The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[South]

"have had these symptoms for most of that time, it seems unlikely that they are due to an improvement stage, so how would one tell that a treatment is working?

I second this thought from MeSci.

Some of the symptoms being studied on this thread as being signs of improvement could also be signs of regression.

 

[Violeta]

You mean like Bentonite? Orally or transdermal? I know they have used clay minerals orally, in animals, for quite some time, to bind endotoxins. Bentonite does have some binding capacity at least in the animal GIT; in humans this might depend upon pH. The other questions include: how well would it disperse, does it bind and stay bound to the clay minerals, and what kind of binding efficiency does it have? So, orally, I know it has can bind to LPS, and I have seen numerous anecdotal reports of the effectiveness of Bentonite clay in reducing symptoms, but I don't know what precipitated these symptoms that were reportedly mitigated.

Using a foot bath with clay? I suppose this could have some effect, but I doubt you will find any relevant studies. I'm actually not sure what properties of the clay allow it to bind to LPS, but if it the "stuff" that has these binding properties reached the local tissues this has potential to have an effect because this is principally where the inflammatory effect is mediated, well and the liver. I don't have personal experience with clay minerals.

As for heavy metals, clay wouldn't be what I would choose. I wouldn't expect clay minerals to have any effect unless there is an organosulfur compound in there with some thiol groups. I think I would stick with chelation methods with a track record if you want to go that route, but I think your best bet is to see if you can correct the intestinal permeability so you are not recycling these and other toxins back and forth through your liver and GIT. I'm certain plenty on this forum have experienced the joys of enterohepatic circulation while having intestinal permeability. It's like the gift that keeps on giving, and I'm sure some don't even know what is happening. I cannot overstate the importance of keeping this stuff in the bowel and out of the blood and liver. This is true of any accumulated toxins, but particularly true for LPS because LPS WILL DISPROPORTIONATELY ELICIT AN IMMUNE/INFLAMMATORY RESPONSE IN THE LIVER, SPLEEN, LOCAL TISSUES, AND LYMPHATICS. It's the major immune responses outside the bowel, that might precipitate a systemic reaction, like a fever, but I expect this to be unusual. Proportionately there is more LPS in the GIT, but it is supposed to be in there in the GIT, in some quantities. If you can bind it in the GIT and thus reduce the percentage that can potentially make it to these sensitive tissues where the majority of the symptoms are initiated, go for it, but in order of priority the MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO IS TO REDUCE THE PERMEABILITY, This is where the RS is going to prove to be most useful, if done in conservatively.

I am talking about taking bentonite orally. There's a lot of information about it being used by humans, too. It is used for getting the toxins in the gut out of the body so that they don't circulate through your system. If you have leaky gut, you can still work on that issue, but removing as many toxins, acids, metals, with the feces can really help sidestep and/or alleviate symptoms.

The heavy metals that I'm talking about are the metals that can be released into the gut when busting the biofilm and cell walls of bacteria. Setting free heavy metals can dangerous.

I got out my book by Donna Pessin who uses clay in her protocol just to see if there is anything in taking clay that is contradictory to healing leaky gut, and I don't see any contraindications, except that if you have a bacterial infection, even taking clay can cause bloating and discomfort. In that case, she recommends taking colloidal silver for a few days, and then returning to taking clay. She says that clay will slowly remove toxins from the body, but that it doesn't permeate the body. Its benefits are found through what it does in the bowel.

I think it's good to keep symptoms at a minimum, if at all possible, and in finding a way to keep symptoms at a minimum, it might actually make it easier to pick up the speed at moving forward. I don't know what causes the headache pain, but if it's calcification or thick blood from increased fibrin due to extra LPS in the system, that's not good.

 

[Asklipia]

@Violeta
As for calcification, which is a concern, I have noticed today a patch of hardened skin on my finger peeling off, where I hold my pen.
This has happened before, when I was taking 45 mg MK-4 a day. It is for me a sign of an increase in Vitamin K2 leading to a reallocation of calcium.
Calcium could be also leaving the gut. A hypothesis you had mentioned before.

