The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[dmholmes]

Not methane as, contrary to popular belief, methane has no smell. H2S, I suspect.

@MeSci, thanks for the tip. Do you think that is indicative of dysbiosis? I already show low amount of the good guys, the aforementioned Campylobacter, and fat malabsorption on recent GI lab. Lyme IgM P39 antibodies, EBV, C. Pneumoniae antibodies, Mycoplasma Pneumoniae antibodies, Cytomegalovirus antibodies on LabCorp.

 

[MeSci]

@MeSci, thanks for the tip. Do you think that is indicative of dysbiosis? I already show low amount of the good guys, the aforementioned Campylobacter, and fat malabsorption on recent GI lab. Lyme IgM P39 antibodies, EBV, C. Pneumoniae antibodies, Mycoplasma Pneumoniae antibodies, Cytomegalovirus antibodies on LabCorp.

'Fraid I'm not an authority on all those details (more of a holist), but I think that H2S is probably not a good sign. There have been threads about H2S.

 

[satori]

RS (PS) worsens my fungal problems. So does FOS. I have verified this with the Metametrix test. I have the yeast/fungus taxonomy unknown and it's very difficult to find things to use to improve the SCFA.

 

[MeSci]

Just came across some info on ammonia when looking for something else. It looks as
though for people with d-lactic or other types of acidosis, it may not be advisable to reduce ammonia as it helps to buffer the acidosis products:

http://fitsweb.uchc.edu/student/selectives/TimurGraham/Ammonium_Excretion.html

which says:

The major adaptation to an increased acid load is increased ammonium production and excretion. The ability to excrete H+ ions as ammonium adds an important degree of flexibility to renal acid base regulation, because the rate of NH4+ production and excretion can be regulated in response to the acid base requirements of the body. Also of importance is the role of ammonium production in the further generation of bicarbonate ions.

The info I was actually looking for may also be of interest, but like most biochemical processes it is very complicated. It's in this paper on the biochemistry of d-lactic acidosis.

Figure 6 is perhaps particularly interesting.

 

[Ripley]

RS (PS) worsens my fungal problems. So does FOS. I have verified this with the Metametrix test. I have the yeast/fungus taxonomy unknown and it's very difficult to find things to use to improve the SCFA.

Are you very low carb or low carb right now?

 

[Lou]

Just came across some info on ammonia when looking for something else. It looks as
though for people with d-lactic or other types of acidosis, it may not be advisable to reduce ammonia as it helps to buffer the acidosis products:

http://fitsweb.uchc.edu/student/selectives/TimurGraham/Ammonium_Excretion.html

which says:



The info I was actually looking for may also be of interest, but like most biochemical processes it is very complicated. It's in this paper on the biochemistry of d-lactic acidosis.

Figure 6 is perhaps particularly interesting.

Well, ain't that the cat's ass. Who among us doesn't have some problems with lactate? Isn't its abnormal buildup the cause of our PEM?

This could point to something Dr. Paul Cheney said long time ago: (the gist of it); For ME/cfs some of the problems are 'workarounds' keeping us alive. I surely hope excess ammonia gets no credit here.

So far, high safe starches and PS seem to have beneficial effects, but I don't wish to be asleep at the wheel with something vaguely amiss a-brewing.

Hopefully, when he finds time, Ripley will weigh in on this.

 

[MeSci]

Who among us doesn't have some problems with lactate? Isn't its abnormal buildup the cause of our PEM?

I don't think that this is yet known for sure. This is an extract from my blog describing lactate as a likely factor perpetuating leaky gut and therefore possibly autoantibody production (etc.):

Once mitochondrial function is impaired, e.g. by autoantibodies, perhaps to HSP60, even a small amount of exertion will push the mitochondria into anaerobic energy production, which generates and uses lactate/lactic acid. This can lead to high blood lactate levels (hyperlactaemia) which in turn could feed back to the gut, causing it to become over-acidic and perpetuating leaky gut. (NB there may be some sufferers who have the opposite pH problem of too little acidity in their guts, so this particular process may be irrelevant to them.)

In my own case at least, my perception is that over-exertion leads to hyperlactaemia which in turn leads to osmotic diuresis, with resultant electrolyte deficiency.

 

[Ripley]

Hopefully, when he finds time, Ripley will weigh in on this.

I'm afraid I can't help with d-lactic acidosis. I don't know much about it, other than it's pretty rare. Does anyone here know they have d-lactic acidosis? If so, you need to work with your doctor on a solution.

Interestingly, many pathogens — including Candida and H Pylori — will secrete ammonia in order to make their immediate environments more alkaline, since they either cannot survive or cannot replicate in acidic environments. So, they secrete ammonia to make their immediate environments ideal for their replication.

In general, supplementing with 3-4 Tbsp of RS for 3 weeks and eating fermentable carbs and/or fibers should create an acidic environment rich in SCFAs in the intestines. Many of these pathogens are actually killed or diminished by the SCFAs themselves. (And, of course, raw Apple Cider Vinegar, or Betaine HCl & Pepsin, can help maintain a beneficial acidic environment in the stomach).

So, it's entirely possible that elevated ammonia can come from pathogens still thriving when alkaline conditions still exist.

