Substantial improvement with (strange) dietary adjustments

[Wonkmonk]

I found out that it seems I cannot add sweet potato to either porridge nor pasta with tomato sauce. I suspect that Beta Carotin must not be combined with arginine-rich foods.

Sweet potato and Kale still appears to work, presumably because that dish is overall very low in protein.

 

[xploit316]

I found out that it seems I cannot add sweet potato to either porridge nor pasta with tomato sauce. I suspect that Beta Carotin must not be combined with arginine-rich foods.

Sweet potato and Kale still appears to work, presumably because that dish is overall very low in protein.

@Wonkmonk Was reading an earlier article you posted few years back about how you tackled low iron symptoms with dietary changes. Are your iron levels alright now?

 

[Wonkmonk]

@Wonkmonk Are your iron levels alright now?

Hmmm...well, they *should* be ok, but good that you mention this, I should check them again since I'm now on a vegan diet for a while. On paper, my diet should contain enough iron from whole grains, but bioavailabiliy is poor, so it's probably good to check. Especially as I have now eliminated most nuts and seeds.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Much of this whole dietary thing seems to be focused very much on protein, so if you're late to the thread, ignore that list at the beginning.

I'm still fascinated by the fact that now that I'm on a low lysine diet, I can suddenly tolerate vitamin D (from sun) and calcium supplements even in high doses.

I am very confident that Lysine is in fact the culprit because when I cut out high-lysine foods (which is essentially all animal protein plus legumes, beans, peas, soy products and lentils) I got much better, even if I replaced them with similar amounts of protein from grains (e.g., oats), which are low in lysine.

But I am now convinced there is at least one more amino acid that's problematic and that I have to reduce. I strongly suspect arginine. It must be one that's high in grains, nuts and seeds for all those seem to cause symptoms except macadamia nuts which are famously low in protein, especially arginine and methionine. Walnuts, which I had on the green list for a while, have 3-4 times as much arginine as macadamias.

I don't think it's glutamine because shiitake in fairly high amounts don't seem to be causing symptoms, and they are relatively high in glutamine (umami taste).

Interestingly, when I go lower on high arginine foods (nuts, seeds, whole grains), PEM gets MUCH better. I have even started to excercise a bit. Veeeery low intensity, like 5 push-ups a day or so.

Meanwhile I have put sauerkraut (caused symptoms, unclear why) and cocoa produts, esp. raw cacao powder, on the red list. I suspect fermented foods are bad in general and raw cacao powder contains a high amount of arginine by weight. I suspect that fermentation of arginine (or another non-lysine amino acid) is a problem because although raw cacao is high in arginine, the serving size was actually too low to cause such strong symptoms. It may also be the caffeine/theobromine compounds in the cacao...who knows. Whatever the reason, it's on the dark red list for now.

The problem is, I can't go low on protein forever. One, a get cravings, and two, although arginine is nonessential, I find it impossible to find foods that are low in arginine, but reasonably high in the other essential amino acids. That's why I will probably end up with a certain amount of arginine in my diet no matter what.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I still have a small hope that maybe other intolerances (acidic fruit, spices, greens most importantly) disappear with a low protein diet just as the problem with calcium miraculously disappeared when I went low on lysine.

That's not the case so far, but I am just beginning to restrict arginine.

 

[Wishful]

I find it impossible to find foods that are low in arginine, but reasonably high in the other essential amino acids.

The same problem I have regarding proline: if something has significant protein, it almost assuredly has significant amounts of proline. I can survive on a low-protein diet with supplemental pure AAs, but that is in no way as satisfying as real food.

I wasn't paying attention to arginine, so I didn't notice any foods with unusually low arginine/other AA ratios. It would be handy to have a list of foods that have unusually low ratios for various nutrients.

 

[Wonkmonk]

The same problem I have regarding proline: if something has significant protein, it almost assuredly has significant amounts of proline. I can survive on a low-protein diet with supplemental pure AAs, but that is in no way as satisfying as real food.

That's similar to what I'm doing currently. I go with low protein foods mostly. Avocados and macadamias have a very low protein content per calorie. Fruit, too, but I also have problems with fructose and acids, so I limit those as well.

