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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
And Riley the info re the Larch AG is great. A super interesting substance.


To try and match the info to specific products:

- "Low" molecular weight polysaccharides (5,000 - 15,000) Anti-inflammatory, anti-complementary, antiallergy effect
- "High" molecular weight polysaccharides (75,000 - 125,000). Produces more reticuloendothelial stimulation and monocyte-enhanced natural killer (nk) cytotoxicity
- "Mid-weight" (15 - 50,000). Enhances carbon and other types of toxin clearance by macrophages

Low/mid and high (16,000 & 100,000) - Larix
Mid (15,000 - 60,000) - Arabinex, ResistAid, ImmunEnhancer, Food Science Vermont.
Mid (limited) (20-22,000) - Swanson's Fiber Aid



NB. In the website Riley linked to, it states: Larch arabinogalactan is an excellent source of dietary fiber that is able to increase short-chain fatty acid production (primarily butyrate) via its vigorous fermentation by intestinal microflora. It is well documented that butyrate is essential for proper colon health as it is the preferred substrate for energy generation by colonic epithelial cells. Butyrate also acts as a protectant for the intestinal mucosa against disease and cancer-promoting agents. Arabinogalactan added to human fecal homogenates has also been shown to decrease ammonia generation, and therefore may be of clinical value in the treatment of portal-systemic encephalopathy, a disease characterized by ammonia build-up in the liver. Larch arabinogalactan given to human subjects increased levels of beneficial intestinal anaerobes, particularly Bifidobacterium longum, via their fermentation specificity for arabinogalactan compared to other complex carbohydrates.
Because of its ability to increase colonic butyrate and decrease colonic ammonia concentrations, arabinogalactan may be THE preferable form of fiber therapy.

Also: A number of chronic diseases are characterized by decreased NK cell activity, including chronic fatigue syndrome, viral hepatitis, HIV/AIDS, and autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis. Stimulation of NK cell activity by larch arabinogalactan has been associated with recovery in certain cases of chronic fatigue syndrome. Viral hepatitis (hepatitis B and C) is also characterized by a decrease in NK cell cytotoxicity and therefore these patients may benefit from its stimulation by larch arabinogalactan.

Just looking into what brands/types of LAG people are using to see what I should try. From the above very informative post by ariel, it looks as though I ought to be giving Larix a go, but there seem to be several products called Larix, including one by Jarrow, another by Eclectic Institute, etc.

Has anyone been trying these high-weight ones? If so, which?
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
Hi,

I'm filling out the CRON-O-meter every day. I only had breakfast but am already over my fats limit.
Any comment on this? I don't have my PHD book yet. I plan to read this whole thread soon.
I've probably been over doing fats for quite a while - mostly coconut oil, coconut, butter, and EVOO, sardines, grass fed beef, full fat yogurt, full fat raw milk cheese, and olives.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd...._=1420155534_b242f965067d1f666eeb1cdc31eeea19

Something looks off there. I calculate about 1330 calories/day with your macronutrient targets.

My targets are set for PHD 30% carb, 50% fat, 20% protein. My total calorie goal is just a tad higher than yours at 2269, but the individual macronutrients are way higher. Protein 113g, carb 170g, fat 126g.
 
Messages
36
Location
Tennessee USA
Hmmm. Maybe I didn't enter the right data before adding my foods.
Seems like I told it I'm 165, 5'11" and age 63.

Sometimes you just have to go by how you feel. Eating according to what a website tells you to eat can be problematic. My gut needs some healing. I do not handle carbs like rice or potato well at this time.
ALA chelation and Lauricidin have made a mess of my GI tract and I need to build up my flora for a while.
 
Messages
36
Location
Tennessee USA
It says my target calories are 2138 Kcal.

130 grams carb
65 grams fat
56 grams of protein

I'm not sure what % those are. I assume the same ratios as yours.

Woops, I didn't have the PHD ratios entered in it. I just changed them to 30, 20 and 50 and now it says I need
107 Gms of protein daily,
160 Gms of carb
118 Gms of fat.

There's no way I can reach that much carb at this time, but I should be able to after a while.
This is s surprise for me. I was thinking I only needed two protein meals a day, but I actually need 3, like I have been eating for years.
 
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Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
Just looking into what brands/types of LAG people are using to see what I should try. From the above very informative post by ariel, it looks as though I ought to be giving Larix a go, but there seem to be several products called Larix, including one by Jarrow, another by Eclectic Institute, etc.

