The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

SickOfSickness

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I am concerned about the potato starch. Eating raw potatoes is supposed to be bad.
http://www.nutritionmythbusters.com...ting-raw-potato-harmful-and-will-make-m-sick/
Can someone point me to sources saying it's ok?

Also because potatoes are one of the more contaminated vegetables, from pesticides used. I have not seen a source for organic unmodified potato starch. I would feel better with organic or "all natural".
 

Ripley

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When I try to take more, there's just too much gas and discomfort... insomnia too.
I'm not at all familiar with ME/CFS, but I know that normally insomnia is often triggered by a blood sugar issues. So, say your blood sugar gets too low, cortisol will kick in and raise your blood sugar. And it's impossible to sleep when cortisol is pumping through your body. It's an emergency countermeasure that your body takes to keep it alive. Taking too much Resistant Starch at once can cause hypoglycemia in some people. So, it might be wise to monitor your blood sugar for a few hours after taking RS if you suspect hypoglycemia/cortisol issues and perhaps eating something that might keep your blood sugar regulated better (some people swear by raw honey before bed).

I also realize I haven't been eating enough starch these past months: legumes, rice, potatoes, etc. I believe this has also contributed to my increased fatigue.
I ran into the same problem after I cut out grains and refined carbs — I didn't eat enough complex carbs to keep my gut flora properly fed. The Perfect Health Diet is where Tim Steele's research on Resistant Starch first got started, and the diet relies on healthy portions of complex carbs that contain some Resistant Starch and fermentable carbs to support a healthy immune system and a healthy gut barrier.

http://humanfoodproject.com/sorry-low-carbers-your-microbiome-is-just-not-that-into-you/

Basically if you cut out refined carbs, you need to eat a lot of complex carbs just to get to a moderate carb level that feeds your gut flora.

Of course, fixing the gut is only one piece of the puzzle. Interestingly, Paul Jaminet the author of the Perfect Health Diet has an interesting post on chronic fatigue and research on its relation to viruses:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/08/retroviruses-and-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

At the very least, I would think improving gut flora is a step in the right direction.
 
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Ripley

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I am concerned about the potato starch. Eating raw potatoes is supposed to be bad.
http://www.nutritionmythbusters.com...ting-raw-potato-harmful-and-will-make-m-sick/
Can someone point me to sources saying it's ok?.
Solanine is the main concern with eating raw potatoes. It is very toxic. You would know if you ingested solanine because the back of your throat would burn and you would get quite sick in 6-12 hours after ingestion. But, solanine is almost always found near the skin of the potato and it happens to be water soluble. This is why boiling peeled and sliced potatoes tends to completely eliminate the solanine in potatoes.

Luckily, potato starch is made with peeled fresh potatoes, lots of water and sieves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch_production#Potato_starch_production

The solanine is washed away with all the potato nutrients in the process. All that is left behind is pure resistant starch. To my knowledge, of the hundred of n=1s who have consumed potato starch, none have experienced any solanine reactions.

Also because potatoes are one of the more contaminated vegetables, from pesticides used. I have not seen a source for organic unmodified potato starch. I would feel better with organic or "all natural".
I could be wrong, but I don't think pesticides penetrate the skin. The potatoes are peeled and the skins are discarded. And even if they did penetrate the skin, the pesticides would be washed away during the water-intensive starch-making process. Also, Bob's Red Mill is a very reputable company and if you read through the comments on freetheanimal.com, I believe the concerns on potato sourcing were answered by people who contacted the company directly.

There are other forms of resistant starch if you are still concerned
 
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SickOfSickness

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There are other forms of resistant starch if you are still concerned
Thank you very much for this answer and your original informative post.

I think I'll buy that potato starch.

FYI, I tried putting green bananas in my smoothie and hate the texture it adds. Next I looked for plantain powder and I didn't see any claiming to be raw.
 

anne_likes_red

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For anyone wanting organic, Frontier Natural Products has potato starch which is treated the same way as Bob's Red Mill and also has good feedback from some people using it to modify gut bacteria.
(I'm using Frontier but it's too early to determine any benefits yet.)
Anne.
 

