The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

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I wonder if taking probiotics with RS is wise....might the wrong bacteria like bifido begin blooming prematurely along their 20-30 foot journey to the large intestine?
My doc and I have been having this debate on RS. He is not a fan at all. We know I have a yeast problem so he is saying a prebiotic like MOS is much safer then trying to take rs with probiotics. I dunno the answer but..

I know this. When I take RS, (not just eat beans but make it a goal to get rs and use things like poato starch,) my plasma ammonia goes sky high. We've done two blood tests now where that was the only change I made because I was being stubborn and taking the interwebz as gold. I had gotten my ammonia down to normal by addressing my pathogens and using butyrate. I think the rs is effecting my pathogens so other then normal food consumption, I'm out of this lil experiment. I cannot be good for us to eat straight up potato starch like many are doing.

He's a phd and made me well, so I'm gonna just go with it. My gut tell me this RS thing is just gonna flip the switch to a yeast issue for many. I've started MOS with my custom probiotics, so well see how that goes.
 
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Ripley

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Sorry to hear that PathogenKiller. I've personally noticed a reduction in yeast symptoms since starting PS. Though, I haven't had my ammonia tested yet.

Resistant Starch and fermentable carbohydrates have been very well studied over the past few decades. There is available research on RS and ammonia. And ~95% of the observed potato starch n=1s reported on freetheanimal.com have been overwhelmingly positive.

For what it's worth, I found this study about pigs fed raw potato starch that had their ammonia measured.

Effect of resistant starch on net portal-drained viscera flux of glucose, volatile fatty acids, urea, and ammonia in growing pigs.
J van der Meulen, G C Bakker, J G Bakker, H de Visser, A W Jongbloed and H Everts
J ANIM SCI 1997, 75:2697-2704.


I also found this one for rats (referenced in the pigs RS study):

Specific effects of fermentable carbohydrates on blood urea flux and ammonia absorption in the rat cecum.
Rémésy C, Demigné C.
J Nutr. 1989 Apr;119(4):560-5.

Rats have some differences from pigs, so the results are bit different between the two species.
 
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Hanna

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My doc and I have been having this debate on RS. He is not a fan at all. We know I have a yeast problem so he is saying a prebiotic like MOS is much safer then trying to take rs with probiotics. I dunno the answer but..

I know this. When I take RS, (not just eat beans but make it a goal to get rs and use things like poato starch,) my plasma ammonia goes sky high. We've done two blood tests now where that was the only change I made because I was being stubborn and taking the interwebz as gold. I had gotten my ammonia down to normal by addressing my pathogens and using butyrate. I think the rs is effecting my pathogens so other then normal food consumption, I'm out of this lil experiment. I cannot be good for us to eat straight up potato starch like many are doing.

He's a phd and made me well, so I'm gonna just go with it. My gut tell me this RS thing is just gonna flip the switch to a yeast issue for many. I've started MOS with my custom probiotics, so well see how that goes.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but could u tell me what MOS is ?
 

MeSci

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Rats have some differences from pigs, so the results are bit different between the two species.
They both have a lot of differences from humans too! There are a plethora of differences between the digestive systems of different species. That's why dietary studies on animals do not accurately reflect what happens in other species.
 

MeSci

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@PathogenKiller @Ripley
Here is a study on humans, which found that resistant starch lowers fecal concentrations of ammonia:

Resistant starch lowers fecal concentrations of ammonia and phenols in humans
Maybe that's because people are accumulating it in blood and failing to excrete it. I did a quick search of the full text and found no references to serum, plasma or blood. Reminds me of the vast majority of studies on salt, which use values of sodium excreted in urine instead of blood levels, which could mean that the conclusions are wrong.
 
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All I can say is my ammonia was up over 65 while taking it so I decided to start listening to my doctor. I took it out and didnt add mos (mannanogliosacharides) no other changes.. Stayed on the diflucan and all herbs I'd been on. Ammonia low normal, I think it was 22. i know it was under 30. back where we'd got them down before I decided to "improve" my healing.

I think years of chasing cures makes it hard for me to not wanna try the latest and greatest, but it often seems to bite me in the ass. Ymmv.

Point to note I'm not dealing with garden variety candida. I've got some other saprophyte at pathogenic levels.
 

