The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Vegas]

@Vegas. Thanks for listing the positive and negative effects you experienced from RS. The near resolution of Raynaud's sounds particularly intriguing and impressive. What dose of RS did you take to achieve these effects (ie, how many heaped teaspoons of RS, and how many times a day)? Did you use Bob's Red MIll Unmodified Potato Starch?

I'm actually not taking potato starch right now. It was clearly beneficial, but I am "studying" the effects of another prebiotic right now. Most recently, I was taking about a tsp. a couple of times a week. I did use the product you listed for the better part of about 4 months. Many of the benefits tailed off as I had to reduce the dosage, although there have been lasting benefits. Over time I have been able to (ostensibly) appreciate I couldn't sustained the dosage because I couldn't reasonably tolerate the effects of the associated inflammation. I think it is clearly worthwhile, but I am leaning toward other prebiotics. A couple of conclusions I have reached.

1. I think there may be some benefit to using other prebiotics before stimulating the principal exoenzymatic microbes. (Principally certain Bifidobacterial strains, that dominate the colonic extracellular enzymatic capacity). The resistant starches, specifically amylopectin, does this very well, but I believe this is, overall, better suited for less severe inflammatory disease processes, at least initially. It actually may be advantageous to use very small amounts, but the high inflammation this can create is contraindicated and probably counterproductive.
2. I am benefiting from selective glycosylation precursors. I believe certain prebiotics are likely to produce better results because they contribute to the synthesis of glycosylated lipids and proteins that comprise the mucin layer; these prebiotics specifically and selectively stimulate the expansion of those organisms required for the biosynthesis of these precursors. The mutulalism between host and bacteria both participate in the construction and deconstruction of this layer.
3. I have benefited from using very small quantities taken at intervals throughout the day.

 

[Vegas]

Yes... so the larger the dose, the less potent its immune-enhancing benefits are claimed to be. But keep in mind that even the highest molecular weight LAG will still pack a punch. And, truthfully, you might find even the less potent LAGs to be more than powerful enough. I believe @Vegas only takes half the normal dose of FiberAid™ and just only once every two or three days, if I recall. That's fairly astounding when you think about how small that is. In that case, the jar should last a very long time.

So, personally, I wouldn't toss your Larix. It still might be worth trying a pinch of it. Seriously, you don't need much.

I've been using about a half a gram of Source Natural twice a day. Breaking the tab in thirds. I have no idea how this compares to the other products, but I suspect the higher molecular weight products could be more problematic...more risk, more reward. They may more closely hit the target based upon the responses I observed.

The best results are coming from about 50 mg of chitin-glucan 3 x's a day.

 

[Vegas]

Thanks for your report Vegas. The lessening of raynauds also caught my eye as it is something I suffer from. Right now it isn't even that cold where I am, but several of my fingers are red and swollen with chilblains.


My symptoms were not as severe as yours. I have steadily seen improvement brought about by many different treatments, but the re-establishment of the right microbes accelerated this tremendously. You need to know that there will be symptom oscillation with certain prebiotics. I think these are symptoms, which are caused by oxidative stress and largely orchestrated by nitric oxide. The nitrate-nitrite-nitric oxide pathways can apparently be influenced very rapidly by the right organisms in the GIT.. There seems to be a bit of an adjustment period, though, when this starts to normalize. As the oxidative stress decreases more nitric oxide will become available for it's dilliatory function, but if it comes down too quickly, your symptoms may be transiently worsen as the bioavailability of nitric oxide is affected. I think this is a case of gene expression needing to catch up with the diminished peroxynitrite levels at the epithelium. At first if felt like my hands were in the freezer for most of the day, but this is one of those symptoms that has been so readily manipulated and accounts for my optimism.

 

[Asklipia]

So, personally, I wouldn't toss your Larix. It still might be worth trying a pinch of it. Seriously, you don't need much.

We take Larix, only 5 g per day and it seems to work fine.

 

[maddietod]

I remember some talk about taking probiotics with RS, because this delivers the probiotics to the gut. So I've been taking my probiotics with my potato starch.

