The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Vegas]

Well, I had head symptoms big-time, that's for sure!

Good thing? Bad thing?

Either way, I daren't take any more for now. Got a mega-crop of cold sores that started a few days ago and wondering if that's a knock-on effect.

Sorry, I intended to say more, but I had to take my boys to school.

I think this is a good thing, provided this explains what happened in your situation. Are you sure they were sinus headaches?

There are number of distinct, recurrent headaches I have experienced over the years. One of the worst and most persistent is the variety wherein the superior orbital rim is also exquisitely tender (across the inferior aspect of the frontal bone/eye brow). There is also a headache that is more central, over the frontal bone. The former, I believe, is associated with H2S, as this variety is amplified by intake of most sulfur compounds. The latter is generally more mild, and I believe is associated with LPS. This type, however, can be combined with flu-like or cytokine symptoms. When LPS is administered to humans in minute quantities, such symptoms are prominently observed.

Of course H2S and LPS simultaneously occur, and with evidence that H2S dampens the immune response precipitated by LPS, I suspect this inhibited inflammatory response represents an evolutionary adaptation. In my opinion the severe headaches are generally produced by circulating toxins, this has occurred very often with liver detoxification efforts. In the context of displacing bacterial pathogens, I think gaseous hydrogen sulfide that accumulates in the blood after sulfur/sulfate reducing bacteria cell walls are breached and/or lipopolysaccharide may account for some headaches, but I'm just speculating.

Your headaches might be related to something different. From my early experiences with immunomodulating agents, I experienced some unusual head pain, which I would argue was not caused by circulating toxins, but produced by the immunostimulatory effects acting upon pathogens in the head and neck, where the vascular supply and immune response is very brisk. This, I think could be described as a sinus headache, but I seem to recall pain throughout the head in places where sinus cavities do not exist. For me though, I think these were generally accompanied by lymphatic soreness in the head and neck, although I don't recall for sure.

The cold sores are clearly a sign of enhanced immunocompetency. I think I first started experiencing these about three years ago, and they would episodically re-occur for about two years. I had never had a cold sore, until this time. In the past year, this has been replaced by apthous stomatitis, which is more of a T-cell phenomenon. I welcome these, because they seemingly represent steps in the restoration of an appropriate and effective immune response.

You may want to palpate your lymph nodes, particularly the occipital, cervical and submandibular nodes to see if you have any soreness there.

 

[xjhuez]

Gut microbiota–generated metabolites in animal health and disease


I did not pay for the full article, but posting here in case somebody wants to.

 

[Sasha]

Sorry, I intended to say more, but I had to take my boys to school.

Thanks very much indeed for the detailed reply - I'm not sure I'm about to do it justice but here goes...

I think this is a good thing, provided this explains what happened in your situation. Are you sure they were sinus headaches?

It's the positioning that makes me think they're sinus headaches and the fact that my GP confirmed them as sinus headaches when I told him where they were located (which doesn't mean we can't both be wrong, of course). I get pain along the line of the right eyebrow with another focus about 1.5" above the midpoint of the eyebrow, plus under both eyes. Even when I don't have a headache, I've usually got discomfort under the eyes. The pain looks like a sinus diagram, pretty much. I've had them even during a long remission (of several years) from my ME though I don't recall them being this frequent or severe.

The cold sores are clearly a sign of enhanced immunocompetency.

That's surprising! I thought it was a sign that my immune system was even more stuffed than usual and was failing to suppress the herpes virus. I've had cold sores since I was a teenager every now and then. I haven't had any for quite a stretch now, though - maybe a year. And I'm not used to having so many try to break out at once. Can you explain why it shows a better immune response, if you have time?

You may want to palpate your lymph nodes, particularly the occipital, cervical and submandibular nodes to see if you have any soreness there.

Thanks for the diagram! I just watched a doctor on Youtube prodding various nodes and I'm not quite sure which nodes it was but when I had the sore, raw mouth I had swollen, painful nodes at the base of my tongue on both sides - I thought I'd maybe got blocked saliva ducts because of the location of the pain but my saliva flow was fine. Not sure if that was the submandibular nodes.

So it sounds as though you consider this maybe a step forward? I'm wondering if I should resume the Prescript Assist but at a lower dose and not every day. I'd had three days at 1/3 capsule and had had 2/3 capsule on the day that problems started.

 

[Sasha]

This morning I started Lipsomal Vitamin C, which I thought my body would find uncontroversial and within a couple of hours of the first 1g dose, had a brand new sinus headache and now the inside of my mouth is going raw again and one of those nodes is hurting. I'm starting to wonder if my body is going to do this every time I do something useful.