Hip

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Today is my third day of taking resistant starch. I am taking a dosage of one heaped teaspoon of Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch twice a day. This works out to a total of 18 grams of this unmodified potato starch a day (I measured one heaped teaspoon of this unmodified potato starch to be around 9 grams, and one heaped tablespoon comes to around 18 grams).

Since Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch is 80% resistant starch, that means by daily resistant starch dose at present is around 14 grams.

Ripley, do you know what daily dosage in grams of Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch we should be aiming for? I notice at the beginning of this thread that the dosage you advise to work up to is a total of 3 heaped tablespoons a day. But you do not say whether these are level or heaped tablespoon (Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch power in fact heaps pretty high on a spoon, so there is quite a difference between a level and a heaped tablespoon).


So far I have had no side effects from the resistant starch, expect perhaps for a very slight constipation on the first two days, but now I have already retuned to normal. No gas or bloating were experienced.

I am continuing to take my regular probiotic, which is Ultra Jarro-dophilus, which I have found works well for me. I take this probiotic at the same time as taking the unmodified potato starch.

I have a good feeling about this resistant starch treatment.
 
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adreno

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Ripley, do you know what daily dosage in grams of Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch we should be aiming for? I notice at the beginning of this thread that the dosage you advise to work up to is a total of 3 heaped tablespoons a day. But you do not say whether these are level or heaped tablespoon (Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch power in fact heaps pretty high on a spoon, so there is quite a difference between a level and a heaped tablespoon).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measuring_spoon
 

Ripley

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Ripley, do you know what daily dosage in grams of Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch we should be aiming for? I notice at the beginning of this thread that the dosage you advise to work up to is a total of 3 heaped tablespoons a day. But you do not say whether these are level or heaped tablespoon (Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch power in fact heaps pretty high on a spoon, so there is quite a difference between a level and a heaped tablespoon).

I don't believe I ever said "heaped". From Tim "Tatertot" Steele:
Tim 'Tatertot' Steele said:
You can also see the difficulty in pinpointing exact RS values. For instance, the label on Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch says 1TBS=12g. The range of RS in potato starch is 66.7 - 79.3%, therefore 1 TBS of potato starch should have somewhere between 8g and 9.5g. [LINK]
FYI: The remainder % of PS is water trapped inside the RS, waiting to burst open if heated.

As far as targeting goes:
Tim 'Tatertot' Steele said:
Most scientists used 20-50 grams RS per day in their human studies. Most recommendations are for the ingestion of 20-40g/day for maximum benefit, and there seems to be an upper limit of about 60g where it stops being effective, and a lower limit of about 20g where it has little effect.[LINK]
 

Hip

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OK, so I guess something around 45 grams of RS a day would be a powerful dose. That corresponds to 56 grams of Unmodified Potato Starch powder (since this contains 80% RS by weight).

That dose is roughly provided by three heaped tablespoons a day of unmodified potato starch (I have a digital milligram scales, and I measured one heaped tablespoon to hold 18 grams of Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch). This is the dose you stated at the beginning Ripley — but note these must be heaped tablespoons.
 

Ripley

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OK, so I guess something around 45 grams of RS a day would be a powerful dose. That corresponds to 56 grams of Unmodified Potato Starch powder (since this contains 80% RS by weight).

That dose is roughly provided by three heaped tablespoons a day of unmodified potato starch (I have a digital milligram scales, and I measured one heaped tablespoon to hold 18 grams of Bob's Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch). This is the dose you stated at the beginning Ripley — but note these must be heaped tablespoons.
Correct. The recommendation is just a rough target. I believe Tatertot recommends 3 to 4 Tbsp — and not measuring that closely because we are just trying to be in the general ball park.

For instance, somedays Richard Nikoley says he will take 3 Tbsp. Somedays only 2 Tbsp. Somedays 4 Tbsp, some days 5-6 Tbsp. Some days none. He believes that some days the gut-bugs just need a break (like a little fast). But, yes, I think if you are trying to maximize your benefit for 3-4 weeks you can measure it out if you want to. I don't really measure it.
 

Ripley

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All I can say is my ammonia was up over 65 while taking it so I decided to start listening to my doctor. I took it out and didnt add mos (mannanogliosacharides) no other changes.. Stayed on the diflucan and all herbs I'd been on. Ammonia low normal, I think it was 22. i know it was under 30. back where we'd got them down before I decided to "improve" my healing.