Ripley

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FYI, I tried putting green bananas in my smoothie and hate the texture it adds. Next I looked for plantain powder and I didn't see any claiming to be raw.
Alternatively, you can also dehydrate your own green plantains in a dehydrator and make your own RS2 resistant starch chips. But, it probably doesn't end up being quite as pure since there will probably always be a little regular starch even in a green plantain — not that the purity matters that much for most people (unless they are a diabetic). I think it's good to get a variety of RS sources if it's easy.

In the original post I had mentioned Tapioca starch as an alternative, but after more experimentation, Tim Steele has clarified by saying:

Tim Steele said:
My conclusion is to NOT use tapioca starch. I don’t think the stuff we get in the US contains much RS. I think that real, unprocessed tapioca starch would be a good source of RS if you could confirm it’s content, since that’s not possible, I will abstain. If I lived in south america where tapioca starch was a staple and could confirm through BG testing or how it made me feel (fart), I’d use it in a heartbeat
 
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Paul Jaiment says candida feeds on ketones. I can't find any scientific basis for this. I'm a believer in resistant starch, but this comment needs backing.

Can anyone link me to studies that verify the ketone candida link?
 

Gestalt

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Ripley

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You can see a summary with linked studies in this post on my Candida thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ilms-theory-protocol.25472/page-2#post-394971
Correct. It's also based on a very basic principle in that Candida/fungus/yeast/protozoa are all eukaryotes and all eukaryotes have mitochondria. Mitochondria are very capable at absorbing energy from ketones. While the eukaryotes typically use starch/sugar as their main energy source in the modern diet, they will eventually adapt to ketones as their primary fuel source if deprived of starch/sugar for a few months — they are somewhat slow to adapt.

But, just to be clear — in case anyone is confused — consuming potato starch does not increase your carb consumption nor will it reduce any of the problematic ketones that might feed Candida. Potato starch is a pure resistant starch and you cannot extract any carbs or nutrients from it. It's no different than taking a powerful prebiotic — except that this powerful prebiotic happens to only cost $4/pound. If you have Candida, and in particular Candida that has adapted to ketones, you will need to eat more carbs as safe starches (potatoes, white rice, yams, sweet potatoes, taro) with carbs from those safe carbs equaling roughly 30% of total energy (yes, it's a lot of volume in starches). It seems counterintuitive, but I can tell you from personal experience that it does work very well.

From my own experience and research, Candida isn't able to use resistant starch directly as a fuel source. I suppose it's no impossible that Candida might find some indirect benefit when RS is fermented by the bacteria in the colon, but I personally had a very positive experience with 3-4 Tbsp/day of raw Potato Starch and found that RS was crucial to my own recovery from Candida.
 
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I've been using both rs and supplemental butyrate for a year now. I thank you for the studies but wish there were more. Makes sense based on my experience but I always like lots of science. I appreciate the info.
 

Lou

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I'm not at all familiar with ME/CFS,...[/quote]





Hi Ripley,

I am happy you came here, but may I ask what prompted you? You may have learned by now a great many things that help others do not work for us, much is mysterious about this disease.

But here's hoping what you've brought us is an exception. I ordered Bob's RS and Body Biotic a few days ago, look forward to giving it a trial.

Thanks again, especially for all the detailed links which added understanding why this approach may be fundamentally different.
 

Ripley

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I am happy you came here, but may I ask what prompted you? You may have learned by now a great many things that help others do not work for us, much is mysterious about this disease.
Lou. I came here about a year ago looking for help with methylation issues. At the time I was having reactions to methyl-b vitamins and this forum had people who were familiar with the protocols. However, I soon discovered that my problems were caused by Candida and a diet that was too low in carbs and too low in resistant starch (heavy metals were a factor too, but luckily I didn't need to take any methylation support, beyond food, to detox).

