The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Aileen]

What I'm wondering at the moment is whether it's possible to ever get such species back once they've been wiped out either through the pathology of illness or antibiotics or whatever...

The flora in the intestines differ from the flora in fecal matter, so it's possible you still have some bacteria left. I would give it a try.

I agree with adreno. However, if you do eventually find that you cannot get it back, you could always have a fecal transplant from someone who has that species and get it reintroduced that way.

 

[snowathlete]

@finalgates @adreno @Aileen - Yeah, to me it makes sense that there might be some left. Might being the key word here. I just don't know for sure, as I was on abx for a long time it could have all been wiped out. Having said that, I suspect a zero in the test is just that, none in that sample which is a fair representation perhaps, but may not signify total absence in my entire intestines.

I've tried to find out if anyone else before me has asked this question, but I haven't found an answer in my internet travels. Studies show that diversity does not return even after two years, following relativelt short term abxs. But I am actively trying to fix that known problem, so I think it's a bit different.

So It looks like I'll be traveling new ground here and will just have to see. I've ordered a uBiome test so I guess that will arrive in the next few weeks and will give a snap shot of the period now, shortly after abx and having just started fermented foods and stronger pro- and pre-biotics. Of course, I wont have the results for several months.
Then in six months or so I'll test again, after more work, including resistant starch and see what I have. Will be interesting to see.

 

[Aileen]

@snowathlete Which pro- and pre-biotics are you now trying?

 

[snowathlete]

@snowathlete Which pro- and pre-biotics are you now trying?

I'm finishing off my probiotics which KDM prescribed which have bifido strains and something else I forget along with some FOS. Someone kindly donated some very strong bifido powder as well which I'm going to start taking soon.

I've started homemade kefir, which is creating what I think is a herx.

I've also started Align, though the dose these sell you is much lower than that shown effective in the published papers.

I have some saurkraut fermenting away which ought to be ready in a couple of weeks.

In terms of diet, I'm eating a lot of different fibres and cooked cooled potatoes and rice.

I've ordered some FOS powder and apple pectin. And potato starch arrived yesterday. I won't be starting these for at least another week. I want to repopulate a little first.

I have some e.coli (mutaflor) in the fridge. Which i will add in once my stomach has adjusted to the kefir, or I've stopped taking the kefir, if it doesn't. I think this one could be very important.

Soil based probiotics are something I am thinking about and researching, though I have no immediate plans to take them, they could be important and I may take them if I need to further down the line.

 

[thomas_3000]

I agree with adreno. However, if you do eventually find that you cannot get it back, you could always have a fecal transplant from someone who has that species and get it reintroduced that way.

Good that you mention that. I think, for everyone who has severe issues, a fecal transplant should almost always be the first option. It's a better solution than self-experimentation in almost every way: almost guaranteed results, cheaper, and the duration of the therapy is between 1 day and 2-weeks.

Hell, I'm still considering it even though I'm starting to feel better and better.

 

[snowathlete]

Good that you mention that. I think, for everyone who has severe issues, a fecal transplant should almost always be the first option. It's a better solution than self-experimentation in almost every way: almost guaranteed results, cheaper, and the duration of the therapy is between 1 day and 2-weeks.

Hell, I'm still considering it even though I'm starting to feel better and better.

I'm optimistic about MFTs but I don't think there is enough evidence yet to support the notion of guaranteed results. I think there's only been one paper published on fecal transplants in me/cfs and that was quite small.
I think it has only really been proven so far in cases of c.diff. It's been studied a bit for IBDs but again, not enough yet.
DIY fecal transplants can be cheap, but they have drawbacks compared to fecal microbial transplants performed in appropriate labs, which arent so cheap, such as the loss of some, perhaps all, of the anaerobic bacteria, which could be essential.
There are other risks too - you can't screen for everything, and most tests you do run are not 100% reliable.

As I said, I'm optimistic that FMTs may become a proven effective treatment, and I'd even consider it before it is proven, but I don't think it comes with any guarantees just yet.

