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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Low microbial diversity in the gut is associated with many diseases. Usually low diversity results from starvation of fiber, but conceivably supplementation with large doses of resistant starch could bring about a similar result.

I consider the optimal amount of fiber to still be an open research question. We don’t know the answer. But I am confident the optimal amount is not “infinite fiber.” There will be some amount that is too much.

Incidentally, getting a diversity of fiber types – not just resistant starch – will be important, as this too will promote microbial diversity. This is one reason a natural whole foods approach is likely to be optimal.


I agree with Jaminet's point. I think everyone should make an effort to eat a diversity of fibers.

But, I don't see 30-40g of RS to be an insane amount of RS. It's an amount you could find in nature. Here's how Tim Steele put it:

Tim Steele said:
Here’s my take on 4TBS of [PS]. This is the amount found in one medium sized potato, a double handful of tiger nuts, one green plantain, a big chunk or wild yam. It’s not like inulin, where in order to get 40g you’d need to eat several pounds of raw onion or garlic. Of all the prebiotics, RS is the one found in the highest concentrations in nature, but we prepare the food in a way that destroys it. Tweaks in cooking can bring it back, if someone doesn’t want the accompanying calories or just want to really boost RS intake, [PS] is available.

I will be the first to say that a low-plant diet revolving around [PS] is a bad idea. [PS] should be used in a way that mimics a natural intake, ie. alongside other foods as in a smoothie or mixed in with mashed potatoes. I like to mix it in sour cream and put on a slightly cooled baked potato for instance. It should always be consumed with some natural fibers…psyllium husk and plantains have both been shown to increase the distal GI effects of [PS]. [LINK]


So, I think everyone agrees that lots of fiber diversity is optimal. But, as for excessive fiber, most of the coprolites (fossilized feces) of poo found from hunter gatherers show very high fiber intakes (such as 135g prebiotic inulin-type fructans per day!).

Additionally, scientists have found coprolites in the Hinds Caves that poop full of pollen (a natural form of raw prebiotic starch) with no other plant matter, which suggests they harvested the pollen and weren't just eating flowers.

http://ethnobiology.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/JoE/11-1/Reinhard.pdf

And the Hadza have been observed to consume between 75 to 100 grams of fiber per day, seven times the U.S. average, mostly from pulp and seeds of baobab fruits.

I doubt any of us will risk coming anywhere close to those HG fiber intakes with a few spoonfuls of fibers.
 
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Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
The last three weeks have been interesting. Symptomatically, it has been very up and down. Early on, there was a marked reduction in the widespread achiness that has persisted for so long, along with a clear reduction in P.E.M., After a week or so I experienced the drowsiness that I consider the good variety; the sort that seems to be accompanied by a need to sleep, as contrasted to the typical fatigue of overexertion, or wired/tired sensation. I have always considered this type of drowsiness part of an anabolic process.

Unfortunately, during the second week I was exposed to a GI virus, which has complicated my assessment of what is happening. I've also been exposed to huge amounts of sun over the last three weeks, so this may have also contributed to my recent experiences.

With that said, in the last ten days I have developed some of the worst fatigue I have had in a long time. It had me a bit concerned, until I was able to correlate this with what has happening. There is a clear correlation to the GIT, my fatigue has almost certainly been brought about by the displacement of bacteria. In the lulls between the fatigue, I was unusually active, without any discernible P.E.M. It's been an adjustment though because previously, when this would happen, I could tell exactly what was happening because every lymphatic structure would be tender, if not painful.

The fatigue has been preceeded/accompanied by huge lymphatic flow from the messenteric lymph nodes--the ones that should be engaged--to such an extent that I developed some swelling in the paraspinal lymph nodes and my back started cramping up. I've learned the patterns over the last two years, and there has been a major change in inflammation, which happened in just a number of days. Previously, the "peripheral" lymph nodes were highly engaged, and I ached all over, but now I only have some mild achiness aside from those lymph nodes that communicate with the GIT. The AG induced these changes in less than a week.

So after a couple of weeks, I was feeling very good, then the fatigue started, I also developed some gall bladder pain and I believe my liver has been processing a very substantial endotoxin load. The sense I get is that permeability improved very rapidly, and systemic inflammation is hugely improved, but this has allowed for a diversion of resources to the GIT infection. I anticipate that the fatigue is going to be transient. I witnessed both some of the best and worst days with my youngest children after the first and only 2 grams of AG, it was startling.

Personally, I consider having taken the AG a very positive step, albeit a difficult one. The immunomodulatory effects of AG seem to be less specific than PS, and I think this is in part explained by the greater diversity of organisms able to utilize arabinose and galactose.