Has anyone been trying these high-weight ones? If so, which?
Hi @Sasha
Yes this was a very informative post, thanks again to @ariel for this and to you for reposting it!
We have been using several of those. Only in powder form.
From what I understand Larex developed ResistAid and FiberAid and sold them to Lonza.

- Low/mid and high (16,000 & 100,000) - Larix
The Larix by Eclectic Institute, which I think had the most dramatic effects in raising immunity/getting rid of nasties. Now this spectacular efficiency might have been due to the fact that this was the first batch we used. The comparison is difficult because I suppose as time passes by our situation is changing.
I would like to note that when we bought some in April 2014 it was advertised at (16,000 & 100,000). Now I saw yesterday on VitaminLife that it was advertised at (50.000 & 100.000). I tried to find out more about the change but could not. Did they change their formulation? I noticed it is getting difficult to source.
I note that it is made from Western Larch (Larix Occidentalis).

- Mid (15,000 - 60,000) - Arabinex, ResistAid, ImmunEnhancer, Food Science Vermont. All different names for ResistAid it seems.
We have been using Food Science Vermont and it seemed a bit easier to tolerate, maybe as I said because we had been using Larix before? I have ordered some Larix two months ago to find out if this was true but have not received it yet. Two providers were unable to send it, one after the other, which explains the delay and why I noticed Larix is getting difficult to find.
ResistAid is made from Eastern Larch (Larix Laricina).

- Mid (limited) (20-22,000) - Swanson's FiberAid. 'Swanson's or not, this is sold under different names). We have not used any of this yet. It could be a by-product of ResistAid manufacture. Cheaper than the others.

After some Larix and Food Science Vermont, we used a big pot of "Vital Nutrients" with good results (could talerate more than the Larix, maybe because we had been using other LAG before. I have been unable to find out the molecular weight of this. I tried emailing them but got no reply. Maybe someone here could help? I notice that on the label it says "Eastern Larch Heartwood" (as in ResistAid, this is Larix Laricina, but Heartwood - don't know if ResistAid is made from bark). I thought LAG was sourced from the bark? Maybe there is here a little secret which would be very interesting for us? Is this Vital Nutrients just sawdust?

I am left with three main questions :
- Larix by Eclectic Institute seems the only brand with very low and high molecular weight. I suppose it is different from the two products by Lonza (ResistAid and FiberAid, each sold under different names as well).
Is Larix now only high molecular weight? And why? On their website it still says 16.000 and 100.000.
- What exactly is Vital Nutrients arabinogalactan in molecular weight?

Any answer would be appreciated!
All in all we find LAG an excellent addition to our breakfast.

After looking for more answers I came upon this, which I would have like to reproduce here but do not know how to :
http://www.fda.gov/ucm/groups/fdagov-public/@fdagov-foods-gen/documents/document/ucm266729.pdf Extremely interesting but I have no time now to summarize it, maybe someone else could comment?
Be well!:)
Asklipia

PS : if Larch arabinogalactan is just glorified sawdust, it has been added to bread for ages!!! And I thought this was a bad idea, defrauding the consumer of desirable gluten… Maybe it was a good idea after all.
A lot of plywood in Russia is made from larch. I wonder.
 
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Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
@Asklipia - thanks very much indeed for such an informative reply. You've really done your research there! I agree it's a pity that the companies aren't providing the data on the molecular weights as standard. It makes it hard to compare products.

I'll send off for the Eclectic stuff, I think - the high-weight version seems a good place to start. I'm glad you had such good results with it.

Did you post about your early experience with it? If so, I'll do some digging (long thread!). I'm wondering what to expect. I'm intending to work up very slowly!
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
PS : if Larch arabinogalactan is just glorified sawdust, it has been added to bread for ages!!! And I thought this was a bad idea, defrauding the consumer of desirable gluten… Maybe it was a good idea after all.
A lot of plywood in Russia is made from larch. I wonder.

