAB probiotic supplements since the lactate produced by these species will further fuel the very thing making people ill in the first place.

I would disagree that antibiotics are the solution. I think your post-vancomycin test looks much worse than the initial test. I've seen other stool tests posted online after intensive antibiotic therapy and the general trend is severe worsening of D-lactic acidosis and overgrowth of H2S producers.

Instead of pursuing further antibiotic therapy, have you considered repopulating the gut with a butyrate producing Firmicute species Clostridium butyricum? Unlike nearly all other commercial probiotics which would worsen your lactate problem, C butyricum produces butyrate which is very beneficial. It also displaces pathogenic Clostridia and other pathogens.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Thanks @Elph68. I agree, there is a common theme running through moderate-to-severe ME/CFS guts - high levels of H2S and D-lactate producers. Interestingly, KDM published on these topics several years ago but then inexplicably shifted his focus to Lyme disease. Also inexplicable is his use of LAB probiotic supplements since the lactate produced by these species will further fuel the very thing making people ill in the first place.

I would disagree that antibiotics are the solution. I think your post-vancomycin test looks much worse than the initial test. I've seen other stool tests posted online after intensive antibiotic therapy and the general trend is severe worsening of D-lactic acidosis and overgrowth of H2S producers.

Instead of pursuing further antibiotic therapy, have you considered repopulating the gut with a butyrate producing Firmicute species Clostridium butyricum? Unlike nearly all other commercial probiotics which would worsen your lactate problem, C butyricum produces butyrate which is very beneficial. It also displaces pathogenic Clostridia and other pathogens.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/
Hi Sidereal,

As stated, my gut was made worse on purpose, it was made that way in order to get ready for a fecal matter (poo) transplant.

I put them up for information and show the difference between mild and more severe symptoms .... My children are like my second one ..... This worries me a lot ....

All through this thread I keep mentioning that antibiotics are needed to kill the bad guys and break the biofilms, but FMT is needed to put good bacteria back.

I am trying kefir colon irrigation at the moment to see if it can be used as an alternative to FMT. After 2 weeks I can say that things have improved dramatically. My doc has me on a prophylactic antibiotic regime to keep the bad guys at bay while the good guys are flooding my system.

It is the type of lactic acid that seems to be the problem ..... D-lactate is toxic at the cellular level, L-lactate is used for fuel by the cells ..... So our body needs it.

Change the bacteria colonies back to L-lactate and we should normalise.

Can't comment on butyricum .... Don't know anything about it ..... There are a myriad of organic acids produced by our gut bugs .... Some good, some bad.

Cheers.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
980
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Thanks @Elph68. I agree, there is a common theme running through moderate-to-severe ME/CFS guts - high levels of H2S and D-lactate producers. Interestingly, KDM published on these topics several years ago but then inexplicably shifted his focus to Lyme disease. Also inexplicable is his use of LAB probiotic supplements since the lactate produced by these species will further fuel the very thing making people ill in the first place.

I would disagree that antibiotics are the solution. I think your post-vancomycin test looks much worse than the initial test. I've seen other stool tests posted online after intensive antibiotic therapy and the general trend is severe worsening of D-lactic acidosis and overgrowth of H2S producers.

Instead of pursuing further antibiotic therapy, have you considered repopulating the gut with a butyrate producing Firmicute species Clostridium butyricum? Unlike nearly all other commercial probiotics which would worsen your lactate problem, C butyricum produces butyrate which is very beneficial. It also displaces pathogenic Clostridia and other pathogens.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/
Hi @Sidereal ,
KDM still focus on D-Lacate as part of overall treatment in conjunction with infectious agents. So...still incorporated as part of treatment plan.
My serum d-Lacate was 2.73...should be around 1.00.
I attached my metagenomics stool report.
Ratio of firmicutes/bacteriodetes is low and also gram + and gram - is low.

The d-lacate i think is a result of this dybosis.
I dont know to add bacteriodetes to bring the ratio to normal or increase firmicites. Its unclear to me.

Any idea which bacteria i need to address? boost firmicutes or lower them....boost bacteiodes or lower them..

thanks.[/QUOTE]
 

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Sidereal

Senior Member
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4,856
It is the type of lactic acid that seems to be the problem ..... D-lactate is toxic at the cellular level, L-lactate is used for fuel by the cells ..... So our body needs it.

Change the bacteria colonies back to L-lactate and we should normalise.

The problem is, L-lactate and D-lactate can be inter-converted back and forth by some gut bacteria. Therefore, any extra L-lactate could make things even worse.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
I dont know to add bacteriodetes to bring the ratio to normal or increase firmicites. Its unclear to me.

Hi @gregh286, thanks for posting your results. I think it's unclear to all of us how to fix this. I will just say that I am very concerned by results we've seen after the gut has been nuked with antibiotics.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
The problem is, L-lactate and D-lactate can be inter-converted back and forth by some gut bacteria. Therefore, any extra L-lactate could make things even worse.
Hi sidereal,

Yep, that is why I needed to kill the bad bugs and replace with good bugs.

Cheers
 
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