The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Ripley]

Pysllium husks powder is what I have.

Do be careful with Pysllium and RS. Together they can form quite a gummy paste and can promote some blockage in the intestines. You should only use very tiny amounts of Pysllium with RS — and, personally, I would only use it occasionally. I know Dr. Grace/BG promotes it, but just be careful with it.

Most of the time you can probably just take RS with some fibrous foods and achieve similar results.

 

[South]

@Hip and @Ripley Sorry about the name confusion earlier! And thanks for all the interesting info on this thread. Maybe people with small intestine issues like me have some options after all.

 

[Violeta]

Is that the seeds, husks or powder?

Also is resistant starch from corn any good?

@Violeta What condition is caused by klebsiella ?

There's a forum for ankylosing spondylitis that talks about klebsiella being the cause. Please forgive me if I spelled it wrong

 

[Ripley]

There's a forum for ankylosing spondylitis that talks about klebsiella being the cause. Please forgive me if I spelled it wrong

Hmm, and this guy cured his Ankylosing Spondylitis by eating lots of "safe starches" on the PHD:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2014/01/curing-ankylosing-spondylitis/

AS is probably an infectious condition caused by a pathogenic gut flora. Improved immune function and remodeling of the gut microbiome ought to be able to work a cure.

Steven experimented with a no-starch diet, but had better results on something more PHD like. As we’ve discussed, eating carbs is important for formation of the intestinal mucosal barrier and for proper immune function. A very low-carb diet often delivers short-term relief by starving pathogens, but it doesn’t support a probiotic gut flora and can bring long-term problems from suppressed immunity and impaired gut barrier integrity. That often leads to food sensitivities like those Steven suffered from. It’s better to obtain sufficient dietary carbohydrates to support a healthy gut. White rice is often one of the easier carbs to start with.

Chalk another one up for the PHD.

 

[adreno]

Pure corn (maize) is pretty low in RS. Cooking and cooling maize can result in RS3 (such as tortillas, for instance). I believe that's pretty much the gist to the manufactured Hi-Maize starch (available from King Arthur Flour) — which is 60% RS and 40% glycemic/digestible starch. However, getting some variety of RS sources can be a good thing.

But corn is to be avoided on the PHD.

 

[Sasha]

I assume it helps to turn over every once in awhile otherwise the RS would probably just settle to one side of the colon

Impressed that you could find a smiley face to illustrate it so perfectly!

 

[Sasha]

Do be careful with Pysllium and RS. Together they can form quite a gummy paste and can promote some blockage in the intestines. You should only use very tiny amounts of Pysllium with RS — and, personally, I would only use it occasionally. I know Dr. Grace/BG promotes it, but just be careful with it.

Most of the time you can probably just take RS with some fibrous foods and achieve similar results.

I've been taking 4tbsp RS and 1tbsp psyllium powder, mixed together - I wonder if that's too much? I've been drinking lots of water with each dose and taking about 6 or 7 divided doses a day, mostly.

 

[Ripley]

I've been taking 4tbsp RS and 1tbsp psyllium powder, mixed together - I wonder if that's too much? I've been drinking lots of water with each dose and taking about 6 or 7 divided doses a day, mostly.

That's the Dr. Grace/BG approach, and I'm sure it's fine. I just wouldn't do more than that. And if anyone has a tendency towards constipation, just be careful with it.

As Dr. Grace/BG clarified:

The max I've used is ONE Tbs Psyllium so I edited. I agree. There's a threshold for what the bowel can tolerate plus lots of water is necessary. We don't want bowel blockages.

 

[Ripley]

I've been drinking lots of water with each dose and taking about 6 or 7 divided doses a day, mostly.