I've just been reading Tim "tatertot" Steele's new blog. On the subject of sawdust, take a look at the section entitled "The fiber conspiracy" here:

http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.co.uk/p/dietary-fiber-info.html
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
@Asklipia
Did you post about your early experience with the Eclectic stuff? If so, I'll do some digging (long thread!). I'm wondering what to expect. I'm intending to work up very slowly!
I did not post. Many things were happening. I think Larix was very useful. I have a small chemist's measure set of stainless steel spoons a bit like that : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lacor-67001..._sbs_kh_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1QHBBMQ4BGKJNE4H79XB
Mine are 1 ml, 2.5 ml, 5 ml, 15 ml.
I started in April with 1 ml every three days, then after a couple of weeks 2.5 ml every five days etc…
Now at the beginning of September we are at 5 ml nearly every day.
Please note that we are also taking other powders at the same time : PS (not more than once a week), inulin/FOS (every day), mung starch (this is nearly as powerful as PS but different - we only take it on alternate days, and if we are eating mung starch noodles on that day we do not take it.), amla or baobab fruit powder, a handful of plantain dried, and every day a handful of roasted chickpeas (stragali) and a handful of dried mushrooms (at the moment this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleurotus).

I cannot describe what is happening physically, because I did not feel sick at all when we started, in fact I thought we were cured. Apart from occasional difficult times with irritation due to die off, LPS etc.

All the time we have been taking probiotics : favourites are VSL#3, AOR Probiotics3, Lactobacillus plantarum 299v.
On top of home made yogurt/kefir and playing with cats and dogs and swimming in dirty water.
However I notice something now, after a few months of all of this : I feel like my old self when I was a child. That is, in my mind things are happening, a fearless amused awareness.
Ha!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Just what the doctor ordered.
Be well!
:balloons::hug::balloons:
Asklipia
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I did not post. Many things were happening. I think Larix was very useful. I have a small chemist's measure set of stainless steel spoons a bit like that : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lacor-67001..._sbs_kh_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1QHBBMQ4BGKJNE4H79XB
Mine are 1 ml, 2.5 ml, 5 ml, 15 ml.
I started in April with 1 ml every three days, then after a couple of weeks 2.5 ml every five days etc…
Now at the beginning of September we are at 5 ml nearly every day.

Thanks - I've got some spoons like that and also use them to split doses. I've just ordered the Eclectic Institute Larix and that seems to be tablets - but I can always chop them up.


Please note that we are also taking other powders at the same time : PS (not more than once a week), inulin/FOS (every day), mung starch (this is nearly as powerful as PS but different - we only take it on alternate days, and if we are eating mung starch noodles on that day we do not take it.), amla or baobab fruit powder, a handful of plantain dried, and every day a handful of roasted chickpeas (stragali) and a handful of dried mushrooms (at the moment this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleurotus).

I cannot describe what is happening physically, because I did not feel sick at all when we started, in fact I thought we were cured. Apart from occasional difficult times with irritation due to die off, LPS etc.

All the time we have been taking probiotics : favourites are VSL#3, AOR Probiotics3, Lactobacillus plantarum 299v.
On top of home made yogurt/kefir and playing with cats and dogs and swimming in dirty water.

That's an amazing mix of stuff you're taking! I think I'm going to have to build up very slowly, one thing at a time.


However I notice something now, after a few months of all of this : I feel like my old self when I was a child. That is, in my mind things are happening, a fearless amused awareness.
Ha!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Just what the doctor ordered.

That's terrific - congratulations! Something to aim for. :)
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Something looks off there. I calculate about 1330 calories/day with your macronutrient targets.

My targets are set for PHD 30% carb, 50% fat, 20% protein. My total calorie goal is just a tad higher than yours at 2269, but the individual macronutrients are way higher. Protein 113g, carb 170g, fat 126g.

I eat 2150 cal/day, 137 car (25%), 96 % protein (18%), 136 g fat (57%). May intention is to work to 30% carbs. dmholmes, Jaminet counts for carb calories only carbs from safe starches, but not from vegetables or berries. Did you count your carbs the same way?
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
For those, who are interested in the question, which carb calories Count for PHD, is the answer here:

http://paleohacks.com/ketosis/shoul...lth-diet-when-calculating-carb-calories-13753