My current theory is that the problem is some kind of bacterial fermentation product that comes from the microbiome. So, it's not just the protein per se, but it needs a substrate of fermentable carbohydrates/fibres.

For instance, one of the worst foods I can eat is soy (or legumes in general). Legumes have high protein AND high fiber. But I have much less of a reaction to cheese, which contains much more protein, esp. lysine, but doesn't come with fibre.

I have experimented with replacing wholegrain bread/pasta with white bread/pasta (), and it seems I can tolerate the white stuff better, presumably because the arginine contained in these foods doesn't come with as much fermentable fibre, so less of the offending compound (whatever it is) is produced.

This could also explain the problem with fructose as fructose in higher amounts isn't fully absorbed. Some of it goes into the microbiome and can serve as a substrate for the production of whatever protein fermentation product makes me so much worse. On the other hand, glucose and thoroughly cooked starch is absorbed almost completely...remember I was having problems with undercooked starches and have to cook everything very thoroughly. That might be the reason.

I am currently experimenting with these foods/meals:

1, Avocado, banana (3 ripe bananas max so as the fructose can be absorbed), oat milk, all mixed together into a liquid-meal smoothie.

2. Guacamole (avocado, garlic, salt) and white bread

3. Fried mushrooms (shiitake, cremini, fried in grapeseed oil with salt) with a nutritional yeast-based sauce and white pasta (this is lots of protein actually, but it seems like I can tolerate some of it)

4. White pasta with tomato paste and some veggies (zucchini, eggplant) and some spices (fresh thyme, rosemary and garlic).

5. Eat one mango only so as to not overload fructose and flush it down with oat milk. Oat milk contains glucose from natural fermentation and glucose in turn helps fructose absorption.

What's puzzling is how well I can tolerate oat milk, given that oats have protein, fibre and oat milk is a fermented product. Strange...the theory doesn't really fit completely yet.

 

[Wishful]

My current theory is that the problem is some kind of bacterial fermentation product that comes from the microbiome.

I've had that theory on my mind too, since my recent sensitivity to oats. I'm also more sensitive to whole wheat flour than white flour, and I'm possibly feeling worse from ground chia seeds. I don't seem to be sensitive to psyllium powder, so maybe the type of fibre matters. Soluble, insoluble, prebiotic, beta-glucan; there are significant differences between 'fibre-rich' foods. There are even differences in the specific types of beta-glucans: 1-3, 1-4. and 1-6 (molecular arrangements). A quick review turned up that baker's yeast is rich in beta-glucan, so I'll give that a try (I have some on -hand) to see how I react to it.

Dietary fibre can influence the immune system, so that's something to keep in mind.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I don't seem to be sensitive to psyllium powder, so maybe the type of fibre matters. Soluble, insoluble, prebiotic, beta-glucan; there are significant differences between 'fibre-rich' foods. There are even differences in the specific types of beta-glucans: 1-3, 1-4. and 1-6 (molecular arrangements). A quick review turned up that baker's yeast is rich in beta-glucan, so I'll give that a try (I have some on -hand) to see how I react to it.

That's fascinating because psyllium husk is NOT a fermentable fiber. The microbiome cannot use it. It helps with digestion, but it doesn't feed the bugs. I absolutely believe that the type of fiber matters. Or the substrate in general, as I mentioned, fructose, which is not entirely absorbed in larger amounts and then goes into the microbiome, also appears to cause symptoms for me.

I seem to be able to tolerate nutritional yeast and mushrooms, so I don't think Beta Glucan per se is a problem.

I think I have to separate foods that contain sugar from grains. That includes onions and tomatos, which have a good amount of sugar.

I am also currently experimenting with not drinking during/after meals and generally keeping them amount of free liquid low. If there is a lot of water with the food, the water goes into the small intestine rather quickly (the stomach is like a sieve) and fermentation can happen there. Fermentation usually doesn't happen a lot in the stomach beacuse the low ph is bacteriostatic. So the goal would be to have as many nutrients as possible being absorbed (esp. sugar) before the food reaches the small intestine and fermentation can start there.