Keeping the symptoms to a minimum. Oh Yes!
We must keep in mind that probably they would be increasing over at least five days, if it takes that much for them to subside. Nasty.

 

[froufox]

I find green clay helpful and I have found gut formulas containing bentonite/charcoal helpful in the past too, i guess because they are helping with LPS, but I agree Violeta re these binders helping with the metals released in the gut. I have done a lot of chelation, but I have released more metals from my gut doing other gut treatments (eg MAF 314) than i ever did with chelation (as evidenced by stools smelling very strongly of metals), which i put down down to biofilms being broken. So i think at those times, clay etc could be very helpful.

I have continued to take very small amounts of PS (1/3-1/2 teaspoon) several days to a week apart each time (so only 4 doses so far!) and the last time i took it (2 days ago), I woke up with a severe sore throat the following day (yesterday) and have had the worst cold the last 2 days than Ive had for absolutely years. I'm sure the PS has contributed to this as i got a sore throat (but much milder) the day after the other times ive taken the PS, so clearly some kind of immune activation is going on. I very rarely get colds, ever since having ME (21yrs).... i can only remember getting one as bad as this 8 yrs ago after taking ALA (glutathione precursor). I'm hoping its a good thing :/ Ive also been taking CDS (previously known as MMS), which is an oxidant and can kill pathogens so that might be contributing to this recent change too.

 

[Vegas]

I agree with others that you provide a lot of useful info, which I appreciate. There is stuff there that I didn't know.

Just want to query some of the symptoms that you cite as being a result of treatments, as AFAIK they are also typical ME symptoms, and I certainly experience or have experienced most of them a lot of the time since becoming ill.

Examples:

• Mood lability
• Generalized achy sensation
• Localized lymphatic swelling, particularly in the legs
• Pain under the right or left rib cages
• Trouble sleeping
• "turning off" (my) mind
• Regulating temperature
• Intermittent Raynaud's symptoms
• Headaches

As I have been ill for 19 years, and have had these symptoms for most of that time, it seems unlikely that they are due to an improvement stage, so how would one tell that a treatment is working?

(I should add that I have already improved a great deal from my worst, thanks to a leaky-gut regime, so am asking partly on behalf of others.)

What? You are unconvinced by uncontrolled experimentation, with limited regard for bias and independent and dependent variables, guided by countless assumptions and heavily influenced by anecdotal observations. Shame on you for your skepticism.

Actually, you raise really a couple of the most important points.

Validity: What I have reported is so heavily reliant upon personal observation that anyone with the capability for independent analysis should assess the reliability of the data. I'm not one to make recommendations that will harm, as I generally know just how sensitive some of us can be. I suppose everyone needs to sift through the fallacious reasoning, generalizations, liberal interpretation of science and errant application of the scientific method, and ignorance and make their own judgments. Actually, I'm hoping others will fill in missing details, and disprove or rebut my own ideas for the sake of science.

Applicability: I constantly find myself learning new things and re-thinking ideas. I feel like the last year has brought me tantalizingly close to understanding the core pathophysiology, but I really cannot say how applicable these problems are to the ME/CFS population as a whole. I think the RS response will parallel some other parts of the redox-immune interface, which i believe may be predicted based upon a response to nutrients that intersect here, like 5-MTHF. Time will tell. If there is anything I have learned from going from where I was before to where I am today, it is that symptoms evolve, and one has to force themselves to look past their present condition and constantly challenge their assumptions. All humans struggle with this.

I'm certainly not attributing all these symptoms to a bacterial influence and endotoxemia, although I have learned the signature of endotoxins, there is data to suggest this is a problem, and I believe we are seeing this as a consequence of RS supplementation. Specific interference in the host metabolism created by various pathogens, not simply the effects of their endotoxins, is also likely involved. What I am clearly suggesting is that a pathogenic bacterial influence and its effects on the host is perpetuating this illness, and correcting this, in my view, has the greatest probability of success. I have been viewing this as broadly as I can, looking at this molecularly and trying to reconcile the ideas about ME/CFS pathophysiology that have already been proposed.