Weird! I don't recall having this 'sore mouth' thing before.

 

[Vegas]

Thanks very much indeed for the detailed reply - I'm not sure I'm about to do it justice but here goes...



It's the positioning that makes me think they're sinus headaches and the fact that my GP confirmed them as sinus headaches when I told him where they were located (which doesn't mean we can't both be wrong, of course). I get pain along the line of the right eyebrow with another focus about 1.5" above the midpoint of the eyebrow, plus under both eyes. Even when I don't have a headache, I've usually got discomfort under the eyes. The pain looks like a sinus diagram, pretty much. I've had them even during a long remission (of several years) from my ME though I don't recall them being this frequent or severe.



That's surprising! I thought it was a sign that my immune system was even more stuffed than usual and was failing to suppress the herpes virus. I've had cold sores since I was a teenager every now and then. I haven't had any for quite a stretch now, though - maybe a year. And I'm not used to having so many try to break out at once. Can you explain why it shows a better immune response, if you have time?



Thanks for the diagram! I just watched a doctor on Youtube prodding various nodes and I'm not quite sure which nodes it was but when I had the sore, raw mouth I had swollen, painful nodes at the base of my tongue on both sides - I thought I'd maybe got blocked saliva ducts because of the location of the pain but my saliva flow was fine. Not sure if that was the submandibular nodes.

So it sounds as though you consider this maybe a step forward? I'm wondering if I should resume the Prescript Assist but at a lower dose and not every day. I'd had three days at 1/3 capsule and had had 2/3 capsule on the day that problems started.

Yes, it does sound like your frontal sinus is inflamed. The frontal sinus is a less common site for infection, but the sinus cavity inhabited by a diverse population of microrganisms both pathogenic and commensal. Amazingly, enough, until very recently, it was thought that the sinus cavity should be sterile. Actually, using the term infection is probably less appropriate as there is clearly a continuum of dysbiosis just like in the GIT. The symptomatic response to a dysbiotic sinus would presumably depend upon the microbial balance and the immune response generated as a result of the composition of the sinus microbiome, among other factors. I think, one needs to think of the sinus cavity like the GIT; there can be a compromise of the lining of the sinus cavity like in the GIT, this can cause epithelial dysfunction and damage to the cilia that lines these epithelial surfaces. Bad bacteria can cause this sort of damage, and the consequence is inflammation and pain.

i suppose you may or may not have mucosal sloughing associated with this, just like in the GIT. This is a complicated subject that I think parallels the protection of the intestinal epithelium, which relates to a number of factors, including the microbial balance and immune response and the production, assimilation and degradation of glycosylated compounds. In brief, we have these extracellular matrices which are largely comprised of polysaccharides and found throughout the sinus cavities, GIT, and other areas and include microbial organisms. You can call it a biofilm for simplicity sake. These are made from extracellular compounds including mucin, glycoproteins, glycosaminoglycans, etc. Glycosaminoglycan, a.k.a. mucopolysaccharides are comprised in part of the amino acids of N-acetylglucosamine or N-Acetylgalactosamine. These GAGs are endogenously and exogenously biosynthesized by humans and our bacterial organisms, and both possess enzymes that breakdown these glycosidic bonds. With dysbiotic conditions there is an alteration in the ability to protect us against from pathogens so our own host enzymatic capabilities are altered in a way that tries to compensate for this. Unfortunately, bacterial organisms appear to be requisite for maintaining epithelial function; we cannot do this ourselves without our bacterial counterparts. Interestingly, our commensal organisms in the large intestine that maintain the environment on the surface of and within the mucosal layer have outstanding abilities to utilize n-acetylglucosamine and n-acetylgalctosamine, for example.

Well, I can begin to give you some examples of how SBO organisms would influence your immune response but these reasons would be speculative and based simply upon the capabilities of the organisms, which are largely derived from what would be important for a soil based organism. They would have robust ability to participate in dentrification and, in some cases, the glutamate metabolism and I can infer what impact this would have on the energy metabolism, which potentiates any immune response. It's one thing to say that something increases NK cell function, for example, but there is clearly a more fundamental explanation.

More generally, I view the development of cold sores as evidence of viral shedding. I'm not an expert in HSV, but it is my understanding that this virus cannot be defeated in a dormant state. The cold sores are a manifestation that the virus is active and susceptible to host defenses. I'm basing this more on anecdote and logic.