Is there any similar best timing for fiber (I'm thinking about my flax and chia combo)? For Larch?

I'm confused because everything I google says potato starch and larch are both fibers, but potato starch contains no fiber (on the label).

 

[Ripley]

I remember some talk about taking probiotics with RS, because this delivers the probiotics to the gut. So I've been taking my probiotics with my potato starch.

Is there any similar best timing for fiber (I'm thinking about my flax and chia combo)? For Larch?

I'm confused because everything I google says potato starch and larch are both fibers, but potato starch contains no fiber (on the label).

They are assuming you are going to cook PS. So that's why there is no fiber on the label. Nobody in their right mind would eat it raw, right?

If you're curious, it has to do with international definitions of "fiber". We, here, think of fiber as anything that feeds gut bugs. But, governments don't think of it that way. They have distinct definitions that are decided by bureaucrats who represent certain industries and health officials who don't want the maltodextrin (a polysaccharide) in a candy bars to show up as "fiber" on the label (and thus giving the false impression of a candy bar being a conventional fiber-rich food), even though it is technically a polysaccharide and resists digestion, to feed gut bugs. Since almost all PS is consumed cooked, they don't consider it to be fiber in the context of a cooked meal.

Although, interestingly, as much as 20% of the starches or carbs in a meal escapes digestion, even if there's little to no RS in that meal. So, as long as you're eating carbs, your gut bugs still get a snack. So, one way or another, low carbers have to make up for that absence of fiber if they want to be on par with the SAD in terms of feeding their flora.

 

[Ripley]

Interestingly, there is a company that specializes in Larch for animals, in a wide molecular weight spectrum (MW 10,000-120,000). Supposedly it can help target a wide range of issues for them.

http://www.immuneone.com/

And apparently humans have taken the product. You can get a terrific deal if you ever need it in bulk (for you or your horse).

 

[Sasha]

, I have found that taking breaks from the PS and the probiotics is very helpful.

Thanks for that very interesting summary. Just wondering in what way you've found it helpful to take breaks from the PS and probiotics?

 

[Ripley]

Hmm... I'm seeing a different description here on the molecular weights of LAG:

Pharmaceutical-grade larch arabinogalactan is a fine, dry, off-white powder with a slightly sweet taste and mild pine-like odor. It dissolves completely in water or juice, is low in viscosity and therefore easy to administer, even to children. It is composed of galactose and arabinose molecules in a 6:1 ratio, with a small amount of glucuronic acid. Arabinogalactans are long, densely branched polysaccharides of varying molecular weights (10,000-120,000). Lower molecular weight polysaccharides typically exhibit an anti-inflammatory, anti-complement, antiallergy effect, while those of higher weights stimulate natural killer (NK) cell cytotoxicity and reticuloendothelial cells. In the case of larch arabinogalactan, molecular weights of the two major fractions are 16,000 and 100,000, perhaps accounting for its wide range of therapeutic properties.[2] [LINK]

[2] D’Adamo P. Larch arabinogalactan. J Naturopath Med 1996;6:33-37.

It is possible that the multiplicity of biologic actions in those medicinaatieants known to contain polysaccharides result from a series of "ranges" in which certain size polysaccharides produce either immune augmentation or inhibition.

In general, it may be said that "low" molecular weight polysaccharides (5,000-15,000) tend to produce more of an anti-inflammatory, anti-complementary, antiallergy effect; whereas "high" molecular weight polysaccharides (75,000-125,000) produce more reticuloendothelial stimulation and monocyte-enhanced natural killer cytotoxicity. The "mid" weight polysaccharides (15,000-50,000) seem to act in an altogether different way, enhancing carbon and other types of toxin clearance by macrophages. The molecular weights of the major fractions of larch arabinogalactan are 16,000 (low/ mid) and .100,000 (high) which perhaps explain its peculiarly diverse actions.[LINK]

That seems to go against what is mentioned in this paper. Hmm... @Gestalt @Vegas any ideas?