 

[Vegas]

I'm optimistic about MFTs but I don't think there is enough evidence yet to support the notion of guaranteed results. I think there's only been one paper published on fecal transplants in me/cfs and that was quite small.
I think it has only really been proven so far in cases of c.diff. It's been studied a bit for IBDs but again, not enough yet.
DIY fecal transplants can be cheap, but they have drawbacks compared to fecal microbial transplants performed in appropriate labs, which arent so cheap, such as the loss of some, perhaps all, of the anaerobic bacteria, which could be essential.
There are other risks too - you can't screen for everything, and most tests you do run are not 100% reliable.

As I said, I'm optimistic that FMTs may become a proven effective treatment, and I'd even consider it before it is proven, but I don't think it comes with any guarantees just yet.

I'm going to play the contrarian. I don't think FMT is going to have a big place as a therapeutic option for ME/CFS. I think attempts at restoring the microbiome in a singular or even multiple transplants are not going to produce a major lasting effect. One cannot simply "overwhelm" the existing GIT population because this does not effectively alter the conditions that are perpetuating the existing status, which includes pH, SCFA composition and concentration, epithelial dysfunction, exopolysaccharides/biofilm composition, pathogen concentration, etc. I suspect multiple transplants in mild cases of ME/CFS could potentially prove to be somewhat helpful or potentially therapeutic, but I think more moderate and severe illness will be marked by more severe GIT dysfunction. The survivability and success of the organisms is not going to be ensured by simply transplanting them to a new GIT. The environmental conditions require fundamental modification to allow for successful establishment of the optimal organisms.

The incredible toxicity of the endotoxins alone suggests to me that only a small portion of the pathogenic organisms can be displaced at any given moment of time. In other words, the host immune response has to be controlled or moderated to protect the host. Only a certain amount of microbiota modeling can happen in a set time frame, and thus only a certain amount of environmental alterations can similarly occur. I think the better strategy is going to involve slowly but steadily modifying the GIT with very selective pre and probiotics. That said, I don't think the risks are all that considerable, and some will likely achieve transient gains. Just my opinion.

 

[PDXhausted]

This highlights the fact that we just really need more research in this area. We are only at the tip of the iceberg!

 

[knackers323]

I'm finishing off my probiotics which KDM prescribed which have bifido strains and something else I forget along with some FOS. Someone kindly donated some very strong bifido powder as well which I'm going to start taking soon.

I've started homemade kefir, which is creating what I think is a herx.

I've also started Align, though the dose these sell you is much lower than that shown effective in the published papers.

I have some saurkraut fermenting away which ought to be ready in a couple of weeks.

In terms of diet, I'm eating a lot of different fibres and cooked cooled potatoes and rice.

I've ordered some FOS powder and apple pectin. And potato starch arrived yesterday. I won't be starting these for at least another week. I want to repopulate a little first.

I have some e.coli (mutaflor) in the fridge. Which i will add in once my stomach has adjusted to the kefir, or I've stopped taking the kefir, if it doesn't. I think this one could be very important.

Soil based probiotics are something I am thinking about and researching, though I have no immediate plans to take them, they could be important and I may take them if I need to further down the line.

Does it matter what kind of rice?

 

[snowathlete]

Does it matter what kind of rice?

Some varieties have more than others. There's a list somewhere that I saw. I think sticky rice had the most? Not sure where that list is now though. The main thing is that it's cooked then cooled (and subsequent reheating is ok) so a packet of uncle ben's for instance is ideal, and me/cfs friendly in that its not much effort to prepare.

 

[Asklipia]

A good read : Resistant Starch Friend or Foe?

 

[thomas_3000]

I'm going to play the contrarian. I don't think FMT is going to have a big place as a therapeutic option for ME/CFS. I think attempts at restoring the microbiome in a singular or even multiple transplants are not going to produce a major lasting effect. One cannot simply "overwhelm" the existing GIT population because this does not effectively alter the conditions that are perpetuating the existing status, which includes pH, SCFA composition and concentration, epithelial dysfunction, exopolysaccharides/biofilm composition, pathogen concentration, etc. I suspect multiple transplants in mild cases of ME/CFS could potentially prove to be somewhat helpful or potentially therapeutic, but I think more moderate and severe illness will be marked by more severe GIT dysfunction. The survivability and success of the organisms is not going to be ensured by simply transplanting them to a new GIT. The environmental conditions require fundamental modification to allow for successful establishment of the optimal organisms.

