The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Aileen]

Sweet smelling sweat=acetaldehyde. I would venture a guess that this is dehydrogenation at work.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Mannose, is a hexose sugar. I know bifidobacteria do special things with these.

What things specifically?
Should we be using specific prebiotics to cultivate specific strains? How do I find out which prebiotics feed which probiotics? If you, or anyone, could direct me to a simple list that would be very helpful.

 

[Gestalt]

What type of NAG supplement did you use? Do you know from what source it is derived?

I was using: http://www.ultimateglucosamine.com/professionals/product.shtml
Not sure on it's source...

 

[Ripley]

For those having congested lymph nodes... I stumbled onto an old recipe that is pretty crazy. Hope it helps someone else, and it's easy to try.

Over the past few weeks I've had congested occipital lymph nodes (at the base of the skull), which have made my neck a bit stiff. Nothing has really helped until this weekend when, out of desperation, I tried an ancient "carrot poultice" recipe which I was sure was going to be a waste of time.

See: http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/poultice.html

I added a little ginger to the poultice, as recommended. It made my neck warm and seemed to help a little bit. Wasn't overly impressed, but it felt like it had done something. 48 hours later, I still have a stiff neck, but the occipital lymph nodes are much less of a bother now, and now the stiffness seems to have moved on to the more cervical lymph nodes. First time in a month I think I've managed to move things along.

Seems like it might be some progress. At any rate, if your lymph are congested from all this immune-stimulating, give a carrot poultice a try!

Who knew carrot starch on the skin could even do anything for the lymph?!

 

[lizw118]

Aileen,
I think dehydrogenation is a good thing because it clears out the toxins from alcohols, particularly from candida, in my own case. Personally, the sweet smelling sweat is always accompanied by a relief in symptoms for me. When I went to acupuncture three times a week a while back, I achieved that effect and had some improvement in my symptoms.
I read some things online that some people have a hard time with the dehydrogenation process due to a lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase 2. The lack of enzyme activity causes a build of of aldehyde, which is toxic. This build up can certainly be caused by candida. I think this might be part of my own problem, because I don't react well to alcohol anymore. I think I have so much candida now that I can't clear out the toxins fast enough, maybe. I have been on ABX for a while for Lyme that probably my candida is worse.

I am going to make this subject a new thread here.

 

[Asklipia]

Update on the dreaded fava bean salad.
See here and here. For those who missed the beginning.
We had one yesterday, exactly the same as usual (only the fava beans had been frozen from last time).
Nothing at all to report.
So either we have killed whatever died the previous times. Nothing left to kill.
Or the fava beans lose their power if you freeze them. They did feel a bit harder, I suppose some RS3 might be there.
Next week I shall prepare another dreaded salad with fresh fava beans if I find some.
To make sure.

 

[Gemma]

For those having congested lymph nodes... I stumbled onto an old recipe that is pretty crazy. Hope it helps someone else, and it's easy to try.

Over the past few weeks I've had congested occipital lymph nodes (at the base of the skull), which have made my neck a bit stiff. Nothing has really helped until this weekend when, out of desperation, I tried an ancient "carrot poultice" recipe which I was sure was going to be a waste of time.

See: http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/poultice.html

I added a little ginger to the poultice, as recommended. It made my neck warm and seemed to help a little bit. Wasn't overly impressed, but it felt like it had done something. 48 hours later, I still have a stiff neck, but the occipital lymph nodes are much less of a bother now, and now the stiffness seems to have moved on to the more cervical lymph nodes. First time in a month I think I've managed to move things along.

Seems like it might be some progress. At any rate, if your lymph are congested from all this immune-stimulating, give a carrot poultice a try!

Who knew carrot starch on the skin could even do anything for the lymph?!

Gods bless the old books, Ripley! I like the ginger ingredient in your concoction too!

 

[Gemma]

Update on the dreaded fava bean salad.
See here and here. For those who missed the beginning.
We had one yesterday, exactly the same as usual (only the fava beans had been frozen from last time).
Nothing at all to report.
So either we have killed whatever died the previous times. Nothing left to kill.
Or the fava beans lose their power if you freeze them. They did feel a bit harder, I suppose some RS3 might be there.
Next week I shall prepare another dreaded salad with fresh fava beans if I find some.
To make sure.

Might be useful to repeat it every two weeks or so ( the immune response lasts1-2 weeks, than gets deleted...)

Or find another source of lectins, for variety. Watch yourself, Asklipia, and do write it all down, please.

 

[Asklipia]

Or find another source of lectins, for variety. Watch yourself, Asklipia, and do write it all down, please.