 

[maddietod]

And my Larix has molecular weights of 16,000 and 100,000, just like your two examples. I have been wondering why it's considered a high molecular weight form of larch.

 

[Ripley]

And my Larix has molecular weights of 16,000 and 100,000, just like your two examples. I have been wondering why it's considered a high molecular weight form of larch.

When I said that, I was going off a different description. Obviously, I don't have the bottle in front of me, so I was going off of this description, which said: "Larix™ contains the long branched polysaccharide arabinogalactan (molecular weights of 50,000 to 100,000 composed of galactose and arabinose units in a 6:1 ratio) with a trace of uronic acid, from the Western Larch (Larix occidentalis) tree"

That sounded pretty high to me, but I had no way to confirm if it was an error or not.

 

[adreno]

That seems to go against what is mentioned in this paper. Hmm...

I don't think the information in that paper is correct. Here it's stated that ImmunEnhancer has a weight of 15,000-60,000 daltons:
http://bio.lonza.com/uploads/tx_mwaxmarketingmaterial/Lonza_ProductDataSheets_ImmunEnhancer_PDS.pdf

And here it's stated that Resistaid is also 15,000-60,000 daltons:
http://bio.lonza.com/uploads/tx_mwaxmarketingmaterial/Lonza_ProductDataSheets_Resistaid_PDS.pdf

 

[adreno]

Apparently, to shed some light on the confusion, Fiberaid and ImmunEnhancer were originally products developed by Larex, and was then bought by Lonza, now marketed as Fiberaid and Resistaid.

So it looks like ImmunEnhancer and Resistaid are the same product, 15,000-60,000 daltons. I can't find any datasheet on Fiberaid, but here it's stated that it's "about 20,000 daltons":
http://newhope360.com/supply-news-a...ct-innovation-award-prebiotics-goes-larex-inc

 

[Asklipia]

The best results are coming from about 50 mg of chitin-glucan 3 x's a day.

Thank you for this. Is this the product you are using?

 

[Asklipia]

Does anyone know the molecular weight for this product (Vital Nutrients)? I don't find the information.

 

[ariel]

Thanks Adreno, I'd missed the Food Science one.

And thank you Vegas, that explains why my chilblains are so bad at the moment. I've been surprised as my hands are a bit of a mess and it isn't even really winter yet. So knowing that things might get temporarily worse first helps.
By the way you mentioned that your daughter is happily chatting again after a vaccine - how wonderful.

And Riley the info re the Larch AG is great. A super interesting substance.


To try and match the info to specific products:

- "Low" molecular weight polysaccharides (5,000 - 15,000) Anti-inflammatory, anti-complementary, antiallergy effect
- "High" molecular weight polysaccharides (75,000 - 125,000). Produces more reticuloendothelial stimulation and monocyte-enhanced natural killer (nk) cytotoxicity
- "Mid-weight" (15 - 50,000). Enhances carbon and other types of toxin clearance by macrophages

Low/mid and high (16,000 & 100,000) - Larix
Mid (15,000 - 60,000) - Arabinex, ResistAid, ImmunEnhancer, Food Science Vermont.
Mid (limited) (20-22,000) - Swanson's Fiber Aid



NB. In the website Riley linked to, it states: Larch arabinogalactan is an excellent source of dietary fiber that is able to increase short-chain fatty acid production (primarily butyrate) via its vigorous fermentation by intestinal microflora. It is well documented that butyrate is essential for proper colon health as it is the preferred substrate for energy generation by colonic epithelial cells. Butyrate also acts as a protectant for the intestinal mucosa against disease and cancer-promoting agents. Arabinogalactan added to human fecal homogenates has also been shown to decrease ammonia generation, and therefore may be of clinical value in the treatment of portal-systemic encephalopathy, a disease characterized by ammonia build-up in the liver. Larch arabinogalactan given to human subjects increased levels of beneficial intestinal anaerobes, particularly Bifidobacterium longum, via their fermentation specificity for arabinogalactan compared to other complex carbohydrates.
Because of its ability to increase colonic butyrate and decrease colonic ammonia concentrations, arabinogalactan may be THE preferable form of fiber therapy.

