The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[ariel]

Sasha, I would reiterate what others have already said, that it is best to take several prebiotics rather than just one.
It is also important to take your prebiotics with something like psyllium so that it is dispersed as much as possible along the GI tract.
Each prebiotic seems to feed a different set of bugs, and what you are really trying to do is change the entire environment to a healthier one. You are going to reach different to each prebiotic depending on what is happening in there for you.

My suggestion would be to scale down on the PS, or stop it altogether. And eat cooked and cooled potatoes at every meal instead. I would probably start with the beetroot as Sidereal has suggested, as she has been super reactive. Once that has settled I would then take tiny doses of any of the other prebiotics that have been mentioned here. Larch, apple fibre, mung bean starch, baobab, inulin, guar gum, etc, etc. And take one at a time so that you know how your body reacts. And then introduce something like psyllium or ground flax seed or apple fibre to help spread it.
I would also add in tiny doses of probiotics at the same time. I have about 8 that I rotate between.
All of this can be done really really slowly. And make sure you have something like activated charcoal at hand for when the discomfort starts up.
It is super NOT fun. But I really think that it is key.
You could also look into the homeopathics that Jepps and Asklipia have tried for candida. I haven't tried them yet, so can't really comment.

But most importantly -- don't worry!

 

[Sasha]

Thanks @ariel - having had success with the RS I maybe got overstuck on it but people have seemed to have trouble with so much stuff that it put me off expanding.

I've taken psyllium with the RS since the beginning (and ORAC powder until recently) to get things distally so at least I've got that going.

Terrible, terrible headaches with Prescript Assist, which I had to give up - again, very confused by accounts by some people of how it 'wrecked their gut'.

I know everyone is saying 'don't worry' but I am worried! There seems a risk that I could do myself some damage and I don't know how to weigh the risks. And if I'm adding one thing after another, even slowly, it's going to make it hard to identify what's the culprit if something goes wrong (as with this oesophageal thing - very hard to know where that come from).

Argh! Wonder if I should anyway wait and see what happens with the reflux and see if time alone will do something. It has improved over the past week (since I gave up the calcium carbonate, the VSL3 and now the PS and psyllium) but it's still there.

 

[ariel]

I would try some other probiotics and come back to the prescript assist at a later date.
And re adding one thing after another, whenever I add a new one I stop all the others to see what effect it is having.
Eating lots of cooked and cooled potatoes is also a good way forward.

 

[Sasha]

Thanks, @ariel, that's interesting.

I was thinking more about this last night, and how I'd set about moving forward with a broader range of this stuff and one problem I have is how to tell what's good vs what's bad, if I get a bad reaction. I got migraines and a major outbreak of cold sores with Prescript Assist, which @Vegas argued at the time was a good thing (indicating a particular kind of immune activation) but was (after a solid week of migraine) too much to live through and I simply didn't know if it really was a good thing, or a bad reaction.

I used to see this issue on the methylation threads: people would try stuff and get worse, and no-one could tell for sure what was 'healing', 'detoxing', or just plain damaging. I persisted a long time with methylation (tried three different protocols because of an early, fleeting improvement) and got increasingly debilitated each time for reasons that no-one could fathom, and had to give up.

The good thing about RS, for me, was that, apart from increased gas for a while (which everyone had noted, including those who benefited), the only results were positive. No negative reactions to make me question whether it was messing me up.

So how do we know what's good or bad, if we get a bad reaction? Which are good reactions, and which are bad? And how do we know?

 

[jepps]

So how do we know what's good or bad, if we get a bad reaction? Which are good reactions, and which are bad? And how do we know?

@Sasha Donna Gates describes this here. And R. Nikoley has an interesting report about inflammation: to much inflammation is bad, no inflammation is bad. The best for our immunity is a little inflammation, always a little over or at the individual tolerance, that you must find out. If you are always at or a little over the tolerable limit, you can increase dosages more and more, and your immunity will gradually increase too.
For me kinesiologic testing is a big help to find my tolerable limit and the right supplements, but this is very individual.

 

[Sidereal]

In my experience, "good" signs have been sleepiness, tiredness, muscle aches, dull headache (like when you have a cold). Signs that you should back off and either stop the supplement or restart at a much lower dose: liver pain, kidney pain, herpes reactivations.

 

[ariel]

Yes, it is tricky isn't it? Jepps and Sidereal gave great answers.

I'd say herpes reactivations would be something which would make me stop whatever I'm doing for a while. I take lyseine for that and really notice when I've accidentally stopped taking it for a bit and re-start. I try to be pretty careful with stimulating it.
Liver pain, I'm afraid to say, hasn't stopped me. Probably a bit foolish, but there you are! Whenever I've had liver pain I've tried to do a coffee enema as soon as possible. Some aren't comfortable with doing them, but it has saved me from a huge amount of discomfort. I basically found that as soon as the build up of whatever was out of me, all my symptoms went. Including headaches.

