The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Sasha]

@Sasha - @jepps is very specific about the need to balance the prebiotics, which can be weighted differently depending on the problem. Hopefully she will be able to provide some advice.

Interestingly, I just read a blog last night by a person who had recovered from "CFS" by the use of, in part, probiotics.
(S)he stated that h.pylori tends to be low or absent in those with CFS. When I was scoped about 12 years ago, that was the situation with me even though I had GI symptoms at the time. https://cfsremission.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/probiotics-lack-lactobacillus-acidophilus/

It appears your over-reliance on the single prebiotic led to the h. pylori, as you recognize.

Thanks - I'll take a look at that, though n=1 is problematic, I think - our guts seem to be all over the place.

Actually, I hadn't considered that my reliance on PS had caused the problem - it's possible, of course (anything's possible!) but as we've been discussing, VSL3 and/or calcium carbonate could also have been factors. At this point I don't know if I have h. pylori - and what I'm reading now suggests that h. pylori is protective against reflux, not a cause of it.

Like I said, I don't know which way is up any more!

It's also possible that the probiotics you're using contain one or more strains that are feeding it and may be more resilient and populous compared to other strains. I think with a little research in this direction you might be able to rebalance things. Just a thought. I hope you find your answer soon.

I think I'm going to have to re-read everything about SIBO/GERD/low acid/h. pylori/histamine and try to figure out a first step, but it's hard to know what to research without knowing the cause.

I have just started using RS/potato starch and other fibers and am in the process of trying to find the best balance myself. I don't want to spoil the good effects I've started getting!

P.S. - just editing to direct you to the Sanum Therapy thread, where more about prebiotics can be found.

Good luck! Really not sure what to do about other prebiotics. PS is a butyrate-producer so maybe I should be looking for something that does that without consisting of RS. Would that be pectin?

 

[Sasha]

How much pectin do you take, @Sidereal?

 

[Sidereal]

How much pectin do you take, @Sidereal?

I don't know if apple pectin will give you the same results as beet. Modified citrus pectin, for instance, destroyed me a few of weeks ago. I posted about my crash here.

I've taken anywhere from 5 to 15 grams of beet a day with no problem except some sleepiness at first (nice sedating effect so perhaps best to take at bedtime, initially at first). I felt a bit itchy the first couple of times I took it. I usually get a histamine reaction to novel foods or supplements. I wouldn't recommend starting anywhere near this dose, who knows how you'd react.

Have you tried PPIs or H2 antagonists?

Edit: I also did badly with baobab pectin a few days ago. They all clearly do very different things.

 

[melamine]

PS is a butyrate-producer so maybe I should be looking for something that does that without consisting of RS. Would that be pectin?

I still need to review my information about the different kinds and do more research myself. The main advice is not to rely on a single one and to stop and reassess if problems develop. Here is one of the guides I'm relying on in addition to information on here and the Sanum thread.
http://www.gestaltreality.com/2014/02/27/resistant-starch-a-concise-guide/

 

[Sasha]

I don't know if apple pectin will give you the same results as beet. Modified citrus pectin, for instance, destroyed me a few of weeks ago. I posted about my crash here.

I'll look back - are you OK now?

I've taken anywhere from 5 to 15 grams of beet a day with no problem except some sleepiness at first (nice sedating effect so perhaps best to take at bedtime, initially at first). I felt a bit itchy the first couple of times I took it. I usually get a histamine reaction to novel foods or supplements. I wouldn't recommend starting anywhere near this dose, who knows how you'd react.

Useful to know. Would you say the results have been as good as the PS you were replacing?

Have you tried PPIs or H2 antagonists?

No - I read that both reduce the amount of acid in the stomach.

Edit: I also did badly with baobab pectin a few days ago. They all clearly do very different things.

Sorry to hear that too!

 

[Sidereal]

I'll look back - are you OK now?

Useful to know. Would you say the results have been as good as the PS you were replacing?

I'm grand, thanks for asking. I was just pointing out that not all pectin is the same.

I still take PS a couple of times a week. I never really took it more frequently than that. Beet has raised my blood pressure more than PS ever did (I have low BP so a good thing) though PS at higher doses suppresses my pulse (I have POTS) better. What sorts of OI issues do you have?

 

[Sasha]

Glad to hear you're better, @Sidereal. I'm wondering if others have your same experience that they can try a prebiotic (as opposed to a probiotic) and if it goes wrong, recover to baseline. If so, I think I'd be a bit braver (but not much, clearly!).

I have slightly low BP and delayed orthostatic intolerance - heart rate goes up and up and up on standing, but not as abruptly as most people's - get very thirsty overnight and always have to get up to pee so I'm assuming possibly hypovolemia too.

 

[Sasha]

I'm wondering if others have your same experience that they can try a prebiotic (as opposed to a probiotic) and if it goes wrong, recover to baseline.

Actually, would that be an interesting poll question? What do people think?

 

[melamine]

I just started PS a week ago (following a week of Clindamycin), and although I tolerated it at the higher recommended doses, I was advised to reduce and moderate it with inulin, apple pectin, FOS, larch arabinogalactan, psyllium, beet root.

I had arabinogalactan, psyllium, and beet root on hand and have started using them at the same time as I cut back to 2 Tbsp. of PS, taken in a single dose around 6pm + 3/4 scoop of arabinogalactan + about a tsp of psyllium (so far) + some probiotics, all about 20-30 minutes before a meal. I usually save a small amount of the prebiotic mixture in water to take with food. Some of the 7 probiotics that I alternate to 3-4 kinds at a time have FOS or other prebiotic in them and I usually use a small amount of beet root in my salad daily (1-2 grams), but will experiment with adding it to the other mix now. In addition, most mornings I have cooked cereal that is 1/2 oat bran.

