The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[ariel]

Thank you Asklipia!

Actually I spent the weekend reading bits of the MK4/MK7 thread too. Your experiences are super interesting.
I am going to order some MK4 as well, though it is exciting that the starch helps the body to produce/convert K2.

The EM is supposedly extremely popular in Japan. They put it in lots of different products.
I love that I can clean my house with something that I can also drink for my gut.

 

[Asklipia]

Actually I spent the weekend reading bits of the MK4/MK7 thread too. Your experiences are super interesting.
I am going to order some MK4 as well, though it is exciting that the starch helps the body to produce/convert K2.
The EM is supposedly extremely popular in Japan. They put it in lots of different products.

I suspect that one of the roots of the problem has been supplementation in folic acid and MSG. The Japanese have had MSG for a long long time and had it tested on their army. It is the daughter of a Japanese high rank that married a Thai chemist that brought out the recipe for an antidote : Kratham Daeng, that is Red Bull, that includes Taurine and Caffeine.
There is no way to stop people using MSG, Singapore tried to ban it for many years with no real results. The Japanese generalized the use of natto, which was before only used in a small area. They have all kinds of ways to mitigate the bad effects. This EM might be one of them!
Be well!

 

[ariel]

Interesting Asklipia. Yes, it may well be one of their secret weapons.

By the way re acacia, 'Wilbur' on Mr Heisenbug's blog wrote that it was one of several starches that he uses.
He has really diversified his sources.
"My main ones are: inulin, potato starch, ground flaxseed, glucomannan, FOS, yacon root powder, amla powder, baobab powder, and arabinogalactan. These are the ones I take every day. I sometimes add acacia powder, psyllium husk (not often), Cocoa nib, dandelion root, or chicory, the last two in coffee or tea."
https://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/why-resistant-starch-is-probably-not-enough/

 

[MeSci]

I've taken a few basic points from this thread and my own experience, and also other threads on broadly the same subject, and maybe a short summary will help others with ME/CFS.

1. If you have a high-grain and/or high/sugar diet, it may help to reduce these - slowly to be on the safe side.
2. Make sure that you have an adequate intake of vegetables, and a small amount of fruit. High fruit intake seems to have an adverse effect on some. I try not to exceed two apples a day.
3. You might want to try eliminating gluten and/or dairy products, as many people cannot tolerate these, and studies have shown that cutting them out helps to heal the gut.
4. It may also help to take gut-healing supplements such as glutamine and zinc.

Keep a health diary to monitor your progress. Diet alone can change the gut flora, and may be sufficient for some.

I think that this slow method can avoid the adverse reactions that many get when just taking resistant starch. I didn't have any worsening of symptoms apart from increased flatulence for a few weeks or months, and have had many improvements over the two years I have been following this routine.

 

[Ripley]

I notice that this RS + probiotics experiment makes me feel more emotions. I would no say that I am more emotive in the sense more easily destabilized by sudden emotions, it makes me feel my emotions very strongly and deeply and more often. I am bowled over by gratitude to you all at the moment.

That's interesting you mention that. Twice over the past year I went to see a movie and I actually felt panicky from the conflict and action sequences in the movie. I get out of the theater and felt fine. Weird. Never had that happen to me before this past year. And they were movies I didn't want an emotional connection to (Spiderman and Gravity).

 

[Ripley]

1. If you have a high-grain and/or high/sugar diet, it may help to reduce these - slowly to be on the safe side.
2. Make sure that you have an adequate intake of vegetables, and a small amount of fruit. High fruit intake seems to have an adverse effect on some. I try not to exceed two apples a day.
3. You might want to try eliminating gluten and/or dairy products, as many people cannot tolerate these, and studies have shown that cutting them out helps to heal the gut.
4. It may also help to take gut-healing supplements such as glutamine and zinc.

And don't forget to eat starchy carbs if tolerated (white rice, potatoes, yams, unripe bananas, beans) for improved glycosylation (maintaining your glycome) and to feed your flora. In fact, 20% of all glycemic starches supposedly escape digestion and feed gut flora — which is a major reason why very low carb diets starve flora. Cooking and cooling these starches will yield RS3. Eating them with a little fat and in the context of a meal brings the GI way down. For many people, eating these foods are more important than you might think.

 

[kraken]

I became very interested in RS and started it about 6 days ago. I'm up at 3tbsp per day now, doing mostly fine except some minor gas in the beginning but thats fine now. I've noticed the typical things people say like much better sleep and vivid dreams, the dream part is especially cool. However, last days I've been more fatigued with lack of concentration, a bit more depressed and anhedonic. Anyone else experience this from RS? Is it possible it will reverse? I feel that my anxiety is improving though.