The only other thing I could add is that methylation is pretty tricky, and something I haven't always been very comfortable implementing as I know my brain power isn't really up to understanding it all. So I'm totally with you there!
Working on the gut is something I've been far more comfortable (even eager) doing as in the end it is basically adding in more fibre and probiotics. If my body can't handle that then to me it seems that I'm missing something really essential. The symptoms of body distress seems to be mostly the terrain changing and the bad stuff coming out. As I already mentioned, coffee enemas have helped me move it out as quickly as poss. and I've experienced first hand how much better the body feels as soon as the bad stuff is gone.

I did try eating only cooked and cooled potatoes for a few days, and it was really interesting as it did re-set my gut a little. For some here it might be too much to cut that much out of your diet, so I'm sure you could add in other things. Though just eating potatoes was pretty satisfying once I'd gotten past a slight initial appetite suppression. I'm still eating come cold potatoes at every meal as I know how happy my body was on it. The thing I really missed in the end was hard things to crunch on, and fresh vegetables.

The other interesting thing about each of the various fibres is that each of them seem to feed not only a different group of gut bugs, but different parts of the GIT.
Different fibres seem to have quite different actions which is why so many have emphasized taking a range. Larch is a totally different beast to PS. Same with mung bean, and with inulin.
I have yet to get my hands on baobab, but the fact that the Hadza consume so much of it is a sure sign that it probably does something pretty unique too.

Best wishes!

 

[ariel]

I also wanted to add that I **seriously** couldn't have done any of this without coffee enemas. I know I've gone on about it, and some people think they are a bad idea, but I couldn't take 1/4 teaspoon of PS without wanting to crawl up walls, my lymph becoming engorged, my liver aching, headaches, etc. etc. And it was the the same every time I introduced a new one like mung bean starch, green banana flour, larch, etc etc.
I would have either given up a lot earlier and simply not have been able to push past the discomfort, or made super slow progress.
I'm also loads better than 10 months ago. I no longer do the coffee enemas as often as my body can handle the levels of discomfort. I still have bad days and over that time have often stopped and started all the starches, but I know that my baseline is much better. I guess I'm finally actually absorbing food. Rather a handy thing really!

 

[ahmo]

Whenever I've had liver pain I've tried to do a coffee enema as soon as possible. Some aren't comfortable with doing them, but it has saved me from a huge amount of discomfort. I basically found that as soon as the build up of whatever was out of me, all my symptoms went. Including headaches.

I also wanted to add that I **seriously** couldn't have done any of this without coffee enemas.

Hear Hear!! Life-saver for me. I needed them daily during my just-completed 2.5 month Candida/SIBO purge. Today's my 2nd day without. (and a normal poop!)

 

[Sidereal]

I also wanted to add that I **seriously** couldn't have done any of this without coffee enemas. I know I've gone on about it, and some people think they are a bad idea, but I couldn't take 1/4 teaspoon of PS without wanting to crawl up walls, my lymph becoming engorged, my liver aching, headaches, etc. etc. And it was the the same every time I introduced a new one like mung bean starch, green banana flour, larch, etc etc.
I would have either given up a lot earlier and simply not have been able to push past the discomfort, or made super slow progress.
I'm also loads better than 10 months ago. I no longer do the coffee enemas as often as my body can handle the levels of discomfort. I still have bad days and over that time have often stopped and started all the starches, but I know that my baseline is much better. I guess I'm finally actually absorbing food. Rather a handy thing really!

That's a pretty awesome "hack"! Liver pain from ramped up detox is one of the major limiting factors on this protocol. I keep meaning to try milk thistle to see if it would improve things. Forgive my skepticism, but what is the purported mechanism of action of coffee enemas?

 

[Sidereal]

I know everyone is saying 'don't worry' but I am worried! There seems a risk that I could do myself some damage and I don't know how to weigh the risks. And if I'm adding one thing after another, even slowly, it's going to make it hard to identify what's the culprit if something goes wrong (as with this oesophageal thing - very hard to know where that come from).

@Sasha, ever read the animal pharm blog? For the past year or so it's just been an ongoing assault on RS. She's compiled pretty much every negative reaction to RS she could find. According to that website, you and everyone else here who has been using this for many months with good results should be keeled over or something.

My point is, there is a ton of scary information about doing damage or wrecking your gut on just about every supplement imaginable. You didn't let that dissuade you from taking RS or psyllium. I don't want to encourage you or anyone else to take anything that could make you feel worse but I do think you may be selectively attending to negative information about other prebiotics due to anxiety. That sort of frame of mind can cause paralysing inaction. Speaking from personal experience.

 

[ahmo]

@Sidereal there's a link to my CE blog in my signature. You'll find links there to a number of sources of info re CEs. swilsons.com sells special coffee, and has an extensive library. Yes, special coffee. i was sceptical of this initially, but it's made a huge difference. cheers, ahmo

 

[jepps]

I am a little sceptic too. I also did much enemas and also coffee enemas before deciding to only build up the gut, forget all detoxification elements, and to give the body a chance, to learn, to detoxify by itself.
After doing a liver flush, my gut flora went downwards, and since this point, I am sceptic against all cleansing methods. This may be a fault, I am not sure.
Dr. Ayers writes:
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.at/2008/09/anti-inflammatory-diet.html

Liver flushing and enemas
I think that most fatty liver comes from either fructose or alcohol. I don't think that liver flushing occurs and enemas should be used only in emergencies. A healthy gut flora should eliminate the need for enemas.