Paul Jaminet:"It takes about 40 calories of glucose to digest a pound of vegetables. Leaf vegetables have less than that and so are negative contributors to glucose balance. But most squashes, root vegetables, etc have more than that, often around 80 calories per pound. Carrots are around 200 calories per pound, beets even higher. Potatoes closer to 400.
So, a simple way would be to subtract 40 calories per pound from everything. Another way is just to ignore most vegetables that are not “safe starches,” tubers, corms, sugary vegetables, fruits, or berries"
you can find the question & answer here:http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=5528#comment-54224
& Darrin added his interpretation of Paul's answer further down the post here:http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=5528#comment-54384
Darrin:"Paul sums it up by suggesting 2 options for counting carbohydrate calories in veggies & fruits. I have slightly re-worded that hopefully makes it clearer;
Either;
1. subtract 40 calories (or 10 grams) per pound (450 grams) from everything.
OR,
2. ignore vegetables that areNOTtubers, corms, sugary vegetables, fruits, berries or safe-starches.
So in your examples, you can ignore leafy greens. But count Carrot (sugary vegetable) & count Tomato (fruit). Onions look to have similar sugar & cals to carrots (sugary vegetable), so you can probably count them as well if you eat a lot. & of course count the yams (tuber) & potatoes (tuber)"​
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
I eat 2150 cal/day, 137 car (25%), 96 % protein (18%), 136 g fat (57%). May intention is to work to 30% carbs. dmholmes, Jaminet counts for carb calories only carbs from safe starches, but not from vegetables or berries. Did you count your carbs the same way?

Yep, but I'd count berries even though they are low in carb/sugar.

I should say that I don't make it a habit to count, once you know the carb count for the safe starches you eat it's pretty routine. For me white rice (~ 50 grams per cooked cup) is my most frequent safe starch.
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Yep, but I'd count berries even though they are low in carb/sugar.

I should say that I don't make it a habit to count, once you know the carb count for the safe starches you eat it's pretty routine. For me white rice (~ 50 grams per cooked cup) is my most frequent safe starch.

Yes, but at the beginning of PHD I count to get a feeling for the right amounts of carbs/proteins/fats.
But PHD tastes very well, my appetite is good:) and I enjoy the meal.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Something remarkable has happened, and I think it has to be the addition of LAG. I started about mid-July, w/ my probiotics. I'm unable to use fermented food, nor other forms of RS. It seems that in this 6-8 week period something has indeed shifted. For some days now I've needed less potassium, aminos, butyrate, ox bile....and I've been feeling brighter. wow.:jaw-drop:Frankly, I'm gobsmacked! Less potassium???!!! And even a few times I've self-tested for no probiotics that day. I'm really amazed.

I've been using one of the 2 Swanson products. They seem pretty similar, I stared at the labels a long time. There was a special on, so I went with this one. I'm using 4 caps/day, (2gm total) taken w/ my probiotic and some mineral supps a couple hours after evening meal.I used to take them early AM or midday, but body is now signalling this as preferred time. Next I'm going to try the Source Naturals tab, 2g/tablet. I see today that Swanson's is also selling the Source Naturals product.
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-larch-tree-arabinogalactan-500-mg-90-caps
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/q?kw=larch

W/ my histamine issues, I've settled on 3 probiotics which I've been alternating for some months. I'm using Prescript Assist, Orthomolecular Products Ortho Biotic, and Nature's Way Reuteri pearls.

I have to add that I've also started low dose naltrexone during this period, so there could well be some dual effects. Whatever it is, feeling better and using less supps...
bouncy-953.gif
 
Messages
10
Location
Sweden
I've tried PS a few times in the last months and every time I get really gassy, which I guess happens to many. But in my case it's very foul smelling gas and I also get smelly, sticky stools. I did notice the same thing used to happen many years back when I would eat cooked and cooled potatoes/rice. Constipation is more likely overall unless I eat anything with FODMAPs or lactose. All of this is often accompanied by my usual suspects of brain fog, anxiety, hyperactivity, muscle twitches, allergy symptoms (nose and eyes), shortness of breath, frequent urination and fatigue.

Now I have suspected some sort of dysbiosis, lack of good bacteria or overgrowth of bad bacteria/yeast for a long time. This effect resistant starch has on me kind of points towards the same, no?

What would be the best plan of action here? Some sort of herbal antibiotic for a while and then probiotics before trying resistant starch again?

Also polyphenols and MSG (really all yeasts) leave me worse off with the same type of symptoms as above.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Addition to my post of yesterday: I began the new Source Naturals LAG last night. Body prefers it to the Swansons. That's my body, don't know how it will compare for anyone else, and haven't done a careful look at the labels to understand differences.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Addition to my post of yesterday: I began the new Source Naturals LAG last night. Body prefers it to the Swansons. That's my body, don't know how it will compare for anyone else, and haven't done a careful look at the labels to understand differences.

Is that Source Naturals Wellness Larch Extract?