I've begun using a variety of low strength probiotics three times a day and often add in a small amount of one or more of the fibers.

The first thing I experienced with PS was the welcome effect of increasing and normalizing my bowel movements. After the first couple days came some strange, uncomfortable mental effects and increased neurological symptoms for the next 2-3 days, followed by a noticeable brightening effect on my mood the past two days.

From what others are posting of their experiences, I agree @Sasha that it's hard to gauge how much to use how often, and for how long before modifying. As you say -

n=1 is problematic, I think - our guts seem to be all over the place.

 

[Sidereal]

Actually, would that be an interesting poll question? What do people think?

I don't know if enough people have experimented with this stuff to get meaningful poll results.

 

[Sasha]

I don't know if enough people have experimented with this stuff to get meaningful poll results.

Hard to know - there's certainly a shedload of people on this thread (I started counting once and got over 50 by the time I stopped - don't know if they're all still reading it.

If I did it, I'm wondering what a good question would be. Maybe, 'If you've tried prebiotics and have had bad effects, how long before you returned to baseline?'

And response options of:

• 1-3 days
• 4-7 days
• 8-14 days
• 14-30 days
• over a month
• never
• I've never had bad effects

Does that look reasonable? If so, I'll get a poll going.

 

[Sasha]

Argh... just found this NHS thing all about people using calcium carbonate as ANTACIDS which is what I've been accidentally doing for three months:

http://www.nhs.uk/medicine-guides/pages/MedicineOverview.aspx?medicine=Calcium carbonate antacids

and I'm just searching on what people say about how long it takes acid rebound to clear up after stopping. Although I found loads of stuff about that for PPIs, I can't find anything for calcium carbonate but found this:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/541888-can-taking-calcium-tablets-cause-heartburn/

According to National Public Radio, some research suggests that consistent use of calcium to treat heartburn could lead to an increase in stomach acid production and worsened heartburn once you stop taking the supplement. According to research conducted at Copenhagen University in Denmark, a condition called "acid rebound" is likely to set in after use of calcium that lasts several months. This rebound occurs because the stomach has been trained to produce more acid to compensate for the presence of calcium. When calcium is then removed from the system, a large amount of stomach acid is produced, and the resulting heartburn can be even worse than it was prior to treatment.​

Great. Wonder how long it's going to take me to get back to what passes for normal.

 

[Sasha]

OK, so here's the poll:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...w-long-before-you-returned-to-baseline.36438/

Get stuck in, folks!

 

[Sidereal]

@Sasha, for what it's worth, I avoid calcium supplements like the plague. That calcium often doesn't go to your bones but ends up in arteries / soft tissue. Dairy gives me phlegm and brain fog and other problems but after years of avoidance I recently developed a sudden massive dairy craving which I interpreted as calcium deficiency. I've started drinking milk again and the craving disappeared.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha, for what it's worth, I avoid calcium supplements like the plague. That calcium often doesn't go to your bones but ends up in arteries / soft tissue. Dairy gives me phlegm and brain fog and other problems but after years of avoidance I recently developed a sudden massive dairy craving which I interpreted as calcium deficiency. I've started drinking milk again and the craving disappeared.

Were you OK with the milk?

 

[Sidereal]

Were you OK with the milk?

I have a bit more phlegm but it's manageable. Nothing like what happens if I eat cheese or yoghurt - totally spaced out with brain fog.

 

[ahmo]

@Sasha I take my Ca carbonate in footbaths, bypasses stomach.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha I take my Ca carbonate in footbaths, bypasses stomach.

Sounds like a plan!

I've got some calcium citrate on order, which has no effect on stomach acidity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_citrate

 

[Vegas]

So you would say that increasing Tregs is a good thing for ME/CFS, keeping in mind those studies that have showed elevated levels? I'm confused because increased Tregs just doesn't fit the picture of the hyperimmune/inflammatory nature of ME/CFS. I feel like I need less immune activation, not more. I have seasonal allergies which definitely points to low IL-10 and Tregs.

I cannot do justice to this question in the amount of time I have, but a couple of things. The Treg equation is not only tissue specific, and antigen specific, but the functional abilities of these cells is dependent upon mitochondrial energy potential. In this regard, a set concentration of these immune cells cannot be compared to numbers measured in controls or other disease states without measuring intracellular energy dynamics. You can increase Foxp3+ Tregs, but the functional ability of those cells is dependent upon the host's mitochondrial energy metabolism. I think this correlates to other immune cell types in ME/CFS as well. It's illogical to think that a patient population with such impaired bioenergetics is going to have Tregs that function with the same vigor.

One thing that I believe is missing are some of the microbial metabolic products that are required to enhanced the electron transport chain and stabilize oxidative phosphorylation, which will, in theory, allow for these T-regs to function appropriately. When this happens so changes the other energy-driven correlating processes, like the synthesis of methyltetrahydrofolate, which has a higher affinity for folate receptors than less reduced forms of folate and functions to maintain greater cellular proliferation of Tregs. Is this good or bad, well it depends on a host of other factors. We want optimal Treg function, and the only way this happens is with the right microbial balance.

I will go into more detail when I get few more minutes.

 

[Vegas]

I can't find any clear data on that. I wouldn't be too worried about it though. If it has a negative effect it is likely nothing compared to taking abx. Some even claim it has prebiotic effects.

Well, yes and no. Limonene is the most biologically active component in essential citrus oils (AnnelikesRed is our witness), so don't take it lightly.

Is it a prebiotic, yes. Rhodococcus & some Pseudomonas. VERY strong activity against Candida, which implies to me that the commensals that metabolize it have a functional ability to carry out some of those roles that Candida does for the host.