The shot gun approach- mitochondrial/ methylation/ antoxidants

[Allyson]

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Heaps have you tried going dairy-free? My appetite plumetted once I cut out dairy...the most drastic thing I have experienced; previously I was always craving food ... now its 3 small meals a day... if I really have to...

ctua;;y no w i think of it heaps I am not sure if it is the daury free or the licorice root caps that have changed my appetite as I started both together but something is working consitently and liqorice is said to stabilize blood sugar levels.

 

[heapsreal]

if your carb intake is reduce so does appetitte for some, when i eat very little carbs it really heps reduce my apetitte.

cheers!!!

 

[Allyson]

oh yes i find that with a high protein diet which is probably the same thing said another way

 

[Rand56]

For anyone taking creatine..you have to make sure to drink more water. Even if you are taking a small amount, be on the safe side and drink more water. Any insights on the best creatine to take? I've always heard about creatine monohydrate being good except for more bloating issues that come with it. I have some creatine orotate that I may get back on a small dosage of that. Anyone know both the pro's and con's of the orotate version?

 

[heapsreal]

I havent noticed any bloating with monohydrate, also i think most of the research on creatine has been on monohydrate. I did read a rumor that the other types of creatine is a marketing gimick to try and make their product sound better, but i dont really know, monohydrate seems the best priced and it works for me.

cheers!!!

 

[Allyson]

i am on monohydrate NOW brand caps and find no bloating or any other side effects
it is a win win med for me
I see Dr T recommended it years ago in his book and sorry I didn t start it sooner
I am sleeping better on it too

 

[Allyson]

only i will get powder next time not caps
no onfo on orotate sorry
this useful link was just posted on NC forum - further discussion about the Mitochindrial paper

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=17086

 

[taniaaust1]

the melatonin CIRCADIN is better than the BIOVEA brand btw Heaps, i notice no effect at all with the Biovea unfortunatley while the circadin does seem to improve sleep

Ive tried both of those and for myself it was the opposite way around to what Allyson experienced.. for me the Biovea melatonin helps (it was their sublingual pills I took) and the Circadin one (which was a slow release one) didnt help at all.

 

[heapsreal]

Ive tried both of those and for myself it was the opposite way around to what Allyson experienced.. for me the Biovea melatonin helps (it was their sublingual pills I took) and the Circadin one (which was a slow release one) didnt help at all.

I tried valdoxan which works on melatonin receptors as well as a specific serotonin receptor 5ht2c, its marketed as an antidepressant. I tried this and it helped some but needed to use it with other meds for sleep. Due to price i dont think its worth it but if the price comes down then i would consider it.
I have a script for circadin so will try it soon and compare.

 

[Adster]

Melatonin taken sublingually appears to be many times "stronger" than when it is taken orally, for me at least. I've ended up with what was obviously too high a dose by using an oral tablet sublingually, which resulted in pretty nasty anxiety and confusion in a semi sleep state. So you do have to be a bit careful with this stuff. Now, if I feel like I'm not going to get to sleep so easily, I hold the tablet under my tongue for 10-20 seconds before swallowing it. The effect is quite noticeable.

 

[Sherlock]

I did read a rumor that the other types of creatine is a marketing gimick to try and make their product sound better, but i dont really know, monohydrate seems the best priced and it works for me.

That's not a rumor, it's the truth Anybody can sell generic CM, so to make money the supplement makers come up with supposedly superior formulations, of which I've never seen any study that shows an actual benefit. That's just another case of arguments being made by pathways and mechanisms, which don't hold to be true in actual outcomes.

 

[Sherlock]

i am on monohydrate NOW brand caps and find no bloating or any other side effect...

AND

only i will get powder next time not caps

As for me, if I don't get the expected water weight gain then I think the creatine was wasted. Strength will not improve otherwise. As far as other effects, such as in the brain? I don't know.

You might have heard of Will Brink, a respected science-oriented writer on exercise and related nutrition. Here's his video on how you even need to make sure the crystals are completely dissolved in order to get the max benefit:

 

[Sherlock]

Iherbs dr's best ribose is what i have been using 8.8oz/250grams for $25.60, that looks abit cheaper then nuvalife.

Here is similar:
http://www.beyond-a-century.com/D-Ribose-BioEnergy-Powder--200-grams_p_192.html

200 gr for $20, there are shipping coupons that vary month by month, and very occasionally shipping is free.

Having been on more than a few discussion groups of nutrition-wonks over the years, I've never heard anything except good things about the quality of their powders. I know they are ultra reliable and ship quickly. I've never ordered d-ribose but have ordered other things through the years.

 

[Sherlock]

i note creatine is found naturally in meat and fish which may explain why the paleo diet helps
I have been on Creatine for about 3 weeks and it is the one thing that has helped the most.
Last night I had a great sleep and woke feeliing like i had slept well
went for a 30 min bike ride and 20 min walk last nite too and have not crashed today
it seems you take a highish dose for month then go on to maintenance dose.
This is fantastic ...my muscles are feeling better, i am feeling more energetic and my mood is way up too.
Still not bursting with energy and have not pushed the limits by any stretch but i am happy to be feeling so much better even if still in bed most the time.
i am surprised i have not heard more about Creatine though i see it is on the MITO website for mitochondrial diseases.
Ia lso take IM b12 fortnightly and alcar and ALA plus glutaimine and d ribose
noticed a big difference in sleep with b 12
muscle aches disappeared with D ribose
and energy seems fto be returning with creatine
the melatonin CIRCADIN is better than the BIOVEA brand btw Heaps, i notice no effect at all with the Biovea unfortunatley while the circadin does seem to improve sleep

Hey, Allyson, it's good to see you are having such good results.