You know, I don't think it is lectins only as other sources of lectins (other types of bean salad) did not have this effect.
I think this is specific to fava beans, as Ripley has indicated:

Purification and Modes of Antifungal Action by Vicia faba cv. Egypt Trypsin Inhibitor

I shall now wait for two weeks between taking the salad to give the immune response time to go down.

 

[Gemma]

You know, I don't think it is lectins only as other sources of lectins (other types of bean salad) did not have this effect.
I think this is specific to fava beans, as Ripley has indicated:

Purification and Modes of Antifungal Action by Vicia faba cv. Egypt Trypsin Inhibitor

I shall now wait for two weeks between taking the salad to give the immune response time to go down.

Not all lectins (see for instance Wiki) are created equal, and they play a big role in your immune response. You may have found the right type needed for you right now, specifically.

 

[Sushi]

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

This thread has been wandering way off topic. A number of posts have been moved to their appropriate place in the forum and comments on the wandering thread have been removed. If your post is "missing" look in relevant forums such as Sleep or Hair and Skin. Any further off-topic posts will be moved or deleted.

Please keep this thread on topic: Resistant Starch.

Thanks.

 

[Vegas]

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?


What things specifically?
Should we be using specific prebiotics to cultivate specific strains? How do I find out which prebiotics feed which probiotics? If you, or anyone, could direct me to a simple list that would be very helpful.

A fundamentally good thing, but may bring some undesirable side effects. The combination of symptoms was exactly what I was looking for because I think it reflects multiple examples including enhanced PDC function, which will be influenced by the increase in acetate and butyrate and the enhanced ability to neutralize peroxynitrite. Peroxynitrite and Nitric Oxide regulate these enzymes, so if you can suppress peroxynitrite you can increase enzymatic function.

I think this extends to decreasd lactate, better detoxification of acetaldehyde, increased metabolism of purines, less glutamate, more glutamine, more sulfate, less sulfite, better tolerance of cysteine foods, actually better tolerance of countless foods.

yes, I think that is the whole idea of resistant starch/glyconutrients, nurturing selected organisms.

Unfortunately, there is no quick reference. Developing such a list is a tedious process, and there are often contradictory reports, I haven't written any of this down, but I can try to summarize some of this from my notes some time.

 

[Vegas]

Aileen,
I think dehydrogenation is a good thing because it clears out the toxins from alcohols, particularly from candida, in my own case. Personally, the sweet smelling sweat is always accompanied by a relief in symptoms for me. When I went to acupuncture three times a week a while back, I achieved that effect and had some improvement in my symptoms.
I read some things online that some people have a hard time with the dehydrogenation process due to a lack of the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase 2. The lack of enzyme activity causes a build of of aldehyde, which is toxic. This build up can certainly be caused by candida. I think this might be part of my own problem, because I don't react well to alcohol anymore. I think I have so much candida now that I can't clear out the toxins fast enough, maybe. I have been on ABX for a while for Lyme that probably my candida is worse.

I am going to make this subject a new thread here.

Yes, this is the general idea, but there is more happening than just enhanced oxidation of acetaldehyde. The joint pain, I think, is resultant from the rise in the enzymatic capacity of xanthine oxidase, which is involved with acetaldehyde (like ALDH's) but also participates in the catalyst of xanthine to uric acid. This rise in enzymatic capabilities, which generate huge amounts of ROS would not take place if you were not successful in lowering peroxynitrite in the colon. With all due apologies to Mr. Pall, exogenous antioxidants are not going to do this all that well, but acetate/butyrate will. This is likely correlated to a displacement of SRB, both sulfur and sulfate reducing bacteria, which oxidize sulfate and acetate. Normally, they should only be present in the mucin layer at 1/1000 of the total mucousal community.

Guess what else will come up if you can keep the acetate and butyrate levels up? Sulfate.

 

[Vegas]

I was using: http://www.ultimateglucosamine.com/professionals/product.shtml
Not sure on it's source...

This may not be ideal because it is not a long-chain polymer complexed with another carbohydrate. I think you want something that can be selectively hydrolyzed in the colon. For example, some Bifidobacteria possess enzymatic capabilities that are exclusive to the genus in breaking certain beta glycosidic linkages.

 

[Gemma]

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

This thread has been wandering way off topic. A number of posts have been moved to their appropriate place in the forum and comments on the wandering thread have been removed. If your post is "missing" look in relevant forums such as Sleep or Hair and Skin. Any further off-topic posts will be moved or deleted.

Please keep this thread on topic: Resistant Starch.

Thanks.

Dear moderator,

I have no such illness as CFS/ME/or whatever. I was asked to come here to help.