Obviously the cause of symptoms someone experiences are multifactorial. Symptoms can be caused by: a lack of particular nutrients and the biochemical processes these effect, an accumulation of toxins, suppression of the immune system, and those effects produced when immunocompetency is restored...and probably some others that I missed. I'll give you my reasoning about some of the symptoms when I get more time.

 

[Ripley]

@Violeta
As for calcification, which is a concern, I have noticed today a patch of hardened skin on my finger peeling off, where I hold my pen.
This has happened before, when I was taking 45 mg MK-4 a day. It is for me a sign of an increase in Vitamin K2 leading to a reallocation of calcium.
Calcium could be also leaving the gut. A hypothesis you had mentioned before.

I had a similar thought. Again, I don't have ME/CFS, but I have noticed since starting RS that my teeth are cleaner and my joints aren't as creaky.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta
As for calcification, which is a concern, I have noticed today a patch of hardened skin on my finger peeling off, where I hold my pen.
This has happened before, when I was taking 45 mg MK-4 a day. It is for me a sign of an increase in Vitamin K2 leading to a reallocation of calcium.
Calcium could be also leaving the gut. A hypothesis you had mentioned before.

Keeping the symptoms to a minimum. Oh Yes!
We must keep in mind that probably they would be increasing over at least five days, if it takes that much for them to subside. Nasty.

@Asklipia, would you mind giving a synopsis of your diet? I have been taking Thorne K2 the past week but a callus on my foot is still getting worse. It doesn't seem to bother me when I don't eat dairy, but I have started to include some dairy for the fat soluble vitamins. I don't know which direction to go in. Continue with the dairy and just keep adding Vitamin A (callus is probably a combination of Vitamin K2 and A deficiency), or cut out the dairy and just take those two vitamins until things seem to balance out.

And yes, it's about getting the calcium to go to the right place. I am wondering how many people here have had poor calcification of the teeth. And, I have been wondering about soft tissue calcification for a long time. It just hit me the other day that the lining of the gut might be calcified to an extent. Now I am wondering if the LPS slows down motility in the lymphatics by causing calcification there, too.

 

[MeSci]

And yes, it's about getting the calcium to go to the right place. I am wondering how many people here have had poor calcification of the teeth. And, I have been wondering about soft tissue calcification for a long time. It just hit me the other day that the lining of the gut might be calcified to an extent. Now I am wondering if the LPS slows down motility in the lymphatics by causing calcification there, too.

After two severe attacks of hyponatraemia and total medical idiocy in response to them, and having also suffered dental damage and a fracture between the two attacks, I reasoned that I was losing bone minerals in urine as well as sodium, so increased my salt intake and started taking bone mineral supplements. That seems to have done the trick. The mineral loss seems to be part of PEM, usually occurring 2-3 days after overexertion. I don't know the exact mechanism - if I did, I might be able to stop it from happening rather than having to keep topping up!

 

[Vegas]

[quote="have had these symptoms for most of that time, it seems unlikely that they are due to an improvement stage, so how would one tell that a treatment is working?

I second this thought from MeSci.

Some of the symptoms being studied on this thread as being signs of improvement could also be signs of regression.[/quote]

This is largely why I elected to take the time to share this information because I was concerned that many would not understand the "backlash" largely mediated by the immune response; I felt that I had, perhaps, more insight into this than anyone. At first though, I hadn't really thought about all the other consequential problems created by the resultant biochemical changes. Honestly, I didn't expect bioenergetics to be influenced so rapidly. This is going to create a lot more symptom variability, I think. Not a cop out, I still think some conclusions can be drawn. Actually, the symptomatic responses good and bad, and the rapidity of this, is what has me so excited. Some of these symptoms are going to turn people away, some people will simply not tolerate them, some will experience no effects, and many will perceive regression. While I believe many will mistake regression with transient symptomatic worsening, the potential for regression certainly exists. Major regression, though, I don't think is likely. I've rarely experienced any improvement without adverse accompanying symptoms, but that doesn't mean it cannot be done. Today, though, I believe that had I been able to more effectively address the intestinal integrity, my path would have been much more tolerable.