I'm currently taking Probiotics as well (which I recently made a thread about) possibly contributing to this or even being the cause. These are the one: http://www.iherb.com/product-review...astrointestinal-health-60-capsules/20798/?p=1

Looking for some advice on what to do, drop the probiotics all together and try the RS solo instead? I'm sort of afraid I'll drop eventual progress in repopulation of good bacteria for the probiotics (which may be the reaction that makes me feel bad). Also strongly believe I have a systemic Candida infection (waiting on Berberine and Oil of oregano), would RS affect this is any way?

Sorry for possible repeating questions, but I honestly havn't had the energy to read all the posts yet

 

[Ripley]

Looking for some advice on what to do, drop the probiotics all together and try the RS solo instead? I'm sort of afraid I'll drop eventual progress in repopulation of good bacteria for the probiotics (which may be the reaction that makes me feel bad).

Probiotics are usually safe. From what others have posted, cutting back on the RS might be helpful. Maybe even stop for a day or two to let things settle in. These gut bugs need a one or two day break (or more) on occasion to get reorganized.

From what others have experienced here, if you have ME/CFS, you could get hit by massive die-off reactions if you feed the flora too quickly. So, go slowly. Maybe think in teaspoons, not tablespoons at first.

Also, I believe some people here seem to be doing well with tiny amounts of a low molecular weight (LAG) Larch Arabinogalactin (ResistAid or Thorne's Arabinex) as their main prebiotic for dealing with immune issues. Start slow on that too. The larger molecular weight (FiberAid) LAG is probably a better LAG for general gut health. Here's a layman's video of why the lower-molecular weight LAG is good for immune issues.

Also strongly believe I have a systemic Candida infection (waiting on Berberine and Oil of oregano), would RS affect this is any way?

Read @Gestalt 's excellent post on the subject.

 

[Asklipia]

A small update :
Yesterday we ate the fava bean salad again. This time I have measured the amounts. I put 180 g of beans per head, weighed after taking them out of their pods but before peeling them. So that in the future we may compare results more precisely.
This morning we have frog eyes and a burning and puffy face. My husband feels very tired but is functional. At 8 am he has already watered the garden and done some carpentry. I am not tired in the least. One pimple on my left forearm.

This is not bad compared to last time (about 10 days ago).
Whatever the fava beans are killing are reduced in numbers. Or it is getting immune to fava bean poisoning.

Of course I am not recommending this to anyone. Not only because of the danger of someone having problems with G6PD and favism as Vegas noted, but also because of the important presence in fava beans of canavanine.
Good luck to all.

 

[ariel]

Regarding the issue of what to eat. I found this useful synopsis on the Human Food Project site.

"As for diet, we are very interested in seeing you eat 30+ species of plants a week (the more the better). We will ask that you eat the “whole” whole plant. For example, no more cutting of the fibrous bottom of the asparagus shoots or broccoli. Eat the whole thing! Same goes for every other plant. We will also ask that you lots of onions, leeks, garlic and explore cooking/eating lots of new plants (there is more out there than just leafy greens). We also want you to drop 100% of anything made with a grain of any kind – that includes rice. Beans and lentils OK (sorry Paleo friendos). We will also ask that you not steam, boil, or otherwise cook your vegetables for too long. Cook a little less, so your body works a little harder. Eat all the meat you like – but we ask that you avoid any meat, poultry, fish etc that has been raised on growth hormones or antibiotics as this “may” impact your gut microbiota. We will also ask that you not drink your tap water, as the chlorine (and fluoride where added) “may” be having an impact on your gut microbiota. Rule of Thumb: If you have to ask if it’s human food, then it’s probably not."
http://humanfoodproject.com/60-day-human-food-challenge/

I always chop the fibrous bits off broccoli etc. I guess that's going to have to stop!

 

[Vegas]

I was looking for a convinient source of all of them. I found this list of sources:

http://www.glyconutrientsreference.com/whatareglyconutrients/naturalsourcesofglyconutrients/


There are also glyconutrients mixes available, such as this one:


http://www.custommedicine.com.au/shop/products/Glyconutrient-Food-Supplement-120g.html

It seems acacia gum is an excellent source of arabinogalactan and galactose, perhaps this could be substituted for the larch extract? It certainly is much cheaper.

Sorry for re-stating the obvious, but if you take the combination product you lose the ability, to the extent this is possible, to understand the effects of each. The diversity of nutrients may be fantastic, and it may prove to be more tolerable, obviously I don't know.