Just a suggestion, but it turns out that spreading the dose throughout the day isn't that useful in terms of fermentation in the colon. While the psyllium will in theory help it extend further, the problem is that the bacteria at the proximal end of the large intestine are so hungry, they will instantly ferment whatever appears before them. So, if you only take 2 teaspoons of PS at a time, those proximal-end gut bugs will eat it up before it has a chance to pass the proximal end of the large intestine. Interestingly, that is just the norm in most Western diets.

So, even with Psyllium added, you need to take a dose of PS that overwhelms the bacteria at the proximal end of the large intestine, so that the RS moves past them towards the distal end, where you really need it for SCFAs to be produced. That's why the enema approach is believed to be so effective (few people have tried it, besides Spanish Caravan). It delivers the PS where it needs to go and instantly starts SCFA production.

For those who don't do retention enemas, we need to literally flood our large intestines with PS in order to get a portion of it to reach the colon. So, that means a minimum of 2 Tbsp at a time, or "bolus" doses of 4 or more Tbsp at one time if you want a portion of it to get to the colon. I've never done more than 4 Tbsp at a time, but I can feel the SCFAs turn on, like a power station, when I do.

So, there's a big difference between fermenting at the proximal end and fermenting towards the colon. You still get some benefit even if you are only fermenting near the proximal end, but not nearly as much. So, flooding the whole intestine with RS is sort of necessary. From what Spanish Caravan says, it sounds like the enema (which he only does once or twice a week) creates more SCFAs than even a bolus dose does.

But, keep in mind that this does not mean that you should never take less than 2 Tbsp at a time. I still take less than 2 Tbsp/dose routinely. Not every dose of PS has to reach the colon. But, I think 1Tbsp of PS is probably the minimum one should take at one time for it to be effective. And larger doses is something you'll definitely want to rotate into your routine.

Once you know you can tolerate at least 2 Tbsp in one day, that's a good sign that you should be able to take 2 Tbsp all at once. And occasionally, try a 4 Tbsp "bolus" dose just for good measure.

-- Also, don't chug bolus doses — it won't feel very good. EDIT: In other words, you don't have to swallow 4 Tbsp in one gulp. You can spread it out over a few minutes if you want.

 

[Ripley]

To clarify, here's what Tim Steele does when asked about his dosing:

Tim Steele // DECEMBER 11, 2013 4:29 PM If I was going to do multiple drinks like that, and I do sometimes, I'll use 1-2TBS of potato starch. If I just do one drink per day, i use 2-4TBS.

12TBS a day would be overkill I think, but not harmful. I think you would just pass most of it without fermenting it at all, but you could certainly ferment 1-2TBS at a time if taken several hours apart.

Hope that clears it up!

So, for best results, I would mix it up like Tim Steele does — at least 1 Tbsp at one time (once you know you can tolerate PS).

When I told people to go slowly, it was mainly to repeat what Chris Kresser said, to be sure that people didn't have adverse reactions. But, once you know you can tolerate 2 Tbsp in one day, I think it's pretty safe to start experimenting with larger doses — and letting your body guide you.

At times your body will start to get unbalanced (lots of gas, etc) and in those cases it's just best to stop for two days and let the ecosystem in your gut balance itself out. Sometimes 2 days on and 2 days off, with those larger doses, can help more than lots of smaller doses.

 

[Ripley]

But corn is to be avoided on the PHD.

That's true. It contains some toxins. The occasional corn on the cob, is considered to be "a minor transgression". It's the corn oils and refined corn products that you need to watch out for. For a relatively healthy person, the occasional use of it would probably be ok. But, for those with gut issues (everyone here) I'd avoid Hi-Maize.

Plantain flour is the next best option for those seeking an alternative to PS. It's not as strong as PS in terms of RS, but so long as you've tested it to make sure it doesn't really spike your blood sugar, plantain flour is probably the next best alternative. If you don't have a glucometer, you can guess its effectiveness by feeling if you are getting normal levels of airy gas (fermentation) and that the solution generally sinks to the bottom of the glass after mixing in water.