The incredible toxicity of the endotoxins alone suggests to me that only a small portion of the pathogenic organisms can be displaced at any given moment of time. In other words, the host immune response has to be controlled or moderated to protect the host. Only a certain amount of microbiota modeling can happen in a set time frame, and thus only a certain amount of environmental alterations can similarly occur. I think the better strategy is going to involve slowly but steadily modifying the GIT with very selective pre and probiotics. That said, I don't think the risks are all that considerable, and some will likely achieve transient gains. Just my opinion.

Yes, but if I recall correctly the proper FMT procedure includes first doing a course of antibiotics and/or a laxative in order to rid the bowels of as much (pathogenic) bacteria, and then follow that up with the "poo-shake" - which also has a lot of prebiotics in the form of oatmeal and possibly some other stuff. The goal, I think, is to essentially replace as much of the microbiota as possible and not just to "add" to the existing microbiota.

I'm a bit more optimistic regarding the possibilities of FMT, however I do hope that your opinion - of slow gains through pre & probiotics supplementation - turn out to be correct.

Bottom line is that we need more research on this!

 

[Vegas]

A good read : Resistant Starch Friend or Foe?

Regarding the comment in the article about several Bifidobacterial species being overrepresented in colon cancer, I think the problem there is the conclusion that there was a causal role for these organisms in the disease process. In all likelihood, this reflected a compensatory response. There was a void filled by these organisms, but they were not the optimal species for maintaining the most favorable conditions, and/or the environmental conditions favored the overabundance of this particular species. For some reason, researchers often don't extend the associations and consider more complex reasons for these associations. They seem to more commonly concentrate on the species overabundance as being harmful, and not ask the question why a particular species is overrepresented.

The evidence substantiating the pathogenicity of Bifidobacteria is very scant, and the only studies or reports I have seen suggesting pathogenicity were not very persuasive. Bifidobacterial strains are also highly individual in their properties and functions, and the species that were reportedly over-represented in this particular study are not among those that are typically absent. I believe they are heartier and more resistant to high-oxidative stress conditions than many other species. For example, B. Longum is particularly adept at ammonia metabolism, but it is not as effective in other roles, including inhibiting the growth of pathogenic organisms.

In effect, these species have roles, but their presumed overabundance doesn't imply that they are harmful; I think their overabundance implies that other species may be needed in greater concentrations to maintain the desired microbiome, but the environmental conditions just happened to be more conducive to these other species. They were carrying out many similar roles to those species that may be more scarcely represented, to the extent the environment and genetics allows them to do so.

 

[maddietod]

Does it matter what kind of rice?

I wrote notes from a lot of sources a few weeks ago, so I don't have a link to this. But my notes say that Free The Animal advises using parboiled rice because It has way more nutrition - the first cooking is with brown rice, and the nutrients in the bran get into the rice. Also the GL for most rice 100; parboiled is in the 30s.

 

[anne_likes_red]

@froufox - I've only been taking the Arabinex 5 days so far (at the recommended dose of about 2 tsp per day).
It does not seem to be stimulating the same processes the potato and green banana starches do. Was your negative reaction to it similar to what you've experienced recently?
I hope you're doing better now. Lymph situation improved??

@Sushi - I think all the good work you've done with KDM must be working in your favour. It does seem like your reactions are similar - just milder. I hope your improvements continue in a gentle snowballing fashion!
My lymph/fever symptoms resolved 100% by 3 weeks after ceasing all starch! What was difficult was that it had to run it's course, and the lymph pain were unfamiliar, and unrelenting! I have re-started at a much lower dose and so far symptoms are mild and manageable.

I'm experiencing benefits too - most notably with OI symptoms. On good days I'm able to be more active. There are jobs I usually leave for my husband (things that involve getting up high or down low) that I've found myself doing without hesitation....and with no negative consequences. Overall, I'm not needing to pace so aggressively to remain at the level of functioning I'm used to.

 

[Sushi]

@froufox ....
I'm experiencing benefits too - most notably with OI symptoms. On good days I'm able to be more active. There are jobs I usually leave for my husband (things that involve getting up high or down low) that I've found myself doing without hesitation....and with no negative consequences. Overall, I'm not needing to pace so aggressively to remain at the level of functioning I'm used to.