After researching Resistant Starch for months, responding to it so well, and seeing how well n=1s were responding to it, it's become apparent that anyone who is trying to restore gut flora needs Resistant Starch and fermentable carbohydrates to feed their beneficial gut flora. That's what they eat. There's just no way around that when you get right down to it. And the modern diet is basically devoid of sufficient levels of Resistant Starch. So, I wanted to make sure that model was brought to everyone's attention so that people who are willing to experiment with a simple everyday food could try it out and see if they too responded as well as everyone else has!
 
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Lou

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Is it too early to ask if any me/cfs'ers have had any luck with resistant starch?

This is my newest hope, that it will work for us and help with our gut issues.

Please keep us informed if you are trying potato starch.
 

Gestalt

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Is it too early to ask if any me/cfs'ers have had any luck with resistant starch?

This is my newest hope, that it will work for us and help with our gut issues.

Please keep us informed if you are trying potato starch.
I have ME/CFS albeit caused by Candida and am starting to take RS. Once I get up to full dose in a few weeks I will report back.
 
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@Lou I am. Too early to tell anything yet. :) I have a friend with CF) for whom the sleep benefits came after a few days, with vivid dreams. Then the dreams settled back to less than memorable but sleep benefits and blood glucose improvements have remained.
My sleep is already good but I'll report on any gut or other improvements (or not!) in due course. I'm off camping for a while so it will be a couple of weeks before I can report. Best of luck with your RS experiment. :)

NB I think, contrary to earlier discussions, the Frontier Organic may be cooked and therefore lower in resistant starch than the Bob's Red Mill unmodified starch. People seem to be getting conflicting info from reps on the telephone but after someone I know has spoken with the manufacturers of the product I believe BRM is probably the better way to go....especially if you're interested in keeping carbohydrate intake low - moderate and you want to be sure of getting a significant dose of RS.
Anne.
 

Crux

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Hi @Lou ;

I believe there's good reason for hope with resistant starch, ( both 2 and 3), for ME/CFS.

I'm beginning to feel better. It's been almost a month. ( I haven't been diagnosed with ME/CFS, but I fit the criteria.)

For folks with gut issues, I also recommend including the 'Prescript Assist' brand probiotic. Ripley suggested it, and many practitioners use it on their patients. I only started it yesterday, but my gut is already better. ( I was having trouble with pain, bloating, and flatulence from the potato starch.)

It's a little uncanny that one particular probiotic would work so well. I've tried many, plus, I've been fermenting foods for 30 years.

On other sites, people have reported having more energy, which I'm noticing too!
 

Hip

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"Prescript Assist" is a probiotic containing homeostatic soil organisms (HSO), aka soil-based organisms (SBO).

"Primal Defense" is another brand of HSO probiotic.

These HSO bacteria are spore-forming bacteria. There is some controversy about these. I have a jar of HSO probiotics, but I have not yet ventured to taking them.

Here is some info on HSO probiotics I posted on another forum a while ago:

Safety Issues and Benefits of Spore-Forming Probiotics

The basic concern is that unlike regular gut bacteria and probiotics, soil-based organisms are spore formers, and spores may be difficult to eradicate.

A good blog discussion on the safety issues of these spore-forming soil-based organism probiotics can be found here: Bacterial Soil Organisms – HSO’s, SO’s, SBO’s, etc. Some of the comments by "JINI" and others further down the above page are quite informative.

The following note of caution comes from Natasha Trenev:

"To summarize the research briefly, soil organisms (SO) are spore formers, so they make make good competitors for yeast, fungus and other pathogens. This is why so many people taking soil organisms will initially experience very favorable results.

However these spores are are extremely difficult to kill, surviving sterilants, disinfectants, acceleration forces, heat, pressure, radiation and many antibiotics. Strong antibiotics -- like Vancomycin -- can suppress certain spores. Spores are so persistent in the intestines that another round of germination may occur after the the drug is stopped.

Soil organisms can also adapt loose genetic material and incorporate it into their cellular structure - the ramifications of which are yet unknown. Various soil organisms can also produce harmful peptides, affecting hemoglobin in the blood.