 

[Sasha]

The symptomatic response to a dysbiotic sinus would presumably depend upon the microbial balance and the immune response generated as a result of the composition of the sinus microbiome, among other factors.

I've only recently realised (partly as a result of reading this thread and coming to understand the importance of the gut microbiome) that we've all got a microbiome in our sinuses. Someone just suggested to me on another thread that daily nasal irrigation (which people with chronic sinusitis often try, me included) could disrupt the microbiome and on a quick search I found an RCT indicating that patients who discontinued this practice had fewer recurrences of sinusitis than those that maintained it. There go my nasal rinses.

In brief, we have these extracellular matrices which are largely comprised of polysaccharides and found throughout the sinus cavities, GIT, and other areas and include microbial organisms. You can call it a biofilm for simplicity sake.

There's a view that biofilms of bacteria might be a more likely cause of chronic sinusitis than fungal infections and a 1% solution of Johnson's Baby Shampoo in buffered saline has been tried. I was about to try it but now I'm nervous of wrecking my sinus microbiome, if I haven't already: and I'm not sure if I've got dysbiosis or (as someone has just suggested elsewhere) allergies, although allergies could presumably be a downstream effect of dysbiosis.

More generally, I view the development of cold sores as evidence of viral shedding. I'm not an expert in HSV, but it is my understanding that this virus cannot be defeated in a dormant state. The cold sores are a manifestation that the virus is active and susceptible to host defenses. I'm basing this more on anecdote and logic.

I've just googled 'viral shedding' and found that cold sores do indeed indicate viral shedding but I'm having trouble seeing it as evidence of a competent immune response. The response would surely have to be subdued below normal to allow the shedding and even if the virus could then be tackled, it's only ever a temporary and very local victory because the virus then just goes back to its latent state. Maybe I'm missing something, though!

It's very hard to know with all these things whether a worsening of symptoms, or the appearance of new ones, is a good sign or a bad one.

 

[Ripley]

The response would surely have to be subdued below normal to allow the shedding and even if the virus could then be tackled, it's only ever a temporary and very local victory because the virus then just goes back to its latent state. Maybe I'm missing something, though!

As I was saying a few comments back... Various fibers are showing promise against all sorts of pathogens, including stubborn viruses. Medicinal mushrooms — which basically contain immune-modulating fibers, compounds and metabolites — apparently have the ability to fight even the worst viral infections (HIV for instance).

The Pharmacological Potential of Mushrooms
This review describes pharmacologically active compounds from mushrooms. Compounds and complex substances with antimicrobial, antiviral, antitumor, antiallergic, immunomodulating, anti-inflammatory, antiatherogenic, hypoglycemic, hepatoprotective and central activities are covered, focusing on the review of recent literature.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1193547/

I love my PS, but I would classify PS as a "dumb" fiber in that it just stimulates the microbiome with food for RS degraders. Works great if you have a generally healthy microbiome. But the more advanced fibers that originate from trees (Larch AG is just one example) are operating on a much higher level than vegetable fibers. The mushrooms that grow on trees concentrate the compounds in the barks into highly intelligent fibers.

Traditionally, medicinal mushrooms are tree mushrooms. Ground mushrooms aren't typically considered to be medicinal, since they just concentrate whatever random compounds are in the ground.

But, again, the main problem with medicinal mushrooms are that they are expensive to obtain unless you have the expertise to harvest them yourself.

 

[Sasha]

As I was saying a few comments back... Various fibers are showing promise against all sorts of pathogens, including stubborn viruses. Medicinal mushrooms — which basically contain immune-modulating fibers, compounds and metabolites — apparently have the ability to fight even the worst viral infections (HIV for instance).

That's very interesting - and makes it more plausible that allowing a virus to shed to attack it might be a winnable strategy.

I love my PS, but I would classify PS as a "dumb" fiber in that it just stimulates the microbiome with food for RS degraders. Works great if you have a generally healthy microbiome. But the more advanced fibers that originate from trees (Larch AG is just one example) are operating on a much higher level than vegetable fibers. The mushrooms that grow on trees concentrate the compounds in the barks into highly intelligent fibers.

That's also very interesting. I've been wondering, when people have been talking about larch AG, whether such a fibre would actually have been part of a paleolithic diet. Would our ancestors have been eating trees? Or is it just a handy modern source of a type of fibre our ancestors would have been getting from some sort of plant that we don't eat these days?

Traditionally, medicinal mushrooms are tree mushrooms. Ground mushrooms aren't typically considered to be medicinal, since they just concentrate whatever random compounds are in the ground.