I think there is some self-experimentation some could purse if they are willing to do so, to help convince themselves about what is happening, but I'm not sure I want to recommend some of these things given the potential to do harm. I conducted my own "experiments" and found there to be reproducibility.

In addition to the wildly unscientific approach of symptom association, I think some objective data would be helpful. We could look specific inflammatory markers that have some sensitivity to LPS like IL6, 8, & 10 (going from memory so don't hold me to this) in those taking RS, but this is probably not going to provide any significant benefit without the specificity. Serum LPS may be of value, but timing may be important, and as I previously stated, the body will sequester much of the endotoxins in places where it is not going to do as much harm. In other words keeping it in the extracellular spaces and lymphatic system and away from the circulatory system. Honestly, I'll have to think if there is are any potential markers that may demonstrate both specificity and sensitivity. I saw the discussion of Leptin and think this is interesting, but I suspect it would only provide useful after there has been prolonged mobilization. Those will severe immunocompromised status never have the phagoycytic response to mobilize these endotoxins to any significant degree. This is immune activation is, however, likely to strengthen when bacterial counts of Bifidobacterial strains and some other commensal organisms rise.

Also, if we had some tangible data about the effects of RS on our individual microbiota we should be able to much better understand what is or might be happening and why. The reason I became fixated on Bifidobacteria is that the connections with ME/CFS were endless. I have only seen one guy's data, and he didn't apparently suffer from ME/CFS, so I don't know applicable this is, except for the fact that RS should have some predictable effects on the host regardless of the underlying disease process. RS is going to do what it would do in any human that have those species that can utilize this substrate or benefit from other organisms that can. Also, the results that I did see were consistent with what I predicted would happen many months before when I hypothesized that an imbalance in colonic microbiota was likely associated with lower bifidobacterial organisms (although I think the subspecies may be more important than total numbers) and this would coincide with an overabundance of proteobacteria, and other gram negative organisms. Of course, I didn't contemplate using RS to feed the other vital member of the infant microbiome, the clostridial butyrate-producing species. I focused on Bifidobacteria too exclusively.

It would be useful if others here would obtain before & after results to demonstrate the shifts in intestinal microbial organisms, but I don't know about the feasibility of this and unfortunately, from what I saw with that American Gut sample, it offered a very high level, taxonomic view, but this is certainly better than nothing. @Ripley & @Gestalt, does this project also allow for more detailed taxonomic information. Also, can you provide any examples from what you have read relating to the measurable changes in the composition of the microbiota. Should we expect increases in clostridial and bifidobacterial organisms and a decline in proteobacteria or do we only have a very small sample size? Any ME/CFS'rs involved in this project?

 

[Vegas]

I had a similar thought. Again, I don't have ME/CFS, but I have noticed since starting RS that my teeth are cleaner and my joints aren't as creaky.

And herein lies the problem, we are going to see many paradoxical responses. Your improvement may be due to enhanced sulfation. Look up glycosaminoglycans. My joints have been a bit creaky for the last year, seems to be some consequence of getting better.

 

[adreno]

@Vegas

uBiome might also be useful, though I never seen any of their reports. Anyone try it?

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas

uBiome might also be useful, though I never seen any of their reports. Anyone try it?

Hadn't heard of that, looks to be high level, but might be worth it. I just need to convince my wife that this is more important than saving to take the kids to Disney World. Although, I can say, I am a whole lot more optimistic about going back than before.

 

[Vegas]

After two severe attacks of hyponatraemia and total medical idiocy in response to them, and having also suffered dental damage and a fracture between the two attacks, I reasoned that I was losing bone minerals in urine as well as sodium, so increased my salt intake and started taking bone mineral supplements. That seems to have done the trick. The mineral loss seems to be part of PEM, usually occurring 2-3 days after overexertion. I don't know the exact mechanism - if I did, I might be able to stop it from happening rather than having to keep topping up!