I think years of chasing cures makes it hard for me to not wanna try the latest and greatest, but it often seems to bite me in the ass. Ymmv.

Point to note I'm not dealing with garden variety candida. I've got some other saprophyte at pathogenic levels.
@PathogenKiller, just curious, but how many grams of protein do you eat per day? And what percent of your total calories is that?

I only ask because I'm reminded by something Richard Nikoley and Tim Steele have discovered from the many n=1 RS experiments that they have been privy to. In a recent podcast Tim Steele said that what they are beginning to notice is that the lower your carbohydrate intake is, the less benefit one gets from RS. So, the low carbers — particularly the very low carbers — seem to be the ones who don't get benefit from RS and they seem to be more likely to have some issues with it.

Interestingly, Tim said the people who seem to do the best with RS tend to be the ones who eat like the Perfect Health Diet, which has a good amount of fermentable carbs and RS in it.

Paul Jaminet, the author of the Perfect Health Diet, (who recommends ~10% calories from protein, ~30% calories from starchy "safe" carbs and the remainder calories as Fat) said this about ammonia toxicity in an article on protein and ammonia.

Paul Jaminet said:
Eating carbs does reduce protein metabolization. That enables high carbers to eat less protein, and does reduce ammonia toxicity. However, I think at normal levels of protein metabolism the ammonia is not really a problem — the liver can convert it to urea fairly well. It’s when you start getting up to very high protein intakes (so that you also have the problem of unabsorbed protein metabolized by gut bacteria releasing waste toxins) that toxicity from protein becomes a problem.[LINK]
If that's true, it's entirely conceivable that eating higher levels of protein (and therefore less carbs) with RS could lead to excess ammonia, since a more robust microflora, from the RS supplementation, would metabolize more unabsorbed protein and therefore produce more ammonia. If that's true, it might be a factor in why low carbers don't do as well with RS.

Of course, if you are eating low protein, and sufficient carbs, then that perhaps suggests liver clearance issues.

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor and nothing I say should be construed as medical advice.
 
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I'm talking serum ammonia. My liver is fine. great even. all my numbers are looking pretty good these days.. but the fatigue and brain fog was back.. so I wanted to deal with the ammonia. My theory is that given enough fuel my bugs exploit my metylation cycle defects to help get themselves on top of my immune system. I try to eat a moderate carb through whole food (not grain) diet and shoot for for 35-50g protein a day. a serving of which usually comes from dairy, beans, eggs and nuts. I do eat rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, squashes...

I cant do perfect health. I do very well with legumes and now that my yeast is under control and my gut is no longer a sieve I have no probs with dairy. YOu will pry dairy from my arthritic hands before Ill just give it up cause so and so says so. I missed eating it all those years and I have zero problem with it now. I buy it organic and pastured, Its a fine protein source for me along with beans, beef once a week, no more then 4 ounces and chicken a couple times a week. I eat 3 bags of mixed frozen veggies a day along with fresh, a cucumber with hummus, carrots with cashew dip.. and eat sauerkraut/kimchi 3-5x per week. I drink kefir and eat yogurt. I only eat berries and rarely.. I do eat a couple apples a week.
 

MeSci

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Interestingly, Tim said the people who seem to do the best with RS tend to be the ones who eat like the Perfect Health Diet, which has a good amount of fermentable carbs and RS in it.
Just noticed a discrepancy on the PHD diet page (which is maybe a better link than the homepage which is chat-and-video-based and takes ages to load for me!).

It says to avoid grains, but recommends rice, which is a grain. I also have corn/maize (which I think is problematic for some) and I think millet is safe, isn't it?
 

dmholmes

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PHD considers white rice a safe starch (low/no toxins) and a source of glucose.

Millet can be problematic, but I don't have the reason handy. I think like most things there is a spectrum with grains. White rice on the best end, wheat on the worst end, everything else in between.
 

MeSci

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PHD considers white rice a safe starch (low/no toxins) and a source of glucose.

Millet can be problematic, but I don't have the reason handy. I think like most things there is a spectrum with grains. White rice on the best end, wheat on the worst end, everything else in between.
Why would you want a source of glucose?