The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Violeta]

@South, I understand, I was just wondering because there's a forum for a disease that is caused by kleb and they claim a no starch diet helps.

Also, I have seen it said that when you start the resistant starch that it can cause discomfort for several reasons, but that that discomfort doesn't mean that it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing.

I was wondering if you read the information by Vegas that was posted here. He says that when certain strains of bacteria, bifidobacteria, are reintroduced into the colon, they displace the bad bacteria. However, that can cause an initial uncomfortable immune response, too.

If you are interested in working on your problem from this angle, you might find Vegas' messages over at the detox methylation, B12 forum interesting.

 

[Hip]

I'm sorry Ripley, but I disagree, depending on that person's situation. PREbiotics CAN feed bad bacteria, much as we wish they wouldn't.
Here's a wikipedia page on FOS stating "FOS are also fermented by numerous bacterial species in the intestine, including Klebsiella, E. coli[10] and many Clostridium species, which can be pathogenic in the gut."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructooligosaccharide

It's Hip, not Ripley.

That's the actual definition of prebiotic.

A prebiotic is defined as "a nondigestible food ingredient that beneficially affects the host by selectively stimulating the growth and/or activity of one or a limited number of bacteria in the colon, and thus improves host health". Ref: here.

Generally, this means that a prebiotic will promote the growth of good bacteria in preference to bad bacteria.

The fact that FOS can feed certain pathogenic bacteria in the gut means that it is not a perfect prebiotic.

Just how perfect resistant starch is as a prebiotic, I am not sure. Perhaps someone can find some studies looking at which bacteria resistant starch feeds and promotes.

But that fact that resistant starch is classed as a prebiotic indicates that it will in general promote the growth or activity of beneficial bacteria in the gut.

 

[Ripley]

I'm sorry Ripley, but I disagree, depending on that person's situation. PREbiotics CAN feed bad bacteria, much as we wish they wouldn't.

Heh. Excuse me? I never said that. It was Hip!

Secondly, RS has like a 95% success rate amongst people who try it. And the reason why RS is so successful is probably because of the reasons explained in this post:

http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/jeff-leach-wrote.html

When your body starts fermenting SCFAs, it makes an acidic environment that is inhospitable to the "bad" gut bugs and ideal for the "good" gut bugs. And the SCFAs themselves have been shown to kill off the bad guys and support the good guys.

This is mostly about creating the right ecosystem. But, you can't create the right ecosystem with a few teaspoons of RS.

@South, most likely the reason why you react negatively to prebiotics is because — like most people — you probably aren't fermenting any SCFAs, to create the right acidic ecosystem. So, I would imagine that the tiny amount of RS and prebiotics you took just fed the bad gut bugs who are thriving in a (bad) alkaline digestive system.

But, does that mean that prebiotics are off limits? I don't see how that could be. Feeding your flora isn't an option. If you don't feed them, they'll just find food elsewhere (like your stomach lining/mucosa).

This understanding of switching the pH of your colon from alkaline to acidic would explain why this guy was able to solve a lot of his problems by taking a few large "bolus" doses to sweep out the bad guys and switch on fermentation.

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/dramatic-resistant-success.html

I think that takes a lot of balls, so I wouldn't "recommend" that for everyone. But, it worked for that guy. My point is that this is about creating the right ecosystem by switching on fermentation and making an acidic environment that weeds out the bad guys and grows the good guys.

 

[Ripley]

By the way, there is a way to create the right acidic ecosystem in the distal colon without jamming lots of RS down your stomach. There is one commenter on freetheanimal that is using an RS enema with lots of success. He is creating the right acidic environment from the other direction. And there is evidence that even the Egyptians were doing this with raw tuber starches thousands of years ago. So, that's another option if you are worried about feeding the bad guys before the proper acidic environment is in place.

Check this out:

Spanish Caravan // Dec 24, 2013 at 11:37

Today’s is a holiday so, last night, I did an enema with 2 tbsps of BRM RS and I unloaded the 3 probiotics that I’m taking (Mark’s Primal Flora, Prescript-Assist, and DrBG’s Probiotics 3). Mixed them all in a 4.5 oz distilled water. There were some rumblings downstream but I had the best sleep ever and had an incredible dream involving a dog as large as an elephant that appeared on my front lawn; you’ll notice I’ve been posting about dogs and RS today.