I'm only taking 2 grams or so about 4 days a week, which is probably more than I need. After having examined some of the data about organisms capable of fermenting these carbohydrates, I think most will benefit from AG over time, but a smaller quantity of an even greater variety of resistant starches may be more suitable given the complex ecological relationships that comprise the human intestinal microbiota.

Still, I think it would be advisable to individually trial prebiotics in an attempt to gain an understanding of its effects. Also, as I previously suggested, I think there is significance to the order in which this prebiotic manipulation of microorganisms is carried out. In my opinion, had I implemented AG ahead of PS, I believe I would have realized benefits. Providing different fermentable carbohydrates to those strictly anaerobic bacteria, which principally inhabit the colonic mucosa seems to be producing the most dramatic results, but I'm not sure we have identified the ideal substrates. While this will clearly involve individual variability, I have some thoughts about some other prebiotics, and I will soon begin trialing one or more of these.

One more thing, the AG has resulted in an increased tolerance to PS, in other words, fewer "side effects" from the same quantity.
 
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Aileen

Senior Member
Messages
615
Location
Canada
My PS and AG both arrived today. Now I am trying to decided what to start when and dosage.

The probiotics I am currently taking are b. infantis (4 weeks) and s. boulardii (1 week). I want to get on SBOs but this appears to be a problem in Canada. I ordered AOR 3, but it has been on backorder for over a month. Something to do with the FDA. We can't seem to get Prescript-Assist here (that's the one I really want) and US websites are not allowed to ship probiotics to Canada. :( I do have Mutaflor on order. It should arrive next week.

According to what Vegas posted above, perhaps I should start with the AG first in order to tolerated the PS better and have less difficulty? I have severe MCS. But, would I be encouraging more butyrate with PS? I'm so confused!!
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I started taking Prescript Assist at 1/3 capsule/day a fortnight ago, hoping it would help my chronic sinusitis as it did Richard Nikoley's.

Four days in I started a run of sinus headaches that lasted eight days, including one that started late at night and that I woke up with the next day (unheard of). Six days in I developed a very sore mouth with rough skin (some of it shed this week before going smooth again but it's still tender in places).

I stopped the Prescript Assist after 11 days in case these things were connected. It could be coincidence, of course.

Does this sound like a likely adverse reaction? Healing crisis? Coincidence?

It's frustrating not to have access to any tests to show me what's going on in my gut. We don't have access to these tests in the UK. I sent a sample off to uBiome two months ago and I'm still waiting for the results so clearly, they're not going to be much use in monitoring anything.
 

Aileen

Senior Member
Messages
615
Location
Canada
It's frustrating not to have access to any tests to show me what's going on in my gut. We don't have access to these tests in the UK. I sent a sample off to uBiome two months ago and I'm still waiting for the results so clearly, they're not going to be much use in monitoring anything.
Sorry you are having so much trouble Sasha. I've been waiting for uBiome results too, also for 2 months. :(
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Here's an interesting chart showing the basic differences of various fibers.

fibers_not_equal.gif


Source: All Fibers Are Not Created Equal
Amazingly, Westerners eat every fiber that doesn't decrease glycemic index o_O

At any rate, you'll notice that Oat Bran, Beta Glucan and Inulin are known to be immune enhancers (and we know AG is an immune enhancer as well). Beta Glucan, a kind of polysaccharide, is most naturally found in medicinal mushrooms.

Search this forum for medicinal mushroom use and you'll fine some similar reactions to what people are experiencing here with fiber experimentation. The medicinal mushrooms and their Beta Glucans (among other compounds) appear to be very powerful fibers and obviously have a long history of use.

As I understand it, these Beta Glucans are like "keys" to our immune receptors. When we ingest Beta Glucans, we unlock immune functions and activate them (NK cells, macrophages, lymphocytes, etc.). Beta-Glucans can also normalize an overactive immune system (i.e. auto-immune) sort of like locking down receptors that are open for no reason, only re-opening them when needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-glucan#.CE.B2-Glucan_and_the_immune_system

This appears to be why many medicinal mushrooms are classified as adaptogens, and have a sort of immune intelligence to them. And, interestingly, you don't need to ingest very much to access their immune-enhancing qualities. Unfortunately, unless you find them in the woods, they can be quite expensive.
 
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Aileen

Senior Member
Messages
615
Location
Canada
Took my first dose of AG today. 1/4 teaspoon (used measuring spoon and carefully leveled it) Mixed it in room temperature water and took it with my probiotics. I take them in the afternoon between my 2 main "meals".