But, again, the main problem with medicinal mushrooms are that they are expensive to obtain unless you have the expertise to harvest them yourself.

Also very interesting! I'm on a supplement containing mushroom extract that's supposed to increase NK-cell function.

Especially since my single dose of liposomal Vitamin C set off a similar symptom to the Prescript Assist, I'm thinking I should maybe continue Prescript Assist but at a lower dose. The sinus headaches are hard to take, though - painkillers don't touch them, they last most of the day, I can't think straight when I've got them and I have to spend a lot of time lying down and feeling horrible. I wonder if that's the price I've got to pay to make the transition from sick to better.

 

[Ripley]

That's also very interesting. I've been wondering, when people have been talking about larch AG, whether such a fibre would actually have been part of a paleolithic diet. Would our ancestors have been eating trees? Or is it just a handy modern source of a type of fibre our ancestors would have been getting from some sort of plant that we don't eat these days?

Ah... Well, this is something I've been researching recently as I've delved into prebiotic fibers. It seems that there is a long history of eating barks and steeping them into teas.

The Sami people of Northern Scandinavia ate lots of tree bark.

Bark – healthy and tasty! (via Google Translate)

A special status in elderly Sami cuisine consumed dried or roasted inner bark of pine. This part of the bark, i.e. the thin layer between the wood and the thick outer bark is rich in carbohydrates, vitamin C and minerals. It also has cholesterol lowering properties…

…The use of the inner bark as a food supplement has been all over the Saami settlement area, Sápmi. Bark has also been used as a foodstuff among Siberian peoples and of Native Americans in North America…

..The bark is harvested in large quantities during savningsperioden in late June and was put up in storage for the winter…The bark could be eaten fresh, and was perceived then as a delicacy. Dried and chopped into flakes mixed it in various dishes. Bark flakes were a common ingredient in fish, meat and blood soups and broths…

…Pine bark has in no way been nödföda but on the contrary been a coveted staple resource.[LINK]

And from Wikipedia...

Soups are probably the most important use of plants for food by Maasai. Acacia nilotica is the most frequently used soup plant. The root or stem bark is boiled in water and the decoction drunk alone or added to soup. The Maasai are fond of taking this as a drug, and is known to make them energetic, aggressive and fearless. Maasai eat soup laced with bitter bark and roots containing cholesterol-lowering saponins; those urban Maasai who don't have access to the bitter plants tend to develop heart disease.[LINK]

You might even say that consuming trees (in various forms such as roots/barks/mushrooms in various teas or extracts) is an essential part of ancestral health that is largely overlooked.

Also very interesting! I'm on a supplement containing mushroom extract that's supposed to increase NK-cell function.

Yep.. That's what I'm seeing as a common theme among medicinal mushrooms (which are usually tree/bark based). They concentrate the most powerful compounds of the barks into a highly concentrated package that can target various aspects of the immune system.

A few mushrooms that looks the promising (so far) for ME/CFS appears to be Kawaratake (Coriolus versicolor) and perhaps Tochukas (Cordyceps sinensis).

KAWARATAKE (Coriolus versicolor)
Kawaratake [also known as "Turkey Tail" mushroom] is usually referred to by its scientific name of Coriolus versicolor in the West. It is also known as Yun Zhi in Chinese medicine, where it is valued for relieving tiredness, lung disorders and chronic diseases. Over 400 clinical studies published in Japan since the 1970s have shown that a purified extract of Coriolus versicolor , known as “polysaccharide K”, or PSK, has strong benefits for the immune system, when given alone or with conventional chemotherapy or radiation treatments.

The most impressive clinical demonstration of PSK's anti-tumour function comes from a long-term placebocontrolled trial, in which 56 patients took PSK daily following surgery for cancer of the colon or rectum. Six hospitals were involved in evaluating the patients' progress at three monthly intervals for the next thirteen years. The survival rate of the patients taking PSK was significantly higher than that of the control group and the activity of their leukocytes showed “remarkable enhancement”.(13) PSK appears to act as an immune regulator, restoring immune potential to normal levels after it has been depressed by cancer or chemotherapy. PSK taken by mouth promotes the production and activity of T-lymphocytes and the cytokines produced by monocytes and macrophages. When injected directly into tumours, PSK has been shown to kill the tumour cells.(14)