As far as creatine in beef, it works out to something like eating pounds of beef to get the 5 g in one teaspoon of CM. But yes, knowing that it occurs naturally in beef should allay anyone's fears that it is like some drug.

As far as the loading phase that you mention, I don't do that anymore. It seems I get the same effect almost as fast without wasting the amounts on the loading phase (usually 3-5x the 5 g).

 

[Sherlock]

ah I am having trouble navigating this new site
creatine is new for me and may take a while to kick in so i will perservere as with l carnitine and d ribose - both of which i already take - it is supposed to help in atp cycle.
it says on my bottle to take it with a sweet drink

that has always been advised to get the insulin spike that aids absorption. Whey protein and many other proteins also spike insulin.

and before and after exercise- anyone know the reason for this?

that's been observed to be helpful in actual use, and explained because of the ATP -- either stoking up beforehand or replenishing after.

 

[Sherlock]

speaking of d-ribose and recovery, if anyone's interested there's a fairly new product out in the world called Synthagen that's apparently an assortment of ingredients claimed to help with RNA synthesis etc. I've never bought any and probably never will, I'm just mentioning it because I'd guess it contains whatever is currently claimed to be of some value in that area.

http://www.musclemass.com/MASS_PRO_Synthagen_ProtoGeneX.html

However, I do see TMG (betaine) mentioned, which I'd just bought to try as a methyl donor. I suppose that I'll also see if it aids in PWO recovery at all.

 

[heapsreal]

Here is similar:
http://www.beyond-a-century.com/D-Ribose-BioEnergy-Powder--200-grams_p_192.html

200 gr for $20, there are shipping coupons that vary month by month, and very occasionally shipping is free.

Having been on more than a few discussion groups of nutrition-wonks over the years, I've never heard anything except good things about the quality of their powders. I know they are ultra reliable and ship quickly. I've never ordered d-ribose but have ordered other things through the years.

wow, there creatine is cheap $14 for 1000grams

 

[Allyson]

thanks for all the useful info Sherlock
i thought protein did NOT cause an insulin spike? a high gi food or sugar will but protein and vegies do dod not what was what i believed to be the case form my reading

also I can t see the clip as my laptop is old and sound is broken but i had thought that the capsules were not dissolving well and will now take care to dissolve the Creatine powder carefully before drinking; thanks for posting - was there any other vital info in the clip please?

 

[heapsreal]

I was thinking about the warm water dissolving creatine, now anything that u drink creatine with even cold drinks will eventually warm up inside the stomach, so i dont think it would matter much really??

Protein will stimulate an insulin release but its very mild compared to carbs and fat has almost no insulin releasing effects. protein also stimulates the hormone glucagon which helps your body to use non glucose sources of energy eg fats and certain amino's as an energy supply. glucagon helps balance out insulins glucose lowering effects and is the reason why protein has appetitte suppressing effects, where as carbs alone stimulate appettite as insulin is spiked and lowers glucose levels below normal and then gives the urge to eat more carbs to try and raise blood glucose levels again. this can get into a viscious circle and is a big cause of putting on weight and eating too much. This is whylow carb diets are effective for weight loss. im rambling but thats the low down on macro's and effects on insulin, plus there are variables between individuals etc depending on ones insulin sensitivity.

cheers!!!

 

[Sherlock]

thanks for all the useful info Sherlock
i thought protein did NOT cause an insulin spike? a high gi food or sugar will but protein and vegies do dod not what was what i believed to be the case form my reading

also I can t see the clip as my laptop is old and sound is broken but i had thought that the capsules were not dissolving well and will now take care to dissolve the Creatine powder carefully before drinking; thanks for posting - was there any other vital info in the clip please?

Hi, Allyson and Heapsreal:
There was the landmark study on the insulin index, and here is an article with comments from the authors, Holt and Brand-Miller:
http://www.healthcentral.com/diabetes/c/17/1615/insulin-index/

Some foods (such as meat, fish and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin

Taking a look at the actual study, from 1997:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf
with white bread being 100: beef scores at 51, pasta at 40, Honeysmacks cereal 67, apples 59 etc

Now at the moment I can't find a figure for whey, but I believe it's higher than beef and you can see the following study where they choose whey because of its insulinogenic properties in trying to lessen serum glucose rises after meals:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/82/1/69.abstract
"Effect of whey on blood glucose and insulin responses to composite breakfast and lunch meals in type 2 diabetic subjects"

Background: Whey proteins have insulinotropic effects and reduce the postprandial glycemia in healthy subjects. The mechanism is not known, but insulinogenic amino acids and the incretin hormones seem to be involved.

Also, as far as dissolving, the usual approach has been to use very hot water and then cool it for drinking. If you put it in average body temp water (~97F for PWCs haha then it won't dissolve completely. It's said that eventually bacteria in the intestines will get it and then possibly generate gas. Btw, you can't mix it up long beforehand, because it will be turning into creatinine. That's why nobody sells bottled creatine, but then again I bet somebody does these days and they will make sales.

Allyson, the video shows using room temp tap water compared to hot tap water. Can you make it out in this image? Even the hot tap water does not dissolve it all.