I haven't noticed any changes since starting any probiotics (about a month) in gastro issues. I get aching in my salivary glands and my throat. As though a cloth was being held under my chin from the glands below each ear. Sometimes sleepiness.

The addition of AG today made it a bit more intense temporarily. We'll see how things progress. I'm going to stay at 1/4 tsp for a few days.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
A few packets ago, I noticed that my potato starch (Kockens Potatismjol from Ocado) wasn't a freely-flowing powder any more but sort of 'creaks' if I put a spoon in it (sort of like fresh snow does if you tread on it) and clumps together, but not as though there's water in it. I tested it and it still drops out of solution as before. It's not damp as far as I can tell and it's happened with every packet since. Is this a seasonal thing? Is there something wrong with it?
 

Aileen

Senior Member
Messages
615
Location
Canada
My 2nd day on AG. I feel horrible. Now it is my entire neck, face and head that is involved. Had facial twitching and spasms. Right now I've got a headache and pain in my left eye and nasal passage.

Since the effects seem to be at the top rather than the gut, I'm wondering if it's a bad idea putting the powder in water and drinking it. Maybe instead I should put the powder into empty capsules and take it that way?

Would it feed bacteria in different places if taken in or without a capsule? Perhaps I am feeding bugs in the wrong part of the colon?
 

Christopher

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Pennsylvania
Hold
My 2nd day on AG. I feel horrible. Now it is my entire neck, face and head that is involved. Had facial twitching and spasms. Right now I've got a headache and pain in my left eye and nasal passage.

Since the effects seem to be at the top rather than the gut, I'm wondering if it's a bad idea putting the powder in water and drinking it. Maybe instead I should put the powder into empty capsules and take it that way?

Would it feed bacteria in different places if taken in or without a capsule? Perhaps I am feeding bugs in the wrong part of the colon?
Stop and reassess after a couple weeks.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
My 2nd day on AG. I feel horrible. Now it is my entire neck, face and head that is involved. Had facial twitching and spasms. Right now I've got a headache and pain in my left eye and nasal passage.

Since the effects seem to be at the top rather than the gut, I'm wondering if it's a bad idea putting the powder in water and drinking it. Maybe instead I should put the powder into empty capsules and take it that way?

Would it feed bacteria in different places if taken in or without a capsule? Perhaps I am feeding bugs in the wrong part of the colon?
I would hold off until the symptoms subside before taking another dose. I used to get extreme reactions to the first 3-4 doses, but they are much milder now, and I can take them more frequently.

I don't think it matters if you use a capsule or not. Instead you might want to take it with food and/or some psylium to ensure the AG gets to the colon.
 

Aileen

Senior Member
Messages
615
Location
Canada
Thanks @Christopher and @adreno
I have been taking my probiotics and the AG between meals thinking that if I did that there may not be so much stomach acid. Food would be a signal to the stomach to produce more acid in preparation for digestion, would it not?

I will try taking them with food and see if it makes a difference. And give the AG a rest for a few days.

One other very strange thing happened yesterday after taking the AG. I usually eat 5 or 6 potato chips once or twice a day with a meal. Yesterday, they tasted sooo salty. Much more than usual and to the point of being sickening. It was from a bag I'd been eating for the past week so it was not the chips. Any idea what that could be about?? Weird!
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Thanks @Christopher and @adreno
I have been taking my probiotics and the AG between meals thinking that if I did that there may not be so much stomach acid. Food would be a signal to the stomach to produce more acid in preparation for digestion, would it not?

I will try taking them with food and see if it makes a difference. And give the AG a rest for a few days.

One other very strange thing happened yesterday after taking the AG. I usually eat 5 or 6 potato chips once or twice a day with a meal. Yesterday, they tasted sooo salty. Much more than usual and to the point of being sickening. It was from a bag I'd been eating for the past week so it was not the chips. Any idea what that could be about?? Weird!

I sometimes find that my sodium bicarbonate tastes stronger than usual even if the concentration is the same as usual. I'm never sure whether it means that my sodium/bicarb levels are high, so my body is telling me to go easy, or low, so that the contrast makes it taste stronger.

Note to anyone puzzled: I started taking sodium bicarbonate a couple of years ago due to a suspicion that my gut/stomach was too acidic, at least for a vegan diet (possibly d-lactic acidosis?). It's impossible to say for sure, but it seems to have been generally beneficial - for me. When I tried stopping it due to a worsening, I got even worse, and improved again after recommencing. I have now halved the dose and seem OK on that.
 