Wow, I think what happened was a mega-Serotonin boost. I’ woke up 3 hours ago but I’m still in a state of euphoria. Those who know what a “running high” is will know what I’m talking about, only that it’s 10 times stronger. And I can recall details of my dream, which was very sweet and pleasant. Unlike DMT or DPT which induce nightmares, RS always ensures that your dreams are pleasant

 

[anne_likes_red]

I haven't been able to get beyond a few teaspoons without discomfort so far. I found a good antidote for the discomfort is some ACV in warm water.

....That is very interesting Ripley....there's more than one way to skin a cat. Think I'll have a stiff ACV drink and head over to FTA for some research...

Thanks everyone for the great discussion.

 

[Ripley]

I haven't been able to get beyond a few teaspoons without discomfort so far. I found a good antidote for the discomfort is some ACV in warm water.

Interesting you say that. ACV is an acidic medium — known to disrupt the pathogens that thrive in an alkaline environment. h. Pylori and Candida are the two most notorious examples of pathogens that secrete ammonia to alkalize their immediate environments so that they can thrive. As they reduce the acidity of their ecosystem a number of shoes (can) begin to drop.

So, ACV down into the stomach and RS in an enema (possibly mixed with homemade kefir or probiotics) would be a way to create acidic environments from both ends — inactivating pathogens and promoting beneficial flora all the way. It's worth a shot.

If I remember correctly, ACV is often best taken with or after meals to promote acidity during digestion.

 

[adreno]

Oh yes, enemas... How I miss doing those

 

[Ripley]

Here are more quotes from Spanish Caravan, for those interested in the retention enema approach:

Spanish Caravan // Nov 16, 2013 at 09:13 Someone here suggested that an enema might work better. And guess what, yes, you can bypass nightshade reaction with an enema, since you’re bypassing the small intestine. I took 4 tbsp of PS last night.

Wow, some of you guys should try that! I’m serious. It was like … well, I don’t know if you guys have ever taken a strong probiotic like Natren. It felt exactly like that. There was something going on down there that I can only describe as a bunch of bacteria playing ultimate frisbee! There were constant turnovers, you can tell there is a battle going on! I had an incredible sleep (but no vivid dreaming, however). I mean, I did not wake up even once. I was sound asleep from the beginning to the end and it was such the most sweet and tranquil sleep I ever had in a long time!

Anyone have nightshade type of reaction with PS, there is another way. You won’t have that type of reaction the other way. I’ve only tried it once but I can’t wait to do it again tonight!

Spanish Caravan // Nov 18, 2013 at 19:39 The other way is RE = Retention Enema. Do it at night before going to bed after having gone to the bathroom. There is no chance that PS will travel to your small intestine and make you react. I’ve tried it twice already and it was beautiful. BM like soft ice cream.

Spanish Caravan has a nightshade intolerance and he says he gets no reaction to PS this way.

Spanish Caravan // Nov 20, 2013 at 10:41 I only do enema on weekends. Done it twice. That turmoil died down the second time. BM like soft ice cream. If you’re interested in transporting the RS all the way downstream to the distal colon, there seems to be nothing better. Last time, I made a mixture of 2 tbsp. of PS, 1 tbsp. of mung bean starch, and 1 tbsp. of Hi Maize. Trying to diversify since Dr. Edes commented that too much PS might contribute to tumorigenesis.

Btw, the increased tumors from the rat model were from a diet of 20% PS, which is way more than what any of us are doing, but something to think about. Here is a more detailed discussion on the tumorigenesis in rats (looks like the researchers actually used 1,2-dimethylhydrazine to induce the tumors in the rats).

Spanish Caravan // Dec 16, 2013 at 16:21 if you want perfect stool, that would be Bristol Chart Type 4. That would be an elongated banana, soft, smooth, no bumps or cracks on the surface a la Type 3 or Type 2. It is so soft that it is formless when it falls to the toilet and makes no splashing sound, even.

That can be had if you do an enema with 4 tbsp of the RS variety (PS, plantain flour, mung bean starch, Hi Maize corn starch, etc.). You’ll have soft ice cream coming out of your rear end. I was so impressed I thought I became an ice cream machine. Btw, the deepest sleep I ever had was the night of my RS enema. It was 100% REM sleep from beginning to end.

Spanish Caravan later said he stopped using mung bean starch because it was making him hyperthermic. And he mixes in a little King Arthur Flour Hi Maze starch for the variety (Hi Maize is a manufactured starch and is roughly 60% RS and 40% digestible/glycemic starch).

Spanish Caravan // Jan 28, 2014 at 00:14 I haven’t done enema in a while. But I can tell you, it’s stronger from the bottom up. You basically deliver it directly to your distal colon. No need for psyllium husks. I’ve only done it with RS and a few probiotics. Now, having said that, I’d be wary of doing certain SBO probiotics that way. Most probiotics, I think, have been tested for tolerance the mouth-gut route, not the other way. So if you have to do it, stick to RS2 via retention enema and, if you have to, the regular lactobacillus and bifidum variety that way.

I can tell you, 4 tbsps of PS orally is probably equal to 2 tbsps the other way. The strength quadruples. The sleep effect magnifies and you’re in RS-induced euphoria the whole day. Seriously, if anyone’s every been depressed, this is a cure not only for insomnia but malaise.

Oh yeah, if you got SIBO, then why go through the small intestine when there is a more direct way. Don’t beat around the bush.

He may be right about not using SBOs directly in the colon. SBOs are definitely found in the stomach — though, I'm sure many SBOs make their way to the colon when we use RS and SBOs together. But through the mouth is the natural direction for SBOs.

I know GAPS practitioners recommend homemade kefir in enemas, so that's an option too.

 

[Beyond]

I have done milk and water kefir enemas for the record, and I didn´t notice anything better over oral. Drinking those is better in my experience, less hassle. Ahh milk kefir enema was REALLY a mess.

 

[Abha]

Hi Ripley and all,

This is a very interesting thread...Thanks Ripley.I live in the UK and I have been looking at resistant starch products on the web.If anyone has found a good/cheap supplier for those living in UK please let me know.I see you have a connection too Ripley with Candida.I need to spend more time looking at that too.

 

[Sasha]

If anyone has found a good/cheap supplier for those living in UK please let me know.

Hi Abha - see my post on this:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ve-been-looking-for.26976/page-16#post-426770

 

[Ripley]

More details from Spanish Caravan. This was what he described after doing the retention enema the first time (clicking on the time-stamps takes you to the actual comment on FTA):

Spanish..curious but what is your sleep like normally without starch enema? Are you doing a retention enema with low water? thanks!

Spanish Caravan // Nov 16, 2013 at 11:32 Ilise, I’m a very light sleeper. I get disturbed by the sound of rain, traffic noise, etc. I fall asleep but my REM sleep is disturbed constantly by the going on at night. This one was like: I mean I can’t remember a thing that happened at night. It’s like I have an amnesia.

No, I just mixed 4 tbsp of PS in water, shook virogorously, then threw out the saline solution in a 4.5 fl oz Fleet enema bottle and replaced it. Use a funnel. Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand. Then I laid down and made sure I wasn’t going to expel it. After about an hour, I knew I wouldn’t, even with all the turmoil inside my lower gut! Wow, there was a high-scoring, baceterial Super Bowl taking place, with many touchdowns! So then I went to sleep. I know it stayed in there the whole time I slept. And I haven’t gone to the bathroom yet. Don’t need to. But I feel great!

I assume it helps to turn over every once in awhile otherwise the RS would probably just settle to one side of the colon

Spanish Caravan // Nov 16, 2013 at 12:03 Actually, I just had a BM and I have this to report: it was most incredible BM I ever had. All that pandemonium inside my lower gut sparked by last night’s enema reulsted in the softest, silky smooth stool I ever seen in my life. I mean, my constipation was fixed by RS about 1.5 months ago. And it’s been Bristol Chart Type 4 since. But this one was still yet different: all one pice and not a ridge or any kind of edge you can make out on its sufrace, which was as smooth and soft like an hard boiled egg. I reached for the tissue but nothing would wipe.

I’m telling ya, Scott Tissue will go bankrupt if we all start taking RS! I was so amazed I took a dozen pictures to remember this for eons (if anyone wants a pic, let me know!) This sets a new standard as far as BM is concerned. I think this will cure the most intractable constipation issue in no time! Yes, there is Bristol Chart 4, but this one is like Bristol Chart 4 off the chart!

Are you planning to do the PS enema everyday?

Spanish Caravan // Nov 16, 2013 at 16:01 No, not everyday, Natural!...

...So this is the “sandwich strategy,” so to speak. I highly recommend it but I’ve only been at it less than 24 hours. I plan on doing it again today, just to make up for what I might have missed out. But I’m thinking about it maybe twice a week on an ongoing basis, if all goes well. Yes, I think it’s very helfpul. You’ll never forget it once you do it, because you can feel the effect immediately. That’s why I think the mouth to gut route never took it down that far; I’m positive that my colon has been exposed to the RS just yesterday the other way.

Spanish Caravan // Nov 16, 2013 at 16:48 If, as Tatertot says, the beneficial bacteria are all in the large intestine and near the colon, why take a chance and pass the RS through the small intestine? Especially when you have leaky gut and nightshade reactions? The most direct route is from the anus-to-colon route, excuse the terminology.

Plus we have Norman’s assiduous warning that RS could worsen SIBO and GERD; well, if that’s true, then why not just bypass the small intestine? No SIBO, no GERD. No nightshade reactions as leaky gut happens in the small intestine. I’m glad I didn’t throw out my PS and MS. I felt that I could never take them.

But there was another way, after all. The light bulb turned on in my head and I said, “Eureka!”

Sounds like those SCFAs kick some serious ass (ba-dump-cheh!)

 

[satori]

Are you very low carb or low carb right now?

Low carb made absolutely no difference for me. I'm gluten, dairy, sugar, and yeast free. I try to eat moderately so I'm probably not too far from low carb.

I don't think enough is known about these things yet to determine how or why they work. Clearly, they work for some, but not for others. Hopefully someday soon microbiology will advance to the point where we can figure out why certain things work for some and not others.

 

[knackers323]

Psyllium or another non-starch polysaccharide can help move the fermentation distally.

Is that the seeds, husks or powder?

Also is resistant starch from corn any good?

@Violeta What condition is caused by klebsiella ?

 

[Ripley]

Low carb made absolutely no difference for me. I'm gluten, dairy, sugar, and yeast free. I try to eat moderately so I'm probably not too far from low carb.

I don't think enough is known about these things yet to determine how or why they work. Clearly, they work for some, but not for others. Hopefully someday soon microbiology will advance to the point where we can figure out why certain things work for some and not others.

There has been 30-40 years of research on RS — and hundreds of studies — so a lot is known about it.

In any case, the starch enema (described above) should bypass any issues you have. It would instantly turn on SCFA production at the source, and those SCFAs would inactivate and/or kill yeasts/pathogens — that's what they do!

 

[Ripley]

Also is resistant starch from corn any good? Thanks

Pure corn (maize) is pretty low in RS. Cooking and cooling maize can result in RS3 (such as tortillas, for instance). I believe that's pretty much the gist to the manufactured Hi-Maize starch (available from King Arthur Flour) — which is 60% RS and 40% glycemic/digestible starch. However, getting some variety of RS sources can be a good thing.

 

[knackers323]

Pure corn (maize) is pretty low in RS. Cooking and cooling maize can result in RS3 (such as tortillas, for instance). I believe that's pretty much the gist to the manufactured Hi-Maize starch (available from King Arthur Flour) — which is 60% RS and 40% glycemic/digestible starch. However, getting some variety of RS sources can be a good thing.

Iherb has a resistant starch product made from corn and I was wondering if it would do the same job as a product made from potato.

 

[Ripley]

Iherb has a resistant starch product made from corn and I was wondering if it would do the same job as a product made from potato.

It's probably Hi-Maize. It's ok. But it will spike your blood sugar a bit, so it's sort of like eating a tortilla

I wouldn't use it as my only source of RS though. Plantain flour is generally considered to be better.

 

[anne_likes_red]

@knackers323 I know someone using Hi-Maize (rotating it with potato starch) getting good results with improved blood sugar readings, better sleep etc. He doesn't have ME.
I guess my point is he thinks Hi Maize does the job just as well. It's a good idea to vary sources of starch I think.
My mother's going to pick up some green banana flour for me in Queensland next week.

 

[dmholmes]

Is that the seeds, husks or powder?

Psyllium husks powder is what I have.

Also is resistant starch from corn any good?

I don't eat corn so I haven't tried it.