 

[xploit316]

@Wonkmonk Do you have issues with glutamate? Apparantly Lysine acts as precursor to glutamate.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11163791/

 

[Wonkmonk]

@Wonkmonk Do you have issues with glutamate?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11163791/

I think I don't actually, though I took it once as a supplement and it made me worse, but I can eat mushrooms and nutritional yeast, at least in some amounts.

But maybe I should cut down on those and check if it makes me better.

The problem is I have so few foods that I can eat, so killing mushrooms and nooch would be tough. But I really should try it, you're right.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Hmmm Glutamate is in many foods that I find problematic, such as grains, especially those containing gluten, nuts and seeds. Maybe I should have a closer look at it.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Maybe I was barking on the wrong tree and the problem is indeed glutamine and not arginine. For most foods, this would not be very consequential as nuts, seeds and grains are usually high in both glutamine and arginine.

But maybe I should go lower on yeast and, possibly, mushrooms, which are high in glutamine. Especially yeast...glutamine is the whole point of yeast extract, so that's maybe a thing.

Thanks so much for the suggestion, @xploit316.

 

[Wishful]

I absolutely believe that the type of fiber matters.

I tried wheat bran yesterday, and felt groggier and more slugging this morning. It wasn't as bad as from oats. After my trip to town, it occurred to me that pectin would be another fibre (soluble) to test. Next trip. However, pectin varies with its source, so apple pectin might create a different response than orange rind pectin.

 

[Wonkmonk]

it occurred to me that pectin would be another fibre (soluble) to test. Next trip. However, pectin varies with its source, so apple pectin might create a different response than orange rind pectin.

That's a fascinating idea. My impression is that apples, raspberries and oranges have an especially bad impact. All contain pectin if I remember correctly. On the other hand, mangos and bananas can be much better tolerated, and if I'm not mistaken, they don't contain a lot of pectin.

The type of fibre (or more broadly the fermentation substrate) definitely matters. Also for yoghurt. I can tolerate cow milks yoghurt reasonably well (fermentation of lactose), but cannot tolerate soy yoghurt at all (fermentation of starches and legume fibres).

I think your observation is very important.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I think the amount in one meal and the speed of absorption is also important, i.e., three times 3 oz. of pasta in a day is probably better than 9 oz. in one single meal. Fried mushrooms is also probably better than nutritional yeast, which readily dissolves into the sauce and presumably is being absorbed more quickly.

I think what's causing some of the problem is "excess protein" i.e., overwhelming the body with protein it can't immediately use all of. I suspect that the virus that's causing the symptoms (my hypothesis is it's a chronic viral disaease) can use the excess protein for its replication. I have no solid evidence for this hypothesis though. But it's my gut feeling that this is what's happening.

Anyway, I will try to reduce meal sizes, especially with those with high protein and fibre content.

 

[JES]

I would certainly think it's more likely there is a common factor X, or two or three, somewhere among all your dietary adjustments rather than them all alone having some unique impact. It would make more sense as per Occam's razor.

I generally feel better after fasting or not eating much at all, but obviously that only works for a short period of time. Since I feel worse in ketosis, it's not maintainable. I also noticed temporary improvement in most symptoms while being constipated and the final thing I managed to actually maintain improvement from was from avoiding complex carbohydrates in general, which feed the microbiome, so I think you are onto something with the idea that it could be a metabolite or something arising from the microbiome.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Hi JES,

thanks so much for your comment.

I would certainly think it's more likely there is a common factor X, or two or three, somewhere among all your dietary adjustments rather than them all alone having some unique impact. It would make more sense as per Occam's razor.

I always hoped that this is the case, because it would likely simplify things, and for a moment, I was hopeful that protein restriction could be the one underlying factor.

What made me very hopeful was that I always had problems with vitamin D and calcium. I couldn't go higher than 25 ng/ml VD and 600-700mg of calcium, which likely isn't enough, especially as I have a high salt diet. But since I restricted Lysine, I have no problem with Vitamin D or calcium whatsoever. I get daily sunlight exposure and take 800mg of Calcium in supplements alone.