I had very good reasons in asking all the questions and posting all my comments here.
Believe me or not but they are all related to RS.

I have ABSOLUTELY no time to search around and monitor hundreds of other threads.

 

[Ripley]

I have an idea... I happen to know that Gemma is in talks with a number of high-level RS-minded doctors behind the scenes — based on clues provided to the seemingly unrelated questions asked here — and is trying to piece some puzzle pieces together about the disease. We are lucky to have her — and her connections — as part of this conversation, but people of course want to stay on topic.

What Gemma needs are answers to simple questions about ME/CFS and it's relationship to certain provocations (like RS, Larch AG, mushrooms, fava beans, etc.).

Perhaps people who are interested in answering Gemma's questions could PM her directly and she could chat with them in a private multi-person conversation. And then if/when Gemma and her connections come across something for the group — and its relation to fermentable fibers/glycans/gut bugs — she could report back here. Sound good?

If so, just PM Gemma or me directly and we'll figure this out off-thread.

 

[adreno]

Or we could just keep things is a separate thread, named: "Gemma's question theread", "A couple questions about ME/CFS" or similar. This way we might even reach a broader audience than the people participating in this thread.

A little introduction/reasoning for the questions might also be a good idea. Something like: "RS intake is related to hair structure etc, etc, therefore I would like to ask about your hair" or similar.

 

[Sushi]

I have an idea... I happen to know that Gemma is in talks with a number of high-level RS-minded doctors behind the scenes — based on clues provided to the seemingly unrelated questions asked here — and is trying to piece some puzzle pieces together about the disease. We are lucky to have her — and her connections — as part of this conversation, but people of course want to stay on topic.

What Gemma needs are answers to simple questions about ME/CFS and it's relationship to certain provocations (like RS, Larch AG, mushrooms, fava beans, etc.).

Perhaps people who are interested in answering Gemma's questions could PM her directly and she could chat with them in a private multi-person conversation. And then if/when Gemma and her connections come across something for the group — and its relation to fermentable fibers/glycans/gut bugs — she could report back here. Sound good?

If so, just PM Gemma or me directly and we'll figure this out off-thread.

Very good suggestion, Ripley. Let's try that--keep the "seemingly" OT discussions to PMs until the connection with with fermentable fibers, etc. become clear--then add to this thread.

@Gemma
Thanks for coming here to help. This thread covers a wide range of topics and is quite complicated. This is daunting for members to follow--especially as most members have ME/CFS-induced cognitive impairments.

Ripley's suggestion could work. Let's keep the public discussion directly related to the thread title. We have sub-forums for most of the topics you introduced and until they can be directly related to the stated subject of this thread, they need to go in appropriate sub-forums.

Thanks,
Sushi

 

[kraken]

When would be a good time to introduce RS when already battling Candida? I started it briefly but quit because I wanted to test my Candida supplements first (Berberine, Oregano Oil, GSE, NAC and Molybdenum). Been on it for around 2 weeks now and doing pretty good aside from some die-off which is bearable.

 

[Hip]

This is indeed a long and wandering thread.

Now at 84 pages, I presume from this length that resistant starch must have proven helpful and beneficial for at least some aspects of ME/CFS.

Would anyone be able to summarize the actual observed benefits that ME/CFS patients on this forum have noticed from taking resistance starch. What ME/CFS symptoms does it improve? I notice that @Sushi commented earlier it helped reduce PEM.

 

[Ripley]

This is indeed a long and wandering thread.

Now at 84 pages, I presume from this length that resistance starch must have proven helpful and beneficial for at least some aspects of ME/CFS.

Would anyone be able to summarize the actual observed benefits that ME/CFS patients on this forum have noticed from taking resistance starch. What ME/CFS symptoms does it improve? I notice that @Sushi commented earlier it helped reduce PEM.

I would like to see this as well, as I believe it could be helpful for @Gemma 's research. My understanding, as someone who's observed every page of this thread from the beginning, is that the various fibers we've all tried have induced — presumably through modulating flora and generating prebiotic glycan metabolites — some very strong immune responses. For some, those immune responses have been favorable (increased energy, mild herx reactions that coincide with improvement of symptoms/PEM). For others, they have had a "honeymoon" period, followed by an abundance of what appear to be excess endotoxins that cannot be easily cleared, and generally feeling worse. And I believe a few people have felt worse from the get go. This lends to the notion that everyone's guts are very different.

I believe some of the best results — or at least most powerful results — from a handful of reports have come from taking small amounts of a Larch Arabinogalactan prebiotic. I would love to hear reports about that as well.

So, yes, please everyone let us know how you are doing — good or bad — with your fiber consumption (both natural and supplemental).