The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Gestalt

Gestalt

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@xjhuez what paper did you grab that table from?

adreno said:
It looks like it's the same, yes. Good find.
Click to expand...

No I don't believe it is the same. "FiberAid" has a molecular weight of ~22,000 Daltons where yet another compared product Called "ImmunEnhancer" has a molecular weight of 18,000-19,000 daltons. Not sure how that compares to Larix or Arabinex...

See Table 1 here: http://www.nutritioninnovation.com/agpaper.pdf
 
adreno

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Gestalt said:
No I don't believe it is the same. "FiberAid" has a molecular weight of ~22,000 Daltons where yet another compared product Called "ImmunEnhancer" has a molecular weight of 18,000-19,000 daltons. Not sure how that compares to Larix or Arabinex...

See Table 1 here: http://www.nutritioninnovation.com/agpaper.pdf
Click to expand...

Interesting. So not only does the type of fiber matter, but also the molecular weight? Complicated. According to the table, lower molecular weight fibre has more direct immune stimulating effects, whereas higher weight has more microflora supporting effects. Here is the table:

table.jpg
 
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Asklipia

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Gestalt said:
No I don't believe it is the same. "FiberAid" has a molecular weight of ~22,000 Daltons where yet another compared product Called "ImmunEnhancer" has a molecular weight of 18,000-19,000 daltons. Not sure how that compares to Larix or Arabinex...
Click to expand...
Here it says about Larix "This high molecular weight compound (main fractions of 16,000 & 100,000MW) is similar to immune modulating arabinogalactans found in Echinacea." I am not sure this is counted in Daltons. If so it could be a mix of bigger and smaller sizes to obtain both effects?

Arabinex is really ResistAid by Lonza. 15,000 to 60,000 Daltons. This makes it I suppose more aimed at an immune response then.
 
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Asklipia

Asklipia

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There is a lot of information about RS in this blog (MrHeisenbug).
The post about survivability of probiotics linked to fat intake is very interesting.
Citing this study : better take your probiotics 30 mns before a meal containing some fat.
No point taking probiotics if we do not do it at the best time!
 
finalgates

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Gestalt said:
@xjhuez what paper did you grab that table from?



No I don't believe it is the same. "FiberAid" has a molecular weight of ~22,000 Daltons where yet another compared product Called "ImmunEnhancer" has a molecular weight of 18,000-19,000 daltons. Not sure how that compares to Larix or Arabinex...

See Table 1 here: http://www.nutritioninnovation.com/agpaper.pdf
Click to expand...
but is it good for ammonia removal?and short chain fatty acids?resistant starch lowers ammonia?
 
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maryb

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I'm not up to reading through this thread - a lot of head pressure means I can't focus for more than a couple of minutes.
It looks really interesting though and it seems like some people having a little improvement so I thought Its worth a try. I don't have major IBS or anything just the general problems .many of us have.
So can people just chime in with what they're taking, brand and how much please, I will start very low anyway. And is Larix better than potato starch.
Thanks.

not to hijack the thread but @froufox if you find a magical cure for your constipation please let me know, enemas, suppositories etc. - I'm fed up with it all.
 
froufox

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anne_likes_red said:
@froufox - I've only been taking the Arabinex 5 days so far (at the recommended dose of about 2 tsp per day).
It does not seem to be stimulating the same processes the potato and green banana starches do. Was your negative reaction to it similar to what you've experienced recently?
I hope you're doing better now. Lymph situation improved??

@Sushi - I think all the good work you've done with KDM must be working in your favour. It does seem like your reactions are similar - just milder. I hope your improvements continue in a gentle snowballing fashion!
My lymph/fever symptoms resolved 100% by 3 weeks after ceasing all starch! :) What was difficult was that it had to run it's course, and the lymph pain were unfamiliar, and unrelenting! I have re-started at a much lower dose and so far symptoms are mild and manageable.

I'm experiencing benefits too - most notably with OI symptoms. On good days I'm able to be more active. There are jobs I usually leave for my husband (things that involve getting up high or down low) that I've found myself doing without hesitation....and with no negative consequences. Overall, I'm not needing to pace so aggressively to remain at the level of functioning I'm used to.
Click to expand...


Hi Anne, thats brilliant and very encouraging that you're experiencing similar benefits to Sushi, I hope these improvements continue! :) I am quite hesitant to take it again so will leave off it for the time being though the lymph symptoms have for the most part settled down now, which im relieved about. Will probably just take a crumb next time :cautious: I think that I'm feeling slightly better though energywise, but I dont know how much is down to the RS and/or the CDS!

Re the arabinogalactin, from what I recall I got a lot of bloating with it and I remember interpreting that at the time as a "bad" thing, as it was similar to my reaction to FOS, which I don't tolerate....however it might well just have been due to my gut flora readjusting. I cant remember if i had any other symptoms, its possible but it was about 8yrs ago and my memory is a bit vague...I didnt get any kind of flu symptoms like the RS tho. I hope you continue to feel a bit better :thumbsup:
 
froufox

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maryb said:
I'm not up to reading through this thread - a lot of head pressure means I can't focus for more than a couple of minutes.
It looks really interesting though and it seems like some people having a little improvement so I thought Its worth a try. I don't have major IBS or anything just the general problems .many of us have.
So can people just chime in with what they're taking, brand and how much please, I will start very low anyway. And is Larix better than potato starch.
Thanks.

not to hijack the thread but @froufox if you find a magical cure for your constipation please let me know, enemas, suppositories etc. - I'm fed up with it all.
Click to expand...