I nearly completely stopped sweating in 2009. Just a few weeks before "the crash," figuratively speaking. I was riding with one of my friends and wondering why he was so drenched in sweat and I was barely sweating. Then, it dawned on me that my electrolytes were really messed up. Even the most elite athletes would have been sweating given the hot and humid conditions on that day. Salt quickly became my friend. Salt cravings are so much less frequent these days. Actually, I was thinking that the blood volume issues were there many years earlier; I always wondered why donating a pint of blood would nearly cause me to pass out, afterwards. This is not typical for someone my size. I have some ideas about the bone loss thing, and can you imagine, they are "bacterialcentric." Big surprise.

 

[MeSci]

And herein lies the problem, we are going to see many paradoxical responses. Your improvement may be due to enhanced sulfation. Look up glycosaminoglycans. My joints have been a bit creaky for the last year, seems to be some consequence of getting better.

Interesting. My joints were fine before I improved other things with the leaky-gut regime, but in the past few months I have had a bit of joint pain, mainly in one or both knees, and slight weakness in the knee joint(s) has sometimes caused me to stumble a little. But then I am 60. Maybe I am finally getting normal ageing symptoms. A trade-off?

Re your earlier message in which you say:

I've rarely experienced any improvement without adverse accompanying symptoms, but that doesn't mean it cannot be done.

I have had very little in the way of adverse symptoms while my ME symptoms have become milder - and some completely absent at times, in the approx 2 years since I started on my leaky-gut regime. Maybe this is because it has had such a gradual effect on the disease process.

 

[zzz0r]

Except adreno anyone else with CFS having good results on RS. I watch the thread and a lot of people are exchanging ideas but I do not see anyone mentioning moderate or major improvement...

 

[Violeta]

Interesting. My joints were fine before I improved other things with the leaky-gut regime, but in the past few months I have had a bit of joint pain, mainly in one or both knees, and slight weakness in the knee joint(s) has sometimes caused me to stumble a little. But then I am 60. Maybe I am finally getting normal ageing symptoms. A trade-off?

Re your earlier message in which you say:



I have had very little in the way of adverse symptoms while my ME symptoms have become milder - and some completely absent at times, in the approx 2 years since I started on my leaky-gut regime. Maybe this is because it has had such a gradual effect on the disease process.

What did your symptoms used to consist of?

And what did you do for leaky gut?

 

[thomas_3000]

@zzz0r I had some really good improvements but then I added Bimuno (GOS) in the mix and things kind of went downhill from there. I'm still using it, as things might shift with prolonged use. Research indicates GOS to be very helpful.

I have/had CFS, but it's not too bad at the moment. It's primarily the IBS-C that I'm annoyed about.

 

[Asklipia]

@Asklipia, would you mind giving a synopsis of your diet?

First one cup of home roasted coffee. One a day not more.
Breakfast = 3 eggs scrambled with a good pat of ghee 5 times a week, the other two times three lambs brains lightly covered in rice flour and cooked in ghee.

Around 11 am some yogurt or home-made kefir or a fruit.

Lunch = twice a week lamb, once a week lobster/shrimps/crab/oysters, once a week sardines/kingfish, once a week lambs liver, once a week chicken/pork/duck, once a week cod/other white fish.
With veggies and potatoes/sweet potatoes, rice.
Bone broth made from the bones when meat is cooked in the oven. Most of the recipes in water so we get the minerals from the stuff being cooked.
Sometimes a glass of wine (from a barrel, not a bottle) or Absinthe. Not more than twice a week, sometimes less.
Yes, it looks like Jaminet's PHD. I had arrived at this without reading his book though.

We stop eating at 5 pm. There is no dinner. After that, a good cup of tea with milk and palm sugar if necessary. On winter cold days, some pancakes see here.

No gluten. No grains apart from rice. No legumes. No soy. When we feel the need, some palm sugar or even some cane sugar in pancakes.
One difference with PHD is that there is no dinner. We could not possibly eat three times a day, this is already very nourishing. Also I feel we need time to rest the body from all this food processing. The is a circadian rhythm element no diet and even if it does not show in the ingredients, it is important.

