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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Maybe you are able to convert it since you're taking a probiotic. I don't know why they put k1 in there.
     
  3. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I take the thorne K2 (as MK4) drops (1 drop per day). Some people seem to get heart palpitations after a few weeks of too much MK-7 supplementation, and that kind of freaks me out, so I just stick to MK-4 for now. But, I've definitely noticed improved K2 status since doing PS. Teeth are very smooth and plaque comes off of the gumline extremely easily right now.
     
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  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    http://iai.asm.org/content/79/2/548.full

    Lipoprotein a from gram negative and gram positive bacteria might be something to take into consideration, too.

    Here we give a general overview of lipoprotein biogenesis and highlight examples of the roles of lipoproteins in bacterial disease caused by a selection of medically relevant Gram-negative and Gram-positive pathogens: Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Streptococcus pneumoniae, Borrelia burgdorferi, and Neisseria meningitidis. Lipoproteins have been shown to play key roles in adhesion to host cells, modulation of inflammatory processes, and translocation of virulence factors into host cells.

    I suppose, though, anything that deals with LPS would also be dealing LPa.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  5. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Wow, fundamental changes are taking place. My hats off to @Ripley for bringing this to the forum, @Gestalt for introducing this to me, and everyone else for sharing their ideas and experiences. The last couple of days have given me a number of new insights into what is happening, which is making me re-think the timetable for recovery.
     
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  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    This study shows that it improves insulin sensitivity.

    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/9/e147.full
     
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Taking the RS earlier (5 hours before bed) and then taking a detox bath at night, is bringing some good changes--better sleep, more energy.....

    Sushi
     
  8. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    @Sushi - what does your detox bath entail? Happy you're seeing improvements! :thumbsup:

    Earlier is working much better for me too. Mid afternoon seems to be my sweet spot.

    I'm still getting some lymphatic symptoms though and a vague swimming sensation in my head... It feels like my husband is driving three times the speed limit when he's doing 50 km o_O.
    So I've decreased the dose to 1 tsp PS and 1 tsp green banana flour. I think I need to take low doses a while yet.
     
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  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Anne, how do you like the green banana flour?
     
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    This bit of information about LPS that I found at Wikipedia is very interesting.

    The innate immune response to LPS, however, is not synonymous with pathogenicity, or the ability to cause disease. In fact, the innate immune response is triggered purely by LPS.

    So it's not as if we are dealing with a pathogen when we are talking about LPS, simply the immune response that it causes.

    Are the immune system responders microglia in the brain and macrophages elsewhere? I read a study that says when microglia and macrophages come in contact with LPS, basal Ca2+ is chronically elevated, and there is an LPS induced release of certain cytokines and chemokines.

    At that point, would you think the microglia and macrophages start the soft tissue calcification process? Perhaps the lining of our gut is calcified!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
    Asklipia likes this.
  11. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I lowered my dose too, and will slowly build up again--also taking 1 tsp at the moment.

    Detox bath? Lately I've been throwing everything in--2 cups epsom salt, 1/2 cup sea salt, 1/2 cup aluminum-free baking soda and 1/2 apple cider vinegar. (read somewhere to put vinegar in and figured it wouldn't hurt!) :lol:

    Sushi
     
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  12. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Well @Violeta, Thank you for this. I could not sleep last night for all the implications.
    I think you are absolutely on the right track.

    For the sake of convenience let's call (in your honour and as a wink to Weston Price's Factor X) "Factor V" the strain(s) of bacteria responsible for producing K2 from K1.

    Supposing that a body gets depleted of "Factor V" because they get killed off (antibiotics, competing bacteria, radiation, halides as in disinfectants, invisible supplementation by enriched-food etc...) the end result would be not enough K2 but also too much K1.

    This throws a new light on @Freddd 's hypothesis of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency.
    All along I have been warning about Fake Folate Poisoning and had found we were immensely better by taking K2.
    Could this be the link?
    Lack of K2 and excess of K1 due to low levels of "Factor V"?

    Even vegetarian cultures like Hindu brahmanistic cultures warn of the danger of excess folate.
    In theory all Hindus should fast twice a month on Ekadasi day from age 8 to age 85. This fast is a short one (24 hours maximum), and excludes grains and legumes. A small portion of fruit and dairy is possible, you should not feel in the least uncomfortable. Some people say the fast should be stricter than this, but the mythological stories that accompany the fast and that you are supposed to repeat at that time so that you understand better and concentrate on what you are doing, tell of the paramount importance of avoiding grains and legumes. They do not tell of other foods, and in fact they describe in veiled terms what happens to you if you eat grains and legumes on that day : they turn into worms in your stomach and invade you. The virtuous guys who observe the fast are called King Golden=Sunbright and Queen Crepuscule. They get into trouble because no-one dies in their kingdom. Their names, as well as the fact that there are specific hours to break the fast, suggest an implication of ultradian and circadian rhythms in this. The moon calendar dates for this fast (some other fasts rely exclusively on moon, but some others on sun calendar dates) also suggest implication of circalunar rhythms, very important for the state of melatonin production.

