Staph vaccine to treat CFS??

[hvac14400]

Are you mis-translating the word "frozen" by any chance?

no.
i just don't know how exactly prof G stores his vaccs - the shelf life is 2y at 2-8deg, so you saying he just extends that like 2 times, 3 times, 5 times - whatever many times he wants, right? while storing them at specified by the manufacturer temperatures.
i was under impression that this is somewhat "silly" and he doesn't doing this : )

 

[Hip]

the shelf life is 2y at 2-8deg,

That's just the shelf life the manufacturer stipulates. That does not mean that the vaccine will be ineffective after 2 years.

A few years ago the US military, which like most militaries need to stockpile all sorts of pharmaceutical products for their soldiers, conducted some research to investigate how long pharmaceuticals remain viable for (ie, how long the active ingredient remains intact). They discovered that nearly all pharmaceuticals remain viable for many, many years longer than the manufacturer's shelf life date.

One exception is the antibiotic doxycycline, which slowly degrades to a slightly toxic metabolite, so you should never use doxycycline after its expiry date.

 

[hvac14400]

That's just the shelf life the manufacturer stipulates. That does not mean that the vaccine will be ineffective after 2 years.

i understand that, just don't understand how it can be effective enough after 10 years and even more - thanx to the merсury in it? : )
in any case it's very good news if prof G would be able to test isolated staph alpha-toxin.

 

[Hip]

i understand that, just don't understand how it can be effective enough after 10 years and even more

You saw in that article that toxoid vaccines were still reasonably viable after 7 years, even when stored at room temperature (20 to 25ºC).

So it does not take a great stretch of the imagination to realize that when stored at the optimum refrigerated temperature of 2 to 8ºC, a toxoid vaccine may well last for a decade or two.

It is clear from that document that toxoids are pretty stable.

 

[hvac14400]

You saw in that article that toxoid vaccines were still reasonably viable after 7 years, even when stored at room temperature (20 to 25ºC).

no.

4.4 Summary
Diphtheria and tetanus toxoids are some of the most stable vaccines in common use. They are stable at temperatures of 2 to 8°C for years, at room temperature for months

The toxoid components of DTP or DTP-polio vaccines show an insignificant decrease in potency when stored for 1.5 years at 18°C (130), for 6 to 12 months at 24°C (136)

so no years at room temperature.

The potency of tetanus components of adsorbed DTP or DTP-poliomyelitis vaccines does not show significant change at temperatures in the range 4°C to 8°C for three to seven years (80, 83, 130, 146).

only in freezer.
but all this irrelevant, coz shipping time is less than a month anyway.

 

[Hip]

so no years at room temperature.

I don't think you are reading it correctly. What you quoted says toxoid show an insignificant decrease in potency when for 6 to 12 months at 24°C.

So from this statement we know there is almost no decrease in potency when these toxoids are stored for a year at 24°C.

And the other statement I quoted earlier said that toxoid potency was only reduced by a half (which may be still quite viable), after up to 7 years at 20 to 25ºC.

 

[hvac14400]

I don't think you are reading it correctly. What you quoted says toxoid show an insignificant decrease in potency when for 6 to 12 months at 24°C.

i will quote the summary of that entire chapter for you one more time

4.4 Summary
Diphtheria and tetanus toxoids are some of the most stable vaccines in common use. They are stable at temperatures of 2 to 8°C for years, at room temperature for months

and if you wanna use 50% effective drug - go for it, you can inject half a dose for example. but it isn't the way i prefer doing things, sorry : )

Other studies, however, have shown higher heat lability.

so all this depends also on the manufacturing processes, and since i don't think they are the same around the globe, i prefer to get some safe margin - the more the better.
ymmv.

 

[Hip]

You are bringing more confusion than clarity here, @hvac14400.

 

[hvac14400]

i think that only your foggy cfs brain is what confused here, but that's explainable and acceptable - it's just a part of the disease.
am starting to agree with Jonathan Edwards more and more with time, which i never thought in the beginning of all this.
sorta sad thingy.

 

[Hip]

i think that only your foggy cfs brain is what confused here, but that's explainable and acceptable - it's just a part of the disease.

I don't think it is me who is having bad brain fog day.

You are quoting the timespans for which there is a guaranteed 100% stability of the toxoids. But we don't need to keep to such high standards, so these figures are not really appropriate.

If the vaccine loses some of its potency over the years, and goes down to 80% or 50% potency, the vaccine is still going to be usable, even if you may have to increase the dose slightly to compensate.

So the timespans I pointed out earlier in this post are the most appropriate.

 

[hvac14400]

If the vaccine loses some of its potency over the years, and goes down to 80% or 50% potency, the vaccine is still going to be usable

where you got this statement? specify your source.
are you an immunologist to claiming something?