But, no, I can't give advice to someone with d-lactic acidosis. I just don't know anything about it. But, I don't think it's something you can just guess you have from reading about it on the Internet. If you have d-lactic acidosis, you need to have a real diagnosis and a real strategy with a knowledgeable doctor.

 

[dmholmes]

Who among us doesn't have some problems with lactate? Isn't its abnormal buildup the cause of our PEM?

If you believe my NutrEval I have no lactic acid .

 

[adreno]

And according to my metametrix I have an alkaline gut environment and low lactid acid bacteria, and some fungus.

 

[Lou]

Thanks, Ripley, since my post in reaction to that of MeSci I've done a little searching for d-lactic acidosis. I really don't have the symptoms.

Don't know if this even applies here, but what I think as my symptom for problem with lactate is when a muscle is stressed (for instance when some action places muscle in not often used position I can get what I call a muscle burn) excessively.

 

[Lou]

If you believe my NutrEval I have no lactic acid .

Yep, Think I made an uninformed reply, hopefully not getting this thread too far astray. Thanks.

 

[knackers323]

If the RS is food for bugs in the gut, wouldn't it also feed the undesirable strains also?

I apologise if this has already been asked.

 

[South]

If the RS is food for bugs in the gut, wouldn't it also feed the undesirable strains also?

The Million Dollar Question, right there! EVERY other Pre-biotic I have ever tried gives me severe headaches and immediate slow down of my already too slow bowel movements.

In a roomful of people who do wonderfully on FOS, psyllium soluble fiber, or inulin, I'm always the only one who gets slow gut motility galore from them. I also have had many symptoms of candida overgrowth over the years, that I hold at bay with antifungals like caprylic acid capsules, and avoiding sugar.

So, forgive me if I'm a little hesitant to jump into resistant starch, given my own mystery mix of gut bugs. I tried resistant starch when this thread first got going, at only a small dose, and started to get the same negative reactions as what FOS etc can give me, and was afraid to continue.

Wondering if my problem is only in the small intestine, what they call SIBO, I may try resistant starch rectally (put a little in an enema bottle with some water.).

The overriding concern is that some people have a bad microbe that CAN eat resistant starch.

 

[Beyond]

I wasn´t thinking in pharma drugs, although that is an option. I just have yet to see someone curing a significant mental problem with probiotics. I am against pharma drugs btw! Let´s not beat a dead horse anyway, I have no interest in discussing this and especially in this tread, what I will post here will be my experience with resistant starch in a few weeks.

I have to say that I did a quick search in Google scholar and there are plenty of studies proving that gut flora has a noticeable impact in mental symptoms and brain function.

 

[Hip]

If the RS is food for bugs in the gut, wouldn't it also feed the undesirable strains also?

I apologise if this has already been asked.

Resistant starch is a prebiotic, and by definition, a prebiotic is a food that good bacteria are able eat for nutrition, but bad bacteria are not.

So when you take a prebiotic, it selectively feeds the good bacteria, but at the same time helps starve the bad bacteria.

 

[Rand56]

Agreed. I think it's a very good sign if you don't get any flatulence from 4 teaspoons of RS (4 teaspoons = 1.3 Tablespoons). That's a pretty good sign that you can ramp up quickly to 2-4 Tablespoons/day and get the fermentation to move towards the distal end of the large intestine

hi Ripley

Thanks for mentioning this. Yesterday I ramped up to 2 tbsp, and took it all at once, from the 4 teaspoons I was doing, without any complications.

 

[South]

...a prebiotic is a food that good bacteria are able eat for nutrition, but bad bacteria are not.

So when you take a prebiotic, it selectively feeds the good bacteria, but at the same time helps starve the bad bacteria.

I'm sorry, but I disagree, depending on that person's situation. PREbiotics CAN feed bad bacteria, (not to say that they necessarily will in each person, but they can).
Here's a wikipedia page on FOS stating "FOS are also fermented by numerous bacterial species in the intestine, including Klebsiella, E. coli[10] and many Clostridium species, which can be pathogenic in the gut."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructooligosaccharide

I'm not saying that all PREbiotics are the same (many people who cannot use FOS without reactions are reporting success with resistant starch, and the structure of these two example prebiotics is different, for example).

And I'm not saying that all people need to be careful with resistant starch. I'm saying that those of us with preexisting overgrowth problems in the gut need to be careful.

I've had psyllium shoved at me from every doctor, health food store, and well-meaning person in the universe. Psyllium is a disaster for me. Yet wonderful for many people. And many call it a prebiotic.

As for resistant starch, posts later in this thread are giving me inspiration in trying resistant starch in an enema bottle to bypass my problematic small intestine (thanks for all the info guys!) and exploring adding probiotics directly to the resistant starch liquid.

 

[Violeta]

Has anyone tried konjac, aka glucomannan? I'm not sure if it contains resistant starch, but it sounds really good.

http://www.konjacfoods.com/index.html

@South, do you eat a no starch diet?

 

[South]

@Violeta No, I don't avoid starches; why do you ask? As a matter of fact, I do better including a certain amount of starch in my diet. Starch does not equal soluble fiber. Two different things. And starches are not all resistant starch, if that doesn't make sense, then please read this thread from the beginning, it will explain.