    Intermittent fasting as a way to replenish "Factor V". Maybe?
    It could be helped by playing with the phases of the moon maybe? Not an expensive supplement.
    I have decided to do that fast from next time (around 12th March) to see if I can boost the good results.

    Sorry if all this seems too far fetched, but the mind is boggling at the moment :balloons::):balloons: I just hope that someone more qualified than me will make sense of this.
    Good luck!
    Asklipia
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
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  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Same here for the timing and the swimming sensation in the head, which I believe for me is linked to a decrease in inflammation there.
    Very marked results just on 1 teaspoon yesterday (this is the third day, the two first days we only took half a teapoon). Husband slept like a log on the same dose with many dreams while I considered as many implications of "Factor V" as I could all night long. Eventually slept deeply too from 1 am to 7 am.

    Bananas = I have noticed in the past a problem eating green organic bananas. They must have been grown on former non-organic soil treated with methyl bromide. That crap must stay for years in the soil, or maybe they were not organic after all :(. Big halide detox (blurry vision, thyroid pain, cold to the marrow etc...). Could it be that RS helps halide detox in a big way? Which would account for some of the unpleasant side-effects even at very low doses.

    While I was staying wide awake playing with all these beautiful puzzle parts, I noticed a very slight alteration to my body smell : a very slight fresh bread smell, maybe a sign of increased yeast activity, but it could also be something else, as it was vaguely similar to typhoid smell. I suppose the overwhelming majority here has no idea of what typhoid smells like, but it has a distinct smell which was part of the tropical doctor's diagnostic tool box 50 years ago. Just to show you that I am not totally crazy as a result of the two full teaspoons of Potato Starch ingested so far in this experiment, here is a validation of what I just wrote.
    It could be that PS is encouraging not a yeast but a bacterium. Of the Salmonella kind? Or other.

    The hunt for "Factor V" is of paramount importance I think.
     
    Violeta likes this.
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    The more I think about my negative reaction symptoms, the more I believe at least some of them are related to histamine. Perhaps I have an imbalance of histamine producing vs degrading strains, and so RS (and fermented foods) worsens this ratio. I will focus on providing only histamine reducing strains for the time being. Does anyone know of a definitive list of histamine producing/degrading strains?

    AFAIK, bifido strains are degrading, also some LAB strains like plantarum. Even some bacillus strains are histamine producing. Interestingly, the strains predominant in infant are histamine degrading, so maybe I need to focus on rebuilding my "infant gut". Perhaps an enema with this probiotic and some RS might be worth a try.

    It is discussed in this thread:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/rethinking-probiotics.24643/
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  15. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Interesting.
    However in that thread L. plantarum is on both lists, as increasing or degrading histamine. Maybe due to different types? Or maybe this is something which is not easy to determine, because it would depend on a lot of other factors.

    What about the availability of RS as one of those factors?
    This is raising more questions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    You're right, it is on both lists, I missed that. I'm avoiding it then, until we know more.
     
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    One more neat thing about K2 is that it seems to be able to undo the harm caused by the initial deficiency.

    Here's some info from a study about LPS causing calcium to enter immune system cells.
    BAPTA (calcium chelator) restored signaling efficacy and strongly attenuated the LPS induced release of NO and certain cytokines and chemokines.
    So I am thinking that the ability of K2 to in the first place prevent entrance of calcium into macrophages and microglial cells, but also chelate calcium from cells that already have elevated Ca2+, should reduce the release of NO and certain cytokines and chemokines. In other words, it should reduce inflammation.

    However, I am wondering if when you introduce it to your diet and also start production of it in the gut by taking probiotics and greens that contain K1, you will experience PAIN! Probably.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Yes, it does bring pain. In my experience. Not a pain that is not justified by an external event. It brings pain in the sense that you suffer more from whatever is wrong, and for a longer time.

    BUT, at the same time, a lot of things get fixed so there are less reasons to suffer and in fact you suffer less.
    I don't know if I manage to make myself clear.
    This is why I think it is related to the opioid thing, see an old post here.
     
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Lactate, histamine, endoxtoxins, yeast...why does this have to be so difficult...sigh.
     
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    That's funny that you were up late thinking about the implications, because I was, too.

    I've been having this problem lately where I remember small pieces of information, but can't remember the whole thing or where I read it, and it just about drives me crazy.

    I found two places that say K1 is made into K2 by lactic acid bacteria. I don't know if that's the bacteria in Natto, though. I also don't know yet if lactic acid bacteria in our guts causes enough conversion of K1 to K2, but from my experience of being vegan for many years and eating a lot of greens, none of them cultured, and seeing my health become worse and worse, I do not feel the need to eat a lot of greens, even though it is politically correct right now.
    And, when I do eat greens now, I am going to eat most of them cultured. I read your messages about Fake folate poisoning, but I want to go back and read them again.

    One of the best things that I've gotten from the information on this thread and back on the sulfite/sulfate thread at the methylation forum is that if you restore the bacteria in your gut, and eat a variety of nutritional food, you won't need to worry about micromanaging supplements.

    I did remember, too, that for people with immune system issues it's important to make sure you get enough Vitamin A along with the K2.

    Take care,
    Violeta
     
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