Also: A number of chronic diseases are characterized by decreased NK cell activity, including chronic fatigue syndrome, viral hepatitis, HIV/AIDS, and autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis. Stimulation of NK cell activity by larch arabinogalactan has been associated with recovery in certain cases of chronic fatigue syndrome. Viral hepatitis (hepatitis B and C) is also characterized by a decrease in NK cell cytotoxicity and therefore these patients may benefit from its stimulation by larch arabinogalactan.

Apologies if any of this is a repeat of already cited material.

 

[ariel]

I've been trying to get my head around different bacteria strains a little more as I want to make sure my gut is populated with a range of bacteria. There was some talk earlier in this thread about how B Infantis is good because it stimulates serotonin. And how generally the Bifidobacterium are good to take because of their presence in breast milk -- I think that is the general drift of it.
But then Sidereal linked to this study which showed that the Hadza don't have any Bifido in them at all. (The Hadza are in Tanzania and consume a lot of baobab, tubers and honey.)

"The absence of Actinobacteria, particularly Bifidobacterium, in the Hadza GM is unexpected. Bifidobacteria are associated with breastfeeding in infants and achieve large proportions of the GM in the first few months after birth37. Typically, in adults, bifidobacteria commonly make up 1–10% of the GM population. Complete absence of bifidobacteria, as observed in the Hadza, has never to our knowledge been reported for any other human group. We hypothesize that the lack of bifidobacteria in adult Hadza is a consequence of the post-weaning GM composition in the absence of agro-pastoral-derived foods. Support for this hypothesis comes from the observation that other populations in which meat and/or dairy consumption is low to absent, such as vegans and Koreans, also have very low representation of Actinobacteria and Bifidobacterium38, 39. The continued consumption of dairy into adulthood could be one reason most western populations maintain a relatively large bifidobacterial presence."

"Future work must focus on the GM of breast-fed Hadza infants to determine the role of bifidobacteria in the kinetics of assembly and development of the Hadza GM, and to learn whether this bacterial group is completely absent in all Hadza, including infants, or whether it is definitively lost from the gut ecosystem post weaning. It is important to note that while bifidobacteria are considered a beneficial bacterial group in western GM profiles, their absence in the Hadza GM, combined with the alternative enrichment in ‘opportunistic’ bacteria from Proteobacteria and Spirochaetes, cannot be considered aberrant. On the contrary, the Hadza GM probably represents a new equilibrium that is beneficial and symbiotic to the Hadza living environment. Support for the advantage of such novel GM configurations comes from the finding that GM restructuring also occurs in centenarians43, who are extreme examples of organismal robusticity. In addition, these findings illustrate a need to reevaluate the standards by which we consider GM ‘healthy’ or ‘unhealthy’, as they are clearly context dependent."
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140415/ncomms4654/full/ncomms4654.html

Anyway, it is all fascinating, I'm particularly intrigued in how different bacteria in your gut might effect one's personality as has been suggested.

 

[Asklipia]

Update on the dreaded fava beans salad.
We just had one yesterday (made with frozen beans). There was a definite effect again, lots of pimples in weird places (top of the ears, over the sacrum, under arms, between toes).
It was not at uncomfortable this time. There is obviously less of IT around.

Now I understand why traditionally in the Middle East there is a day of the week when one has to eat beans.
Good luck to all.

 

[Christopher]

I've been using about a half a gram of Source Natural twice a day. Breaking the tab in thirds. I have no idea how this compares to the other products, but I suspect the higher molecular weight products could be more problematic...more risk, more reward. They may more closely hit the target based upon the responses I observed.

The best results are coming from about 50 mg of chitin-glucan 3 x's a day.

@Vegas, is the chitin glucan you're trying Artinia, and is that different from Jarrow's NAG?

 

[adreno]

So I got some shark cartilage. @Vegas , what is a good dose? The caps are 750mg, and the bottle recommends 6 caps, which sounds a little excessive. I'm starting with 1 cap.