It's important to keep in mind that virtually all antibiotic drugs were were initially developed from soil organisms and as antibiotics become more potent, they cause more damage to the host, not just in the immediate gut environment, but systematically as well. There are simply too many questions and unknowns to sanction the use of soil organisms for human consumption and one can certainly cannot qualify them as safe at this time
". Source: here


Long Term Safety Demonstrations

Though the long-term effects of soil-based organisms are generally unknown, the exception is Bacillus subtilis, which seem to be the only soil-based organism with over 1000 years of use (in the Japanese of culture natto fermentation).

Also, the Bacillus clausii spore-forming, soil-based organism has been used for 50 years in the European product Enterogermina.


Alpha Interferon Induction by Soil-Based Organism Probiotics

In this article: What are HSOs (Homeostatic Soil Organisms) Probiotics? it says: "HSOs stimulate the body to produce natural alpha-interferon. Alpha interferon is a potent immune system enhancer and a powerful inhibitor of viruses."

And all the blurb on Primal Defense probiotics talks about interferon alpha induction — but with no references that I could find to back up this statement.

Alpha interferon production is high desirable in ME/CFS.

I could not find any studies about this alpha interferon boosting effect of soil-based organisms, but this study: Characterization of Bacillus probiotics available for human use says: "in vivo, spores of Bacillus pumilus and Bacillus subtilis induced the proinflammatory cytokine TNF-alpha and the Th1 cytokine gamma interferon". But there is no mention of interferon alpha.

I would certainly be interested to know if any ME/CFS patients here have had good long term (after several years) benefits with HSO probiotics.
 

Ripley

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"Prescript Assist" is a probiotic containing homeostatic soil organisms (HSO), aka soil-based organisms (SBO).

"Primal Defense" is another brand of HSO probiotic.

These HSO bacteria are spore-forming bacteria. There is some controversy about these. I have a jar of HSO probiotics, but I have not yet ventured to taking them.

Here is some info on HSO probiotics I posted on another forum a while ago:
The concerns raised by Trevnev (who founded a company that sells competing lactic acid-based probiotics) are unfounded.

Here's an explanation by Chris Kresser, who uses SBOs regularly in his practice:

Chris Kresser said:
There is a lot of confusion about this topic. Jini Patel has raised concerns about soil-based organisms (SBOs) in this article, based on claims made by Natasha Trevnev, the founder of Natren (a company that sells lactic acid-based probiotics). Most of the objections raised in the article are either technically inaccurate or outdated by current research. It has become clear through DNA sequencing of the gut microbiota that the human gut has a makeup of bacteria similar to or already of SBO origin. From an evolutionary perspective, it's likely that we were exposed to SBOs to a much larger degree than we are now, due to the industrialization of agriculture and food distribution, and changes in soil quality and diversity.

The term "spore former" refers to microflora that can form spores that are biologically active, i.e. reproduce in the spore form, and are highly resistant to the environment and cause disease. Endospore formers, on the other hand, are biologically inactive and remain that way until environmental conditions allow resuming normal forms. Prescript Assist does have endospore formers, but they simply pass out of the system if they ever form in the gut of any mammal.

The Relman-Stanford group studies have shown that SBOs are more numerous in the gut than lactic acid microflora, and that the microflora resident in the healthy mucosa of the gut differ considerably from what is present in fecal material (which tends to have higher numbers of lactobacilli and bifidobacteria).

Finally, Prescript-Assist microflora are recognized Class 1 Etiological Agents, non-toxic, non-pathogenic, from independently maintained lines -- this is well documented in both of the Clinical Therapeutics Articles. More than a decade of use as a supplement has revealed no adverse effects and/or side-effects [including reportedly patients with impaired immune systems], as well as the initial demonstrations with repeated consumptions of doses amounting to 500X that recommended for ordinarily daily use with no ill effect.
I doubt you will hear of any problems with SBOs. They have an excellent track record.
 
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