In pioneering work carried out at the Breakspear Hospital, Hemel Hempstead, UK, by Dr Jean Monro, supplementation with Coriolus versicolor increased the numbers and activity of natural killer cells in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and reduced the severity of a wide range of symptoms. Changes in natural killer cell levels have been found to accurately reflect the progress of chronic fatigue syndrome and its remission.(15) Coriolus supplementation has also resulted in increased energy and reduced susceptibility to viral infections in HIV patients.(16)

TOCHUKAS (Cordyceps sinensis)
Tochukas is another mushroom that is name, better known in the West by its scientific TCordyceps sinensis. It is a fungus with a bizarre life cycle, which is summed up in its Chinese name, Dong Chong Xia Cao, which translates as “winter worm, summer grass”. The fungal mycelium invades and parasitises the buried caterpillar of a species of moth. After the caterpillar dies, the fungus produces fruiting bodies from the head of the caterpillar that look like black blades of grass. Cordyceps has been prized in China for its medicinal properties since the Tang dynasty. Because of its rarity, it was traded for its weight in silver. Luckily, a way has been found to grow the fungus commercially on a sterile medium of soya beans or grains, so increasing its availability and popularity. Cordyceps remained virtually unknown outside China until 1993, when Chinese athletes who had been taking it broke world records in swimming and running, prompting world interest. In the last 20 years, the therapeutic value of Cordyceps has been demonstrated in many clinical trials. Cordyceps has been credited with increasing energy levels and libido, reducing fatigue and enhancing cellular use of oxygen.

In a three-month placebo-controlled trial involving elderly patients with fatigue and other symptoms, a 92% improvement in energy levels was seen, compared with 14% in the control group.(17) Like Coriolus versicolor, Cordyceps acts as an immune regulator, stimulating immune activity when it is too low and damping it down if too high. This means that Cordyceps could be useful in the treatment of both immune deficiency and auto-immune conditions.

Other studies have found Cordyceps to be effective in reducing the size of tumours in lung cancer patients,(18) as an anti-asthmatic and cough suppressant,(19) and in improving blood circulation, lowering cholesterol levels and reducing blood viscosity.(20) Researchers in China have found Cordyceps to be of value in treating kidney disease (chronic renal failure) and in controlling the common complications of this condition.

The dietary supplements of Cordyceps sinensis that has been tested so far have not been associated with any side effects.[LINK]

The interesting thing is you don't need high quantities of these mushrooms to have a huge effect on the immune system. It's staggering what a few grams of these compounds can do. And if you look into the research investigating these mushrooms, I think you'll be pretty amazed at what researchers have found even over the past few years. Here, just Google Scholar "Cordyceps fatigue" and you'll get an idea of what research is being done:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Cordyceps fatigue

These medicinal mushrooms have extraordinarily advanced anti-parasitic, anti-fungal, anti-viral, anti-pathogenic and anti-inflammatory properties. These have been largely ignored in the West until very recently.

This thread is quite long, so it might make sense for me to start a new thread on medicinal mushrooms and the science behind them. But, if you look around this forum, you will find people who have dabbled with these mushrooms, so I wouldn't necessarily say they are a panacea. However, I'm fairly sure they are an important ingredient to any regimen.

At any rate, here are a few medicinal mushrooms that have become very popular in recent years.

http://www.ion.ac.uk/information/onarchives/medicinalmushrooms

Potato starch is quite literally the carbs for your microbiome. It's a staple. It gives the microflora energy and (hopefully) creates a robust ecosystem for that flora to thrive in. But it doesn't necessarily fix anything on the level that these mushroom/tree-based fibers can in terms of modulating the immune system for special cases. These tree-based fibers seem to have the ability to target very specific actions in the body.

 

[Sasha]

Thanks, @Ripley - that's fascinating. You're right, it deserves its own thread.

 

[Ripley]

Check this video out about where Cordyceps comes from:

Sooo... Cordyceps is one of the few medicinal mushrooms that doesn't come from directly from trees. Although, one could easily argue that the insects eat the leaves of trees and concentrate the tree compounds in their bodies. At any rate, the growth medium is very specific and static, unlike ground mushrooms (which tend to be poisonous) that can concentrate whatever toxins are randomly beneath it.

Ok... so that video kind of freaks me out. But, I suspect our Western aversion to fungi is partly to blame for our ignorance.

But the funny thing is that these mushrooms are supposedly very well tolerated by humans. And they have a looong history of use. No known side effects from any of them other than some drug amplifications with aspirin, painkillers and blood thinners (best not to take medicinal mushrooms with any of those).

 

[Sasha]

Argh! That image is going to take some getting out of my head. And this stuff is medicinal????

 

[Ripley]

Argh! That image is going to take some getting out of my head. And this stuff is medicinal????