The other difference with PHD is that there is absolutely no Fake Folate in that. Absolutely no processed ingredients. All spices are fresh and ground at home. Something bought like vinegar is tested with a pendulum to check the amount of Fake Folate. This is how I discovered that Fake Folate was present even on some raw ingredients, like some types of rice, even fresh vegetables.

I believe that Fake Folates destroy vitamin K by acting as anti-K, and that it messes up consequently Vitamin D. And calcium distribution.

I think that diet cured us. But there might still be improvement possible by tinkering with the bacterial composition in the gut, which I why I am ready to experiment with this.

I have been taking Thorne K2 the past week but a callus on my foot is still getting worse. It doesn't seem to bother me when I don't eat dairy, but I have started to include some dairy for the fat soluble vitamins. I don't know which direction to go in. Continue with the dairy and just keep adding Vitamin A (callus is probably a combination of Vitamin K2 and A deficiency), or cut out the dairy and just take those two vitamins until things seem to balance out.

On my experience if taking K2 (as MK-4) the calluses go away.
- IF there is really MK-4 in the supplement I take;
- IF I am not neutralizing this K2 with Fake Folate. This Fake Folate could be present in the supplement itself, generally the capsule, but I have seen it in the powder itself! Try to open the capsule and sprinkle the K2 powder on a small piece of your food. Tasteless. Careful it is very light-sensitive, don't linger.
- Because K2 is a glutamate mopper, and that these Fake Folates are extremely addictive, one tends to just increase the dose of Fake Folates when taking K2! This of course makes you feel a bit (or more) sick, hence people who cannot tolerate K2 because it creates this fight inside their body. It of course can neutralize all good effects you could get by taking your K2.

As to A and D and K2, I now think that they should not be supplemented. Maybe because we feel fine and there is no urgency! Still I find supplementation dangerous, having tested with my pendulum supplements containing very high levels of Fake Folates. Since this is a drug to make you buy more, it is logical that it would be put in there too.
For Vitamin A, nothing like liver. If I were very sick, I would buy a nice lamb's liver and cut it up in small pieces, which I would freeze and eat raw with a bit of salt maybe piece by piece once a day.
Vitamin D = it gets much better on that front if you stop destroying it with Anti-K. Sunbathing is the answer.
Vitamin K2 = in organs and now it seems I have stumbled on a way to make more internally from just a coffeespoon of PS!!

Now I am wondering if the LPS slows down motility in the lymphatics by causing calcification there, too.

Interesting. I'll think about this later.

Lots of good wishes,
Asklipia
FFP

 

[Ripley]

It would be useful if others here would obtain before & after results to demonstrate the shifts in intestinal microbial organisms, but I don't know about the feasibility of this and unfortunately, from what I saw with that American Gut sample, it offered a very high level, taxonomic view, but this is certainly better than nothing. @Ripley & @Gestalt, does this project also allow for more detailed taxonomic information.

See the "Bonus" section of my original post, where I said:

BONUS:

Consider helping the research on Resistant Starch by submitting a sample to the American Gut Project before and after your own n=1 experiments with Resistant Starch and sharing those results publicly (either here and/or at Free The Animal). You can order a few AGP tests for a discount. An even better test is the Metametrix/GDX GI Fx Stool test for a complete profile. Very few people have ever documented such a change, and Dr. Grace will assist you if you are interested.

I doubt many people did it, since it's pretty expensive.

Also, I wonder how accurate stool testing is. The Stanford-Relman lab (and someone else too, though I can't remember at the moment) showed that fecal flora tends to be different from mucosal flora. I guess one is what's in the gut and the other is what's coming out of the gut. Though, I suppose what's coming out of the gut may be a bit indicative of what's in the gut (since that's where it came from). Still, it's not a perfect snapshot.

 

[Asklipia]

EDIT : I saw I had written "butter" when describing my diet. Six months ago we had a problem obtaining the butter we wanted and eventually ordered it in big quantities to make sure we had a supply. We made ghee out of it to keep it. Ghee instead of butter proved even better. We could feel an extra improvement from that.