Hi Maryb, Ive only been taking between 1/4-1/2 a teaspoon once a week or once a fortnight! I seem to be very sensitive to it eg after my 3rd dose, i had a MAJOR flu (worst one of my life, and about the 2nd since Ive had since having ME in 21yrs!). The dose after that my lymph glands (armpits, groin, throat) became really congested and swelled up....its been almost 2 wks since that last dose, and the lymph issue is only just settling down now.

Others can tolerate higher doses so I wouldnt know what to advise dosage wise, but perhaps take a small dose eg 1/4 - 1/2tspn and wait for a few days to see how you react, just to be on the safe side. I remember the day after every dose I'd wake up with a sore throat and it was really sore just before I got the flu...so at least in my case the sore throat is an indicator of how bad things might get! Of course you might be completely different and be able to tolerate a higher dose.

Re the constipation, yeah i know what you mean! :rolleyes: that has settled down now that its been almost 2 weeks since my last dose, as after each dose it definitely gets worse, but I really have to keep up with the magnesium with either daily baths or injections, as well as lots and lots of fibre, probiotics. Good luck :)
 
Gestalt

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Quick update on the larch arabinogalactan experimenting.

Last night I tried Thorne's Arabinex, which has a totally different colour and slightly different taste and texture than the Eclectic Institute Larix product.

I took it 5 hours before bedtime, 3 tbsp, and could not fall asleep! My gf also tried 1tbsp yesterday 4 hours before bedtime and a hard time falling asleep as well. Despite this mentally she feels really energized today, as do I.

Therefore note, this may best be taken in the morning, rather than the evening as our n=2 experiment seems to show.

I am amazed at it's brain energizing effects. I think it has to do with the high levels of propinate and acetate it produces.

I think the enhanced production of acetate may dramatically increase acetyl-CoA levels in the body which is an important component in the synthesis of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. It's also an important part of the citric acid cycle.

This Larch arabinogalactan appears to be quite an effective brain hack and a excellent nootropic.

I am trying to figure out what the functions of the SCFA propinate and the mechanisms of action of it in the body are and am coming across very little information. Anyone have the down low on this?
 
anne_likes_red

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)Not a low down Gestalt, but I found this fairly recent review (you probably did too!)
Mechanisms linking dietary fiber, gut microbiota and colon cancer prevention
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3926973/

Similar to acetate, propionate has been shown to exert a concentration-dependent effect on the frequency of spontaneous contractions in longitudinal muscle via enteric nerves in rat distal colon[44]. In both animal and human studies, it has been shown that propionate reduces food intake and increases satiety via augmentation of the satiety hormone leptin, and through activation of GPCR43, 41[48,49]. Also, propionate may be protective against carcinogenesis because it reduces human colon cancer cell growth and differentiation via hyperacetylation of histone proteins and stimulation of apoptosis[50,51]. In addition, propionate also inhibits the production of proinflammatory cytokines (e.g., TNF-α, NF-κB) in multiple tissues[52,53].
Click to expand...

I have been taking approx. 2 tsp (one of the scoops provided) of Arabinex for a week now and I haven't noticed any brain energising effects! It could be that I'm not taking enough for that or it could be that I've got more bad stuff to get out of the way before improvement can begin. From around day 5 I woke with a headache - a detox type headache that I was able to take care of by taking a handful of charcoal last thing at night.

@maryb As well as some positives I've experienced some difficult downstream effects of the starch too (I think Vegas is right and this is pathogen displacement in a gut that hasn't reached it's integrity potential!!)
For me real problems didn't develop until a few weeks in.
Since early last week I've been taking 1 tsp resistant starch (mix of potato and green banana) every three days, but I have lymph congestion in the inguinal area again today so I skipped today's dose. When I get back to baseline I'll try 1/2 tsp doses.
My recommendation is you should be cautious. Best, Anne.
 
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maryb

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@froufox thanks for your reply, sorry to hear you had such a severe response, we really don't need to feel anymore ill do we? Do you understand why it had such an effect? sorry I don/t. So is your way forward to take even less and longer times inbetween?



@anne_likes_red

thanks for your reply, is you mix ready bought or do you buy the ingredients separately?
going off Froufox's response as well this sounds like it has the potential to be very powerful. So is it the immune system stimulating action of the stuff that is doing this? (with regards to the lymph symptoms I mean?)
 
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B

brenda

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I am wondering if RS stimulates the immune system, because I have autoimmune thyroiditis (Hashi's) and any immune stimulation increases my antibodies and impacts my thyroid by making me have more hypothyroid symptoms. I wonder if this is why some gain weight.

I came to this conclusion because I noticed that one of these symptoms is, as well as feeling colder and having drier skin, that my urine stream is more sluggish. It is about 5 days since I took my last dose of RS and I am watching to see if this is what is happening.

I am about to start candida treatment as it has been flaring the last couple of months and I wonder if that is the result of what is going on with my immune system due to RS, like attacking my thyroid and therefore leaving off the candida.
 
Asklipia

Asklipia

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It seems to me that the severity of the lymphatic reactions is different with different resistant starches.
Up to now I have been experimenting with Potato Starch and dried plantain slices.

Vastly different reactions. I could eat 10 times more dried plantain in weight with nearly no reaction.
So I have ordered some Larix to find out if this is still another lymphatic response with arabinogalactan.
 
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