My hope was that when I maybe restrict other proteins that all the other intolerances would similarly disappear.

But those hopes have been dashed a bit in recent weeks as I restricted protein and still found some foods to make me worse. For example, it doesn't seem to be glutamine that caused my problems in the last few weeks. It seems it was carrots and sweet potatos (I suspect Beta Carotin as the culprit). I removed it from my diet and suddenly getting better even though I had mushrooms and yeast again today (= lots of Glutamine). So Beta Carotin containing foods make me worse even when I restrict all protein.

Nightshades (except tomatos) and undercooked starches also seem to be problematic.

One factor that seems to make me worse no matter what (non-dietary) is a non-perfectly balanced thyroid hormone level (I no longer have a thyroid and need thyroxine hormone replacement). I need a TSH between 0,3 and 0,7. All else makes me worse no matter what. This is unlikely to be related to diet at all, so it must be more than dietary factors. I also have PEM, strongly exacerbated when I get my diet wrong and I seem to get worse when the temperature of my bedroom is too high.

So all in all, I have given up hope that I could find the one or two dietary factors (e.g., just two amino acids or something) that would somehow cure me. Even with the dietary stuff, it's really hard to see what the two or three underlying factors could be.

I generally feel better after fasting or not eating much at all, but obviously that only works for a short period of time. Since I feel worse in ketosis, it's not maintainable.

Wow...same. Fasting for a while is ok, presumably because whatever dietary factor is responsible is absent when I fast, but fasting for too long and I get worse. Maybe because of Ketosis. In the time when I had the least symptoms, I ate a lot of starchy carbs, possibly because that prevents ketosis. That's a very good point.

the final thing I managed to actually maintain improvement from was from avoiding complex carbohydrates in general, which feed the microbiome, so I think you are onto something with the idea that it could be a metabolite or something arising from the microbiome.

That's interesting...have you tried to cook the carbs very thoroughly? Because thoroughly cooked starch is very well absorbed and not much should reach the microbiome. I get worse when I eat undercooked starches, possibly because they don't get absorbed and then feed the microbiome.

But with that metabolite, I strongly feel like it's something that everyone produces and that's not a problem for ordinary people. I suspect that something else is going on in my body that leads to a situation in which this compound is suddenly a problem. Like celiac disease in which Gluten suddenly is problematic, while it's no problem for healthy people. I think so because soy yoghurt is so problematic, and the bugs used to make soy yoghurt are ubiquitous. Everyone has them. Therefore I don't think I have some sort of bad bug in my microbiome that's causing the problem.

It could be an autoimmune issue, though I have no known autoantibodies, and A LOT of those were tested. I find some similarities to the stories of Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson, though their dietary approch differs radically from mine. I rather think that a virus is chronically active and that the virus uses certain amino acids for replication and certain other compounds for reactivation.

Like EBV is activated by Butyrate for instance. There are compounds that serve as reactivation triggers for certain viruses. I think that's most likely what's going on. And for those who don't have that chronic viral infection, these compounds are innocuous.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I will try to avoid most carotinoids, which is most orange foods (beta carotin), but also greens and tomato products (lycopine).

I will first check if the problem is in the microbiome, in which case I would have to avoid them completely, or if the problem is after absorption.

In the latter case, I could probably still eat these foods, but I would have to rigorously separate them from fat. Carotinoid absorption is up to 10 times higher if fat is present, especially if the fat is cooked with the carotinoid-containing foods. So just losing the fat in my spaghetti might do the trick, or so I hope.

This also means I will have to regularly supplement Vitamins A and K.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Now that I (think I) have identified carotinoids, especially Beta Carotin, as the culprit that causes my current worsening/symptoms, I have to retest every assumption I made over the past few weeks as I cannot be sure if that were real effects or just side effects of the varying amounts of carotinoid intake.

That's what makes it so complicated. It's very difficult to test individual foods, much less individual compounds within foods, because of the time lag of the effects and the difficulty in separating the foods.

At least I might be able to go back to whole wheat pasta and bread. Maybe it wasn't the fiber and it was all about the carotinoids.