 

[Abha]

I'm using Kockens Potatismjol from Ocado/Waitrose:

http://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Kockens-Potatismjol--Potato-Flour/79101011?from=search&tags&param=potato flour&parentContainer=SEARCHpotato flour_SHELFVIEW

I'm convinced it's the same stuff - sinks to the bottom in water after mixing, 80g carbs per 100g, and some Swedish guy commenting on Free the Animal wrote to the manufacturer and it seems to be the same process as Bob's Red Mill.

Hi Sasha,
Thanks for your reply(another link)...I have just checked again on the ocado link that you provided.The minimum order is 40£....not cheap!Then there is postage on top of that.I'm still looking for a supplier in UK...or online providing it is not so expensive..Has anyone found such a supplier!....Thanks..

 

[Ripley]

I'm still looking for a supplier in UK...or online providing it is not so expensive..Has anyone found such a supplier!....Thanks..

You might want to experiment with Infinity Foods potato flour (starch) from Naturallygoodfood.co.uk. Sounds like it might work.

 

[Abha]

You might want to experiment with Infinity Foods potato flour (starch) from Naturallygoodfood.co.uk. Sounds like it might work.

Thanks Ripley...I have just checked that and it appears that they charge £14.50/per parcel where I live in UK.It may be a lot cheaper to make this product!..Thanks anyway...

 

[Sasha]

Just a suggestion, but it turns out that spreading the dose throughout the day isn't that useful in terms of fermentation in the colon. While the psyllium will in theory help it extend further, the problem is that the bacteria at the proximal end of the large intestine are so hungry, they will instantly ferment whatever appears before them. So, if you only take 2 teaspoons of PS at a time, those proximal-end gut bugs will eat it up before it has a chance to pass the proximal end of the large intestine. Interestingly, that is just the norm in most Western diets.

So, even with Psyllium added, you need to take a dose of PS that overwhelms the bacteria at the proximal end of the large intestine, so that the RS moves past them towards the distal end, where you really need it for SCFAs to be produced. That's why the enema approach is believed to be so effective (few people have tried it, besides Spanish Caravan). It delivers the PS where it needs to go and instantly starts SCFA production.

For those who don't do retention enemas, we need to literally flood our large intestines with PS in order to get a portion of it to reach the colon. So, that means a minimum of 2 Tbsp at a time, or "bolus" doses of 4 or more Tbsp at one time if you want a portion of it to get to the colon. I've never done more than 4 Tbsp at a time, but I can feel the SCFAs turn on, like a power station, when I do.

So, there's a big difference between fermenting at the proximal end and fermenting towards the colon. You still get some benefit even if you are only fermenting near the proximal end, but not nearly as much. So, flooding the whole intestine with RS is sort of necessary. From what Spanish Caravan says, it sounds like the enema (which he only does once or twice a week) creates more SCFAs than even a bolus dose does.

But, keep in mind that this does not mean that you should never take less than 2 Tbsp at a time. I still take less than 2 Tbsp/dose routinely. Not every dose of PS has to reach the colon. But, I think 1Tbsp of PS is probably the minimum one should take at one time for it to be effective. And larger doses is something you'll definitely want to rotate into your routine.

Once you know you can tolerate at least 2 Tbsp in one day, that's a good sign that you should be able to take 2 Tbsp all at once. And occasionally, try a 4 Tbsp "bolus" dose just for good measure.

-- Also, don't chug bolus doses — it won't feel very good.

Argh, thanks, Ripley - it sounds as though I've been doing this wrong. I'd read about the psyllium helping the RS get towards the distal end of the colon and thought that that would be sufficient. I find it quite difficult to swallow large amounts of fluid in one go (a lifelong thing) and because of the psyllium, I'd been reducing the dose to make sure that the water that I could swallow would be enough to stop the psyllium from causing blockages.

So today I've left the pysllium out and took 2 tbsp of the potato starch in one go. I could easily do 4 tbsp of that in water in one go.