Chris Kresser also recommends to be cautious with colon hydrotherapy and coffee enemas. For many people they work, but sometimes they are to much.

This is only my thought, that may be entirely wrong.

 

[adreno]

What's the point of building up your gut flora, and then flushing it all out with enemas?

 

[Sidereal]

What's the point of building up your gut flora, and then flushing it all out with enemas?

That's kinda what I was thinking.

 

[jepps]

@Sasha, ever read the animal pharm blog? .

I do not agree to Dr. Grace concerning PS. It was good, that she pointed out, that PS alone should not be given with severe SIBO, and it should not be given alone. But both points were discussed in this thread from the beginning. When PS is taken together with other fibres, as much gut bacterias as possible are supported, and, as @ariel posted, different parts of the intestine (thank you, I did not know this, very interesting). 3-4 tbsp PS alone wipes out certain bacterias, but the dosage makes the poison.

Regarding bifido longum: honey supports bifido longum more than FOS and inulin.
http://www.honey.com/images/uploads/general/bifidobacteria.pdf

Growth-promotion • Honey was more effective than individual components in two (Bf-6 and B. longum) of the three strains tested
Growth of B. longum, B. breve and B. infantis enhanced more with honey than with inulin or FOS but not as well as GOS • Growth of B. bifidum enhanced more with honey than with FOS and GOS but not as well as inulin • Growth of B. adolescentis with honey or inulin appears to be similar

 

[jepps]

What's the point of building up your gut flora, and then flushing it all out with enemas?

I did a stool test before the liver cleansing and afterwards: afterwards the flora was remarkable reduced.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha, ever read the animal pharm blog? For the past year or so it's just been an ongoing assault on RS. She's compiled pretty much every negative reaction to RS she could find. According to that website, you and everyone else here who has been using this for many months with good results should be keeled over or something.

My point is, there is a ton of scary information about doing damage or wrecking your gut on just about every supplement imaginable. You didn't let that dissuade you from taking RS or psyllium. I don't want to encourage you or anyone else to take anything that could make you feel worse but I do think you may be selectively attending to negative information about other prebiotics due to anxiety. That sort of frame of mind can cause paralysing inaction. Speaking from personal experience.

I take your point! My improvement has made me more scared of trying things rather than less so. I think it's because when I started, I improved, but then had a long period of getting worse and worse until I was worse than ever (through trying other things, and wondering if Prescript Assist had done it). I finally identified the culprit as coconut meat, of all things.

I've only read the post in Animal Pharm that tatertot linked to, where Dr BG recommended the combo that got me my improvement, ironically (PS + psyllium + ORAC powder).

I need to get a grip!

Fortunately, my acid reflux is calming down (not entirely gone yet, after two weeks) which I hope means that something is self-healing.

Only three respondents on the poll so far, BTW, if anyone would care to take a punt:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...w-long-before-you-returned-to-baseline.36438/

Thanks for your support on this, @Sidereal. It's been a stressful time and I appreciate your help and your calming words!

 

[Sidereal]

I do not agree to Dr. Grace concerning PS. It was good, that she pointed out, that PS alone should not be given with severe SIBO, and it should not be given alone. But both points were discussed in this thread from the beginning. When PS is taken together with other fibres, as much gut bacterias as possible are supported, and, as @ariel posted, different parts of the intestine (thank you, I did not know this, very interesting). 3-4 tbsp PS alone wipes out certain bacterias, but the dosage makes the poison.

Regarding bifido longum: honey supports bifido longum more than FOS and inulin.
http://www.honey.com/images/uploads/general/bifidobacteria.pdf

Personally, switching to FOS/inulin on the basis of some papers I read + her blog set me back quite a bit in autumn last year. Inulin looks good on paper but for me it undid a lot of the progress I'd made on RPS.

 

[Sidereal]

I've only read the post in Animal Pharm that tatertot linked to, where Dr BG recommended the combo that got me my improvement, ironically (PS + psyllium + ORAC powder).

I need to get a grip!

Fortunately, my acid reflux is calming down (not entirely gone yet, after two weeks) which I hope means that something is self-healing.

That is ironic, @Sasha. Dr Grace has since done a 180 on PS so if you'd read any of her recent posts you'd probably never have gone near the one thing that's improved your ME in the last decade (if I recall correctly). Just goes to show you how life is mostly driven by good or bad luck and educated guessing.

Coconut meat?

Have a look at the ORAC powder you're using. I felt great on the one I was using for about a day or two and then on day three was slammed with immense FM pain and other symptoms. Turns out it was full of various digestive enzymes and Lactobacillus acidophilus, both of which are contraindicated in ME/CFS in my opinion.