Aileen

Senior Member
Messages
615
Location
Canada
I was told once (I forget by whom) that if you like the taste of something like a sodium bicarb drink that most people would find awful, that it was because your body was deficient. Don't know how true it is.

I use Alka Seltzer Gold (sodium bicarb, potassium bicarb, citric acid) to help stop a reaction and usually find it very pleasant tasting. Yesterday I took it to try to help stop the symptoms after taking my pro & prebiotics and food but it tasted rather strong too. It didn't seem to help.

Do my troublesome gut bugs prefer acidic conditions? Or does it have something to do with sodium? OR ... did I feed some good bugs that then started to do their thing which produced something I am not used to or maybe they got into a fight with the bad bugs? This whole thing is so confusing. I wish I knew which part of the intestine is causing all this. :ill:

I was so sick last night. Didn't get to bed until 4:30am and then I had to sit up propped up with a stack of pillows behind me. Did manage to get a couple hours sleep after the triptan and tylenol knocked me out temporarily. So tired of going through this...
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I was told once (I forget by whom) that if you like the taste of something like a sodium bicarb drink that most people would find awful, that it was because your body was deficient. Don't know how true it is.

I use Alka Seltzer Gold (sodium bicarb, potassium bicarb, citric acid) to help stop a reaction and usually find it very pleasant tasting. Yesterday I took it to try to help stop the symptoms after taking my pro & prebiotics and food but it tasted rather strong too. It didn't seem to help.

Do my troublesome gut bugs prefer acidic conditions? Or does it have something to do with sodium? OR ... did I feed some good bugs that then started to do their thing which produced something I am not used to or maybe they got into a fight with the bad bugs? This whole thing is so confusing. I wish I knew which part of the intestine is causing all this. :ill:

I was so sick last night. Didn't get to bed until 4:30am and then I had to sit up propped up with a stack of pillows behind me. Did manage to get a couple hours sleep after the triptan and tylenol knocked me out temporarily. So tired of going through this...

The prebiotics resulted in a rapid increase in acetate and likely acetylcholine. Acetylcholine exerts control, to a very significant degree, over intracellular sodium and potassium transport. The potassium uptake gets inhibited by the acetylcholine and this affects the sodium/potassium balance. This is the same reason many artificially create a need for potassium by using supplements to increase methylation reactions in the body.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence to establish that your taste is a fairly reliable indicator of your micronutrient needs.

Bad bugs, in general, prefer more alkaline conditions in the colon. You will benefit from a lower pH and the acid production stimulated by the prebiotics to displace these pathogens. Although colonic pH will vary depending upon the segment, 6.5 is typical. The prebiotics you took could have resulted in pathogenic displacement throughout the entire length of the GIT and extraintestinally, but the direct microbial expansion and pathogenic "die off" predominantly involves the large intestine.

I'm not clear what sort of symptoms you are having, lots of GI distress? Care to elaborate?
 
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Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I would hold off until the symptoms subside before taking another dose. I used to get extreme reactions to the first 3-4 doses, but they are much milder now, and I can take them more frequently.

I don't think it matters if you use a capsule or not. Instead you might want to take it with food and/or some psylium to ensure the AG gets to the colon.


I don't think the form matters either. I've taken both capsules and powder.

Glad to hear your reaction is diminishing. Do you feel the AG has been beneficial or still too early to draw any conclusions.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I started taking Prescript Assist at 1/3 capsule/day a fortnight ago, hoping it would help my chronic sinusitis as it did Richard Nikoley's.

Four days in I started a run of sinus headaches that lasted eight days, including one that started late at night and that I woke up with the next day (unheard of). Six days in I developed a very sore mouth with rough skin (some of it shed this week before going smooth again but it's still tender in places).

I stopped the Prescript Assist after 11 days in case these things were connected. It could be coincidence, of course.

Does this sound like a likely adverse reaction? Healing crisis? Coincidence?

It's frustrating not to have access to any tests to show me what's going on in my gut. We don't have access to these tests in the UK. I sent a sample off to uBiome two months ago and I'm still waiting for the results so clearly, they're not going to be much use in monitoring anything.

"Head symptoms" seem to be one of the early expressions of a stimulated immune response,
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
"Head symptoms" seem to be one of the early expressions of a stimulated immune response,

Well, I had head symptoms big-time, that's for sure!

Good thing? Bad thing?

Either way, I daren't take any more for now. Got a mega-crop of cold sores that started a few days ago and wondering if that's a knock-on effect.