But when you say, 'don't chug a bolus dose', what do you mean? You had just said to try a bolus dose - what am I missing?

 

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha,
Thanks for your reply(another link)...I have just checked again on the ocado link that you provided.The minimum order is 40£....not cheap!Then there is postage on top of that.I'm still looking for a supplier in UK...or online providing it is not so expensive..Has anyone found such a supplier!....Thanks..

True, but it's a grocery delivery service like Tesco or Sainsbury's do so you could just get your weekly shop from Ocado on that occasion and include the potato flour. The delivery fee isn't 'postage' as such - you're paying their delivery van to bring it to your door during a one-hour slot that you specify. They do a price-match thing with Tesco so although Waitrose do stock some pricey stuff, you can order your Andrex toilet roll and other ordinary groceries and not be spending any extra.

BTW, they also sell organic bone broth (very paleo!) in the form of Laverstoke Park beef stock and lamb stock.

 

[Ripley]

Argh, thanks, Ripley - it sounds as though I've been doing this wrong.

Don't worry about it. You were still getting some benefit with smaller doses. Keep in mind that most Western diets only give 3-5g of RS in a single day. So, you were way beyond that even with lots of tiny doses. And if they weren't too far apart, I'm sure some made its way past the proximal end since the proximal critters would have still been busy from the previous ingestion. Don't stress. It's not a big deal.

But when you say, 'don't chug a bolus dose', what do you mean? You had just said to try a bolus dose - what am I missing?

Well, the goal of a bolus dose is to take 4 or more Tbsp in one sitting. It's a lot of starch going down at once so some people like to take it with extra water to flush it down the hatch, and I just meant don't try to swallow tons and tons of water in one or two large gulps. There's no rush to get it down as long as you get it all down within a few minutes.

 

[Abha]

True, but it's a grocery delivery service like Tesco or Sainsbury's do so you could just get your weekly shop from Ocado on that occasion and include the potato flour. The delivery fee isn't 'postage' as such - you're paying their delivery van to bring it to your door during a one-hour slot that you specify. They do a price-match thing with Tesco so although Waitrose do stock some pricey stuff, you can order your Andrex toilet roll and other ordinary groceries and not be spending any extra.

BTW, they also sell organic bone broth (very paleo!) in the form of Laverstoke Park beef stock and lamb stock.

Hi Sasha ,

Thanks for reply...There is no Ocado delivery(by van) where I live.

 

[MeSci]

Hi Sasha,
Thanks for your reply(another link)...I have just checked again on the ocado link that you provided.The minimum order is 40£....not cheap!Then there is postage on top of that.I'm still looking for a supplier in UK...or online providing it is not so expensive..Has anyone found such a supplier!....Thanks..

Goodness Direct will deliver free for orders over £35, and they have a lot of healthy stuff, e.g. organic and gluten-free, They have something they call potato starch here.

They also have some other flours which may be of benefit here.

If you are a member of Action for ME (pardon my language ) you will find £10 voucher codes in their magazine, which you will get 3 times a year, thus paying for your membership and more!

Amazon UK have thousands of items from a search for 'potato starch'.

 

[Sasha]

Don't worry about it. You were still getting some benefit with smaller doses. Keep in mind that most Western diets only give 3-5g of RS in a single day. So, you were way beyond that even with lots of tiny doses. And if they weren't too far apart, I'm sure some made its way past the proximal end since the proximal critters would have still been busy from the previous ingestion. Don't stress. It's not a big deal.

Thanks! I was thinking I'd just wasted three weeks.

Well, the goal of a bolus dose is to take 4 or more Tbsp in one sitting. It's a lot of starch going down at once so some people like to take it with extra water to flush it down the hatch, and I just meant don't try to swallow tons and tons of water in one or two large gulps. There's no rush to get it down as long as you get it all down within a few minutes.

That's good to know. There's a whole new set of skills with this! Thanks again.