Yeah... again, that's why Westerners tend to shun them.

Well, the good news is that Cordyceps companies have figured out a way to grow the mushroom without using insects. And the other good news is that the compounds in these mushrooms are well studied, and they don't contain anything that can hurt you.

If you think about it, the leaves of some trees contain some very potent compounds. And since it's rather difficult for a mushroom to grow on a leaf, it makes sense for the mushroom to grow where the compounds it likes to consume are concentrated — and that would be in the insects themselves. Yuk, I know.

 

[adreno]

I've tried cordyceps and beta glucan. Cordyceps lowers cortisol and makes my fatigue much worse. Beta glucans were far too immune stimulating for me, felt like having the flu constantly. I've tried a few mushroom mixes, but must say I didn't benefit much from them. There are quite a few mushroom threads on the board, but I never heard of anyone here who had much luck with them. So far, I'm unimpressed with medicinal mushrooms.

 

[Ripley]

I've tried cordyceps and beta glucan. Cordyceps lowers cortisol and makes my fatigue much worse. Beta glucans were far too immune stimulating for me, felt like having the flu constantly. I've tried a few mushroom mixes, but must say I didn't benefit much from them. There are quite a few mushroom threads on the board, but I never heard of anyone here who had much luck with them. So far, I'm unimpressed with medicinal mushrooms.

Hmm... that's too bad. That's pretty much as immune-modulating as fibers can get from what I can tell.

Still. Based on the research, I would think Kawaratake ["Turkey Tail"] (Coriolus versicolor) would be at least worth a try.

 

[adreno]

Still. Based on the research, I would think Kawaratake ["Turkey Tail"] (Coriolus versicolor) would be at least worth a try.

It might be. Actually, I have considered Turkey Tail before, but never got around to trying it:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-d-deficiency-and-steps-to-autoimmunit.21066/

 

[Vegas]

I've only recently realised (partly as a result of reading this thread and coming to understand the importance of the gut microbiome) that we've all got a microbiome in our sinuses. Someone just suggested to me on another thread that daily nasal irrigation (which people with chronic sinusitis often try, me included) could disrupt the microbiome and on a quick search I found an RCT indicating that patients who discontinued this practice had fewer recurrences of sinusitis than those that maintained it. There go my nasal rinses.

There's a view that biofilms of bacteria might be a more likely cause of chronic sinusitis than fungal infections and a 1% solution of Johnson's Baby Shampoo in buffered saline has been tried. I was about to try it but now I'm nervous of wrecking my sinus microbiome, if I haven't already: and I'm not sure if I've got dysbiosis or (as someone has just suggested elsewhere) allergies, although allergies could presumably be a downstream effect of dysbiosis.

I've just googled 'viral shedding' and found that cold sores do indeed indicate viral shedding but I'm having trouble seeing it as evidence of a competent immune response. The response would surely have to be subdued below normal to allow the shedding and even if the virus could then be tackled, it's only ever a temporary and very local victory because the virus then just goes back to its latent state. Maybe I'm missing something, though!

It's very hard to know with all these things whether a worsening of symptoms, or the appearance of new ones, is a good sign or a bad one.

I think using the sinus rinse intermittently is a reasonable approach, such as with the onset of a cold or allergy season. For me, occasional, prophylactic use of a sinus rinse with saline and probiotics seemed to reduce the risk of developing sinusitis or an acute infection.

I completely understand your skepticism regarding the immune response as there is an expectation that this should result in desirable symptoms, and of course, what good is a limited response that does not erradicate an infection. I can only respond that immunocompetency is scalable, and improvements ostensibly have to happen in increments. It is my belief that very measured, incremental changes, particularly in innate immunity, are likely made necessary by the severe epithelial dysfunction, which may be fundamental in the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. I'm not even convinced there has to be a particularly large burden of bacterial pathogens when there is severe epithelial dysfunction and certain commensal organisms are scarce. i think many fail to appreciate the significance of having these bacterial organisms constantly stimulating the extra-intestinal tissues. In fact, it appears as if the oxidizing conditions eventually results in a scarcity of bacterial commensals that stimulate this immune response; in effect, when me/cfs becomes severe oxidative stress is severe. This may necessarily involve a collapse of these aero-intolerant organisms, which happen to be critical to the immune response. The organisms can be effectively neutralized in the GIT, but the epithelial dysfunction is what opens the door to such a dangerous immune response. As I see it, the organisms that are scarce also may have a special ability to migrate to these extra-intestinal tissues.