Pretty wild that a bit of potato starch can have this effect!

Best,
Sushi

 

[Gestalt]

@froufox - I've only been taking the Arabinex 5 days so far (at the recommended dose of about 2 tsp per day).
It does not seem to be stimulating the same processes the potato and green banana starches do. Was your negative reaction to it similar to what you've experienced recently?

Due to prompting from @Ripley I am also trying "larch arabinogalactan". I am taking about 30 grams a day which is close to 3 Tablespoons with no other pre/pro biotics to try and rule out confounding variables. The studies that researched this used doses in that range, counter to what the recommended dose on the label of the bottle says.

I have only been on it a few days, but already I can tell it is having quite a different effect than Resistant Starch from Potato Starch or Plantain Flour. I know this is very subjective but mentally I feel clearer. It seems to have a very positive energizing brain effect where as in contrast RS has merely a gut energizing like effect. I feel like I have more mental energy.

I also get no gas from this Larch pre-biotic which is nice compared to RS. My sleep is even deeper with the Larch than the RS and the quality of my dreams is improved compared to the RS as well. I have a more stable emotional presence in my dream and feel more present, a huge benefit.

Larch also has immuno modulating properties that may make it more effective than pure RS as it goes beyond just being a pre-biotic. http://www.dadamo.com/science_larch.htm

For those struggling with RS I would actually recommend Larch first, it seems to be a bit more gentle at least from my n=1 experience.

This seems to confirm the theory that different pre-biotic substrates feed different bacteria and thus have different effects. In the end a mix is probably the best, but trying them in isolation first makes for an interesting study.

Warning, it is more pricey and at 30grams a day will run you about $6 per day. But many people spend that much on a coffee from starbucks daily anyways. So well worth it in my opinion.

----------------
On a completely different note I have been thinking about the role of mucous and it's pre-biotic effect. I always have thought of excess mucous as a sign of a response the body is trying to protect itself form invasion by increasing the barrier to the outside world. However the body by producing excess mucous may also be trying to give a helping hand to the friendly microbes and increase their populations to assist in fighting an infection and supporting the body.

One of the main things I noticed when taking RS is a significant drop in mucous production in my nasal passages. Excess mucous production therefore may be a signal the body is lacking prebiotics as mucous itself acts as a prebiotic and may be trying to compensate!

Where things get all screwed up is people on ketogenic or VLC diets. I tried a ketogenic diet once and one of the nice benefits was again a clearing of the nasal passages of mucous. This however was NOT because my immune system was healthier or the state of my micrbiome was superior because on the whole I actually felt much worse. It was because my body was deprived of glycans from carbs that are necessary for mucous production. In a state of ketosis your body prioritizes glucose to support the brain at the expense of almost everything else. Many people on ketogenic diets thus report having dry mouth and eyes because now they are in a state of mucous deficiency because they are glycan deficient form lack of carbs.

I now believe that mucous acts as a contingency source of pre-biotic fuel for bacteria. However adequately giving the bacteria their preferred fuel source ie. prebiotics such as RS, Larch, Inulin, FOS,etc. then the body won't need to make as much mucous to support said bacteria and then it levels out it's production to ideal levels.

 

[xjhuez]

Due to prompting from @Ripley I am also trying "larch arabinogalactan".

Glad to hear it's working for you. Mine should be arriving Monday - looking forward to trying it.

Incidentally, which brand are you using?

 

[Gestalt]

Glad to hear it's working for you. Mine should be arriving Monday - looking forward to trying it.

Incidentally, which brand are you using?

Right now Larix because it's the cheapest for the most product: http://www.iherb.com/eclectic-institute-larix-12-oz-340-5-g/2867

I also bought Arabinex from Thorne to do a comparison. I shall try it tonight.
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Arabinex-3-5-oz-100-g/18737

 

[xjhuez]

Right now Larix because it's the cheapest for the most product: http://www.iherb.com/eclectic-institute-larix-12-oz-340-5-g/2867

I also bought Arabinex from Thorne to do a comparison. I shall try it tonight.
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Arabinex-3-5-oz-100-g/18737

Cool. I ordered the Food Science of Vermont powder.

Interesting ratios: