The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[nandixon]

I was researching a class of drugs called "fibrates" and came across this recent (2015) article which describes Clostridium butyricum MIYAIRI 588 doing, possibly, the very thing I was hoping a fibrate might (i.e., overcome impaired oxidation of fatty acids).

An interesting point is that under the mouse model conditions they used, they found it necessary to use both the bacteria and the prebiotic inulin, and that neither one alone achieved a significant result.

Whether using inulin is ideal in our individual cases is another matter, but at least you know from this study that inulin does result in significant butyrate formation (in mice, anyway).

Induction of Peroxisomes by Butyrate-Producing Probiotics

In conclusion, elevation of butyrate availability (directly through administration of butyrate or indirectly via administration of butyrate-producing probiotics plus fiber) induces PPARα and Pex11a as well as genes involved in peroxisomal fatty acid β-oxidation, increases peroxisome abundance, and ultimately improves lipid metabolism.

 

[Sidereal]

Inulin/FOS was bad for me personally.

 

[JPV]

@Sidereal, have you found any substrates that work for you? Also, from what I gather, rotating them sounds like it might be the best approach. What are your thoughts?

 

[nandixon]

Inulin/FOS was bad for me personally.

I think it would probably be bad for me too, due to SIBO. But I may double check with the Miyarisan.

 

[Sidereal]

@Sidereal, have you found any substrates that work for you? From what I gathering, rotating them sounds like it might be the best approach. What do you think?

I agree - diversity of substrate seems to be the key. I rotate them constantly now after early mistakes I made with singular supplementation. RS worked very well initially but I supplemented with just it for too long and eventually it caused problems. What I do these days is eat cooked and cooled potatoes and rice instead of supplementing RPS.

What else has worked? Beet root extract. Aloe vera. NAG (N-acetyl glucosamine) is good for anxiety for anyone struggling with that. I also take very small amounts of brown algae which are very energising but cause massive inflammation so only microscopic doses are tolerable. Slippery elm bark and fenugreek seemed promising but I took too much and they caused a crash so I need to circle back to these eventually at low doses.

What has made me worse? Inulin, FOS, GOS, larch arabinogalactan, Artinia, cinnamon, flax seed, Cat's claw, anything with phenols, and probably a dozen other things I can't remember right now.

It's different for everyone of course.

 

[Rand56]

I got my Miyarisan. First day I only took one tab..felt nothing. 2nd day took 2 tabs at once..felt nothing. Last 2 days I've taken 3 tabs all at once for each of those days. Still nothing. Nothing positive or negative. Has anyone else who has tried this experienced the same thing..until maybe you upped the dose more? I don't know what this is telling me. I'll keep going up on the dose.

 

[JPV]

I took 2 tabs the first day and 4 the second day. Definitely experienced some stomach discomfort both days and a bit of gas on the second day. I also took a small dose of potato starch the second day.

I suspect that I might have some fungal issues so the discomfort might be stemming from the Clostridium Butyricum displacing pathogens. Can't really say for sure as this is just speculation. I experienced a similar sensation the first few days that I tried potato starch on it's own, a few months back. Either way, I take the discomfort as a sign that my gut microbiota is being reconfigured in some way.

 

[nandixon]

I'm feeling noticeably a little better (more energy) at the full dose of Miyarisan, which for my bottle is 18 tablets per day (i.e., 6 tablets three times a day; each tablet contains 10mg of bacteria for a total of 180mg/day). But I'm only on my second day so can't say for certain, of course. No side effects so far. Perhaps it might be necessary to lower that amount later.

(Just to note that my diet naturally has a lot of fiber, and I also add ~1/2 cup or 120mL of uncooked rolled oats to a smoothie I have every day which, I think, has resistant starch roughly equivalent to 1 Tbs or 15mL of potato starch. I don't use it for that reason, though.)

 

[Rand56]

I'm feeling noticeably a little better (more energy) at the full dose of Miyarisan, which for my bottle is 18 tablets per day (i.e., 6 tablets three times a day; each tablet contains 10mg of bacteria for a total of 180mg/day). But I'm only on my second day so can't say for certain, of course. No side effects so far. Perhaps it might be necessary to lower that amount later.

(Just to note that my diet naturally has a lot of fiber, and I also add ~1/2 cup or 120mL of uncooked rolled oats to a smoothie I have every day which, I think, has resistant starch roughly equivalent to 1 Tbs or 15mL of potato starch. I don't use it for that reason, though.)

That's good to know nan. I might be one that can ramp up more quickly on the dose.

 

[adreno]

I got my Miyarisan. First day I only took one tab..felt nothing. 2nd day took 2 tabs at once..felt nothing. Last 2 days I've taken 3 tabs all at once for each of those days. Still nothing. Nothing positive or negative. Has anyone else who has tried this experienced the same thing..until maybe you upped the dose more? I don't know what this is telling me. I'll keep going up on the dose.

It could mean that you're in better shape than some of us. Hopefully you will get a reaction at the higher dose. Or perhaps we have different diseases. Do you fulfil the SEID criteria? What's your activity level?

Note also that there is huge variance in microbiome composition. From the article that JPV posted:

So staggering is this diversity that not only are the microbes on your hands 85% different from those on mine — meaning we each have a microbial fingerprint — but the microbes on your left hand are even different from those on your very own right hand.

 

[Rand56]

It could mean that you're in better shape than some of us. Hopefully you will get a reaction at the higher dose. Or perhaps we have different diseases. Do you fulfil the SEID criteria? What's your activity level?

Adreno, that is a very good question. At this point, I can't give you a good answer until I know more about the SEID criteria. Also, another reason why I can't give you a good answer on this, due to unforseen circumstances in my personal life, the last 3.5 weeks I have been running on adrenaline, because I have no choice but to stay constantly busy getting things done. Would rather not get into, because I don't want to derail the thread.

The good thing is, I have not crashed from all the added stress. I may at some point, I don't know. What could possibly be helping me, is prior to this, my depression has gotten better. Mainly I believe from a couple of supps I started taking. I've been on a constant quest....trying to determine if it's the chicken or the egg. Does my depression cause me to feel like a total slug, or is me feeling like a slug, causing the depression.

Sorry I don't have a good answer for you right now. I will find out more about the SEID criteria.

 

[adreno]

@Rand56

The SEID criteria are:

Diagnosis of ME/CFS requires that a patient have the following three core symptoms:

• A substantial reduction or impairment in the ability to engage in pre-illness levels of activities that persists for more than six months and is accompanied by fatigue—which is often profound—of new or definite onset, not the result of ongoing excessive exertion and not substantially alleviated by rest
• The worsening of patients' symptoms after any type of exertion—such as physical, cognitive, or emotional stress—known as post-exertional malaise
• Unrefreshing sleep

At least one of the two following manifestations is also required:

• Cognitive impairment
• The inability to remain upright with symptoms that improve when lying down—known as orthostatic intolerance

These symptoms should persist for at least six months and be present at least half the time with moderate, substantial, or severe intensity to distinguish ME/CFS from other diseases.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-02-iom-symptoms-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.html

 

[Rand56]

@Rand56

The SEID criteria are:


http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-02-iom-symptoms-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.html

Thanks for this adreno. Is this pretty much the bible and it's written in stone? In no way shape or form I am asking this to be a wizeass. All I know is there are other people on this forum who may not have every one of these criteria. I do not believe I have the true definition of PEM. At one point I did have some OI..but nothing as severe as some others on here. Quite frankly I experienced some symptoms of this when I was on some chit adrenal extract. Now on occasion..but not very often..I do experience some light headedness..particulary when I am bending over or when kneeling and I raise up too quickly.

Edit: Which reminds me..not very long ago..I'm guessing about 2 weeks ago..I raised up too quickly and I thought I was on the verge of passing out. That was the most extreme one time circumstance I have experienced.

 

[Sasha]

OK, so acid reflux still happening daily, nearly two months after the oesophageal spasm that started this. I don't yet have a diagnosis - tests and results are pending. It could be an ulcer, SIBO, hernia, anything...

Initially I stopped taking all my pre/probiotics (VSL-3, plus a single bolus dose of 4 tbsp PS with 1 tbsp psyllium powder) but that was catastrophically constipating so I left out the VSL-3 and tried just 1 tbsp PS - still constipating - and now am taking 1.5 tsp PS with 1/4 tsp psyllium three times a day just to keep things moving.

I'd rather not be taking the PS in case it's SIBO. I'd like to start taking Prescript Assist because many people seem to find that it fixes their constipation and if so, that would let me stop the PS. I know Prescript Assist is OK to take if it's SIBO, but is it going to make an ulcer worse?

Best to take Prescript Assist with or away from food - and does that depend on whether you've got SIBO?

 

[Rand56]

@adreno

Can added stress be a contributing factor to more severe OI issues?

 

[Rand56]

@adreno

Another way of saying this, since I've been running on adrenaline lately..could this be an extra contributing factor of a more severe OI reaction?

 

[adreno]

@adreno

Another way of saying this, since I've been running on adrenaline lately..could this be an extra contributing factor of a more severe OI reaction?

Yes, definitely.

 

[Rand56]

Yes, definitely.

Ok thanks. I know you know a 1000 times more about this than I do. That is why I know you are a good one to ask this question.

 

[adreno]

Thanks for this adreno. Is this pretty much the bible and it's written in stone?

Well, it would be for qualifying for a SEID diagnosis. I fit all five criteria. You might have a milder form, that doesn't manifest in the expression of all five dimensions, or you might suffer from something else entirely.

 

[Rand56]

@adreno

IIRC, didn't you start having more problems when you tried an adrenal extract? I don't think my memory has left me yet. It didn't take me long to get off that chit when I tried it.