At each impact of the increased temperature on a vaccine there is a destruction of part of anti-gene material therefore even if any residual activity remains, the immunizing effect of such vaccine will be reduced to a minimum.

http://allimmunology.org/vakciny-ispolzuemye-v-rpi/stabilnost-vakcin

Moreover, after each influence of the increased temperature her adverse influence on residual immunogene activity accumulates.

as about brain fog - never had this before.

 

[JES]

I don't understand the issue here. If you are concerned about decrease in potency just store it in the fridge then, as everything that I've quickly read suggests these vaccines will last for years in fridge. Rather than this debate, I would be more interested in hearing if it improves any symptoms.

I would love to get access to this treatment as it's one of the most promising for CFS, however, I'm not going to risk importing it to Finland unless there is strong evidence for it, as you may get busted here even for importing things like Melatonin or GABA.

 

[hvac14400]

in this work

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/staph-vaccine-to-treat-cfs.3788/page-18#post-709173
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/staph-vaccine-to-treat-cfs.3788/page-18#post-709177

Semenova said, that

оба препарата - АСО и ЛИКОПИД при определенных условиях могут вызывать нежелательные эффекты - усугубление существующей супрессии (АСО ) или активацию латентной иммуносупрессии

АСО=anatoxin

and this effect is dose-dependent, so messing around with vacc potency you are lowering its binding units, thus effectively playing russian roulette, according to quote above
so good luck to ya.

 

[hvac14400]

If you are concerned about decrease in potency

i am concerned about other, more important things, for example about making somebodys immune status much worse than now, so this would be the last post from me in this topic

anybody can take whatever they want, but

I appreciate that people like to chat about these things but if it is an exchange of scientifically erroneous pseudofacts and we are talking about something potentially lethal I worry. Is everyone quite happy now that potassium supplements can kill you?

lol.
am outta here.

 

[JES]

Ok, I got a bit confused, because the last page of this thread is only discussing potency. Playing russian roulette, that would be if the vaccine kills you when it gets old. If you really have concerns about immune status, then I don't understand why you went through all this effort to order this vaccine. None of the 100 CFS patients that took part in Prof. Gottfries staph toxoid trial in 2002 (link) developed any immune deficiency.

 

[hvac14400]

None of the 100 CFS patients that took part in Prof. Gottfries staph toxoid trial in 2002 (link) developed any immune deficiency.

lol - how much of that 100 patients used toxoid, which was stored at room temp for years, as Hip suggests? zero.
and i have immune deficiency already, but this is not about me.

If you really have concerns about immune status, then I don't understand why you went through all this effort to order this vaccine.

once again - it's not about me (i know how to use this vacc properly and will use it in that way), it's about ppl who don't have immunodeficiency, yet : )

Ok, I got a bit confused

there is enough info in this thread already.

 

[Hip]

where you got this statement? specify your source.

Did you not study percentages when you were at school, @hvac14400? If I have 15 apples, and I lose 20%, how many apples do I have left?

Have you started taking some drug or supplement that is disagreeable with you, because your posts have suddenly taken a turn for the negative?

 

[JES]

I think it's some kind of misunderstanding going on. AFAIK medicines/vaccines very rarely get "dangerous" when they get old, they just lose their potency. Which is not at all "playing russian roulette", it just means your original symptoms will return. Simply to order a new batch then, problem solved. I think people here would be thrilled if they managed to find a cure even if the medicine lasted only 2 months in fridge. This is really a non-issue.

 

[Hip]

This is really a non-issue.

Indeed, it is completely a non-issue.

The only reason I quoted that article on vaccine thermostability was to point out it is unlikely that a toxoid vaccine will be damaged during the 2 or 3 weeks of exposure to room temperature when sent through international mail.

Thus the approach that I was using before, which was employing the fast but expensive DHL courier to ship the vaccine internationally in 2 days, in order to minimize room temperature exposure, is most likely completely unnecessary.

Normal international mail should suffice.

 

[Hip]

I just took another dose of the vaccine a few days ago: I have now moved up to an 0.8 ml dose, which is getting close to the full 1.0 ml dose.

I have started to notice a certain pattern in my responses to these vaccine injections: what I am finding is that on the day after the injection, my mood is bright and elevated, and in addition it feels like my ME/CFS has improved; my mind is clearer, and it seems like I am moving towards remission.

However, that feeling only lasts for one day, and then by the second and subsequent days after the injection, my ME/CFS seems to return, and it remains that way for the rest of the week, until the next injection.

So there is some positive effect, but in general there does not yet seem to be any sustained improvements to my ME/CFS.