Immunomodulating agents like liposomal Vitamin C and prebiotics are among the most potent of the known biological response modifiers. They amplify our NK, macrophage, T-cell responses, etc. Unfortunately for those of us with disproportionate pathogenic loads and limited bioenergetic/anti-inflammatory capabilities these effects are particularly damaging because of the ROS this creates. As you probably know, these immune cells use respiratory bursts to combat these pathogens and this involves the production of oxidizing substances like hydrogen peroxide and superoxide. Of course it also has to be understood that mast cells, histamine, pro-inflammatory cytokines, TNF-a, and other inflammatory mediators carry out necessary functions including the promotion of healing, walling-off infection, etc.

I do think you need to ask yourself, what do you stand to gain from this approach? There has to be a cost benefit analysis, and I think everyone needs a plan before embarking on a trial of prebiotics/probiotics. I will also caution that there may not be an easy exit strategy once one begins the process of re-establishing immunocompetency.

Obviously, I also don't know to what degree my conclusions about the underlying pathophysiology are accurate, but I am seeing many results that I have predicted along with some reproducibility. We are also witnessing some very distressing symptoms paired with some impressive gains. This has been the pattern I have become familiar with, and it is my hope that eventually we can develop more ways to mitigate the adverse symptoms. I think until this happens, the most influential control point seems to be the quantity/type of prebiotic, so this should be used with great caution. I can tell you that on Sunday I felt better than I have felt in 5 years, but this has since been accompanied by a number of challenging days as I experiment with new prebiotics.

I look forward to when we have genera and species level intestinal microbiomic data from a large ME/CFS sample. I truly believe we need this more detailed taxonomic data. Perhaps this will allow those with ME/CFS to gain some conviction about the role of bacterial pathogens or rather the role of certain critical, but lacking commensal organisms. I anticipate that this will demonstrate aberrations in concentrations of those organisms that I think are most important in maintaining intestinal epithelial barrier function, especially those that populate the mucosa and produce enzymes that modify the same, including specific clostridial, bacteroides, and bifidobacterial species. I will be looking for perturbations in organisms that participate in the nitrogen cycle, and those that synthesize and utilize acetate and butyrate. I am most interested in a scarcity of butyrate synthesizers that utilize the butyryl-CoA:acetate CoA-transferase pathways, as I think this will be a nearly universal finding. Perhaps this information will allow more informed guidance about how to achieve more substantial gains at less cost. I welcome people to post intestinal microbiomic data.

 

[Vegas]

Hmm... that's too bad. That's pretty much as immune-modulating as fibers can get from what I can tell.

Still. Based on the research, I would think Kawaratake ["Turkey Tail"] (Coriolus versicolor) would be at least worth a try.

I have to think that medicinal mushrooms are actually quite similar to the other prebiotics. Their immunomodulating properties relate in large part to the polysaccharides contained within the fungal cell walls. As you probably know, these are comprised of various beta glucans, chitin, glucomannan(?). Can it really be coincidental that some of these compounds are preferentially accessible by colonic commensals? This also goes back to your idea about the size of these polysaccharides and their ability to pass through the epithelium. I suspect this allows them to be used in the mesenteric lymphatics and elsewhere to influence the immune cell response. Only certain organisms can degrade these compounds and there are stages of degradation that take place over time. Beta-glucan and chitin, which I believe are the primary polysaccharides that comprise certain fungi are extraordinarily effective at expanding particular Bifidobacterial and Clostridial species. I'd say the immunmodulation is induced by the expansion of these organisms, their enzymatic capacity, and the effects this has on amplifying host immunity.

These do pack quite a punch as I can attest, but some of these compounds also appear to have particular specificity in modifying the GIT in the way that is likely to contribute to restoration of immunocompetency.

 

[Ripley]

I have to think that medicinal mushrooms are actually quite similar to the other prebiotics. Their immunomodulating properties relate in large part to the polysaccharides contained within the fungal cell walls. As you probably know, these are comprised of various beta glucans, chitin, glucomannan(?). Can it really be coincidental that some of these compounds are preferentially accessible by colonic commensals?

You are precisely right. However, not all polysaccharides are created equal. As best as I can tell, it's the beta-glucans that seem to pack the most immune-modulating punch.

Beta glucans (most often found in medicinal mushrooms) seem to have the power to do things that other prebiotics cannot easily do:

Yeast and medicinal mushroom derived β-glucans are notable for their ability to modulate the immune system. One study has shown that insoluble (1,3/1,6) β-glucan, has greater biological activity than that of its soluble (1,3/1,4) β-glucan counterparts.[3] The differences between β-glucan linkages and chemical structure are significant in regards to solubility, mode of action, and overall biological activity.[LINK]

and the entry goes on to say...