We can look at some of the biochemical peculiarities of ME/CFS along with the available microbiomic data and conclude that some are more important than others. I tend to believe that a few are critically important based upon the organisms that preferentially utilize some of these carbohydrates and synthesize other secondary products, which are of critical importance to immunity and cellular maintenance, BUT going "all in" could prove to be most effective. I you choose to do so, please let me know what happens.

If we consider the inherent needs of infants as a guide to what may restore immunocompetency, we may want to look at the core oligosaccharides found in breast milk. While there are hundreds of individual combinations with different isomers and structural configurations of the various oligosaccharides, those carbohydrate building blocks are (I believe) principally comprised of lactose, galactose, fucose, n-acetylglucosamine. Most of the oligosaccharides are NOT degradable by digestive enzymes, and this establishes the essential role for microbial glycosidic catabolism. Perhaps the combination of galactose, fucose, and n-acetylglucosamine is of particular importance. I am also intrigued by n-acetylgalactosamine, and the idea of providing a more "adult-centric" prebiotic that may contribute to supporting the nitrogen metabolism.

As to your question about acacia gum vs. larch extract, I think these will promote different effects because these are structurally distinct despite having the same carbohydrate moieties. The effects in humans are in part attributable to the depolymerization of the arabinogalactan fraction and the preferential microbial ability to do so, not to mention it contains a host of other compounds. This could be better for your biology, I'm simply stating that it is chemically dissimilar and I would anticipate that its effects are not going to be equivalent.

Right now I am looking at five prebiotics, but I'm feeling my way through this like everyone else. Things are going very well though.

 

[Vegas]

I suspect that one of the roots of the problem has been supplementation in folic acid and MSG. The Japanese have had MSG for a long long time and had it tested on their army. It is the daughter of a Japanese high rank that married a Thai chemist that brought out the recipe for an antidote : Kratham Daeng, that is Red Bull, that includes Taurine and Caffeine.
There is no way to stop people using MSG, Singapore tried to ban it for many years with no real results. The Japanese generalized the use of natto, which was before only used in a small area. They have all kinds of ways to mitigate the bad effects. This EM might be one of them!
Be well!

And the B. Subtilis in natto has the inherent ability to positively influence the human glutamate metabolism, provided you can handle the smell/taste. I do wonder if it would be anxiolytic for those with elevated lactate and anxiety issues.

 

[Asklipia]

I am so happy things are going well for you @Vegas!
I have just found out that some mushrooms I am using often in my soups are 10% fucose.
These are very reasonably priced and I find them dried easily :
auricularia.

 

[Vegas]

Also, I believe some people here seem to be doing well with tiny amounts of a low molecular weight (LAG) Larch Arabinogalactin (ResistAid or Thorne's Arabinex) as their main prebiotic for dealing with immune issues. Start slow on that too. The larger molecular weight (FiberAid) LAG is probably a better LAG for general gut health. Here's a layman's video of why the lower-molecular weight LAG is good for immune issues.
Read @Gestalt 's excellent post on the subject.

Do tell. What is the molecular weight described for these individual products, if you know?

I think the Fiber Aid is distinctly more "potent" than other products i have used.

 

[Vegas]

I am so happy things are going well for you @Vegas!
I have just found out that some mushrooms I am using often in my soups are 10% fucose.
These are very reasonably priced and I find them dried easily :
auricularia.

Yes, thanks, I seem to be getting closer to the right combination and amounts. The inflammation is declining, and the energy levels are starting to come up. I am surprised that the prebiotics have led to a stunningly effective treatment of my airborne allergies. Well not that this happened, but it happened over night.

 

[Ripley]

Do tell. What is the molecular weight described for these individual products, if you know?

I think the Fiber Aid is distinctly more "potent" than other products i have used.

Interesting.

I was going off of this exchange from @Gestalt and @adreno , from earlier in the thread.

@Gestalt referred to this: http://www.nutritioninnovation.com/agpaper.pdf

I believe ResistAid (Arabinex) is 15,000 to 60,000 Daltons, according to @Asklipia 's comment here.

 

[Asklipia]

There is this post by Duck Dodgers on Freetheanimal discussing ResistAid versus FiberAid. It also mentions Larix which I am taking.

 

[adreno]

There is this post by Duck Dodgers on Freetheanimal discussing ResistAid versus FiberAid.

Wrong link.

 

[Asklipia]

Wrong link.

Fixed thanks.

 

[adreno]

It is still not clear which is favorable though, but isn't the prebiotic effect (fiberaid) what we are primarily after here, rather than direct immune stimulation (resistaid)? By taking care of the gut bugs, we will slowly increase the immune response anyway, but perhaps without causing too much inflammation in the process?