β-Glucan and the immune system
β-Glucans are known as "biological response modifiers" because of their ability to activate the immune system. Immunologists have discovered that receptors on the surface of innate immune cells called dectin-1and complement receptor 3 (CR3 or CD11b/CD18) are responsible for binding to β-glucans, allowing the immune cells to recognize them as "non-self".[LINK]

And one of the most interesting polysaccharides is Polysaccharide-K (PSK), which actually contains beta-glucan, and appears to have powerful anticancer activity.

So, what I'm seeing are references to different kinds of polysaccharides (or at least their metabolites) that specifically fit into very specific receptors and trigger certain actions in the body.

So, I see a bag of potato starch as a good everyday meal for the microbiome, but PS doesn't have things like β-Glucans and PSK that can modulate very specific areas of the immune system. From what I can tell, different mushrooms and barks seem to offer some of these very immune-specific polysaccharides.

This also goes back to your idea about the size of these polysaccharides and their ability to pass through the epithelium. I suspect this allows them to be used in the mesenteric lymphatics and elsewhere to influence the immune cell response. Only certain organisms can degrade these compounds and there are stages of degradation that take place over time. Beta-glucan and chitin, which I believe are the primary polysaccharides that comprise certain fungi are extraordinarily effective at expanding particular Bifidobacterial and Clostridial species. I'd say the immunmodulation is induced by the expansion of these organisms, their enzymatic capacity, and the effects this has on amplifying host immunity.

Right. I think that does fit into what I was saying about persorption. I definitely think there's an aspect of that. But, I also think that some of these unique polysaccharides are metabolized by bacteria into other compounds (i.e. metabolites) which are then persorbed into the blood and can have a significant impact on the human body and the immune system.

For instance, and I think this is really important, Dr. Grace/BG has always recommended high ORAC supplementation with potato starch. Few people have mentioned that here, and it largely gets overlooked (even I overlooked it until recently). On the surface, this probably looks like an attempt to be "healthy" since everyone knows that antioxidants are good for you. But, she references a number of studies that show how even small amounts of these antioxidants can have a massive beneficial effect in the GIT. And I can attest that adding high-ORAC supplementation into my gut made profound changes that RS alone could not do. I can also attest that adding more ORAC gave me some mild herx-like reactions.

More specifically, and among other things, this paper explains how all sorts of polyphenolic compounds are metabolized by gut bacteria into metabolites that can do all sorts of things for the body. Check it out...

http://opus.bibliothek.uni-wuerzburg.de/frontdoor/index/index/docId/6534

So, for instance, it says "Procyanidins, catechin, epicatchin, epigallocatechin [found in maritime pine bark extract, green tea, grape seed extract, cocoa, green tea, wine, berries, nuts]" get metabolized into "5-(3’,4’- Dihydroxyphenyl)-γ- valerolactone", which has anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer effects. Most people don't think about that pathway, but I think it's a big part of why Dr. Grace recommends high ORAC supplementation with RS.

Other than producing SCFAs (a terrific set of metabolites in their own right) RS alone doesn't really stimulate the immune system in the same way that a tree bark or a mushroom or a high ORAC food will because RS doesn't really metabolize into these highly specific metabolites that unlock all of these anti-cancer and anti-inflammatory receptors like PSK or β-Glucans can.

My impression is that there are many different kinds of β-glucans and I see these unique polysaccharides and β-glucans as very unique "keys" to our immune system and different barks, mushrooms and plants seem to be good sources of these keys, each specializing in different aspects of the immune system.

These do pack quite a punch as I can attest, but some of these compounds also appear to have particular specificity in modifying the GIT in the way that is likely to contribute to restoration of immunocompetency.

We are clearly saying the same thing!

 

[Vegas]

Yes, but how do these chemical changes take place?

Why do Procyanidins, catechin, epicatchin, epigallocatechin, or at least, in some cases, the plants from which these are derived, generally promote the growth of bifidobacteria? Why are high ORAC fruits so strongly bifidogenic?

I think much of the metabolic changes in these compounds can only be carried out by bacterial organisms. I don't think many of these polysaccharides are accessible without the contribution of certain commensal organism.

Do you think humans can directly benefit from these insoluble B-Glucans? I'm honestly not sure, but I don't think humans possess the enzymatic capacity to access many of these insoluble fibers.