Seborrheic Dermatitis

[Valentijn]

My doctor told me this. My friend confirmed it.

Do your doctor and "friend" have magical powers which allow them to know a specific SNP is relevant when there is no research showing that it has any impact?

 

[MeSci]

A slight improvement in energy, but I was taking lots of other things as well. I did not notice an improvement in skin issues. However my skin issues improve when I stop taking blood pressure meds.

Which type of blood pressure meds? I know that you were on an ACE inhibitor - did you continue taking this?

 

[MeSci]

None of those people in those threads said they were taking it for seb derm. That is the crucial difference. I laid out the evidence fair enough, plus it fixed me. Plus the first woman had side effects from the potassium, not the biotin.

I am not saying you should start at 5000mcg, I am just saying you will not see changes till you get to at least that dose, that is what the doctor who invented the biotinidase test that is giving to infants told me personally.

Safety should take priority over efficacy in the first instance unless one needs to treat something urgently. That's why we should start low when we try something (and I have tried a lot of things for various symptoms, like many/most of us). My own arguments for starting low are (apart from increased sensitivity to substances in ME):

• I don't know if I have seborrheic dermatitis.
• I don't think my skin/hair condition is genetic, as I am in my 60s and have rarely had skin problems, my nails are strong, etc.
• I don't know if I am deficient in biotin
  
• My current suspicion is that my change in diet in 2012 (increased fat) may have increased my need for biotin.
• I have had recent serious - and still undiagnosed - neurological problems, which resembled stroke and have involved emergency hospitalisation. So safety must be paramount for me.
• Due to these differences from your situation, if I do need biotin I may not need as much.
• We are all individuals!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I found this review paper has the best explanation for unregulated epithelial cell proliferation (dermatitis included) matching to my personal observations (both for me and DH):

Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A 136 (2003) 95–112

Hyperinsulinemic diseases of civilization: more than just Syndrome X <= full text available here
Loren Cordain*, Michael R. Eades, Mary D. Eades
Department of Health and Exercise Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA

Abstract
Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well-recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well-established growth-promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and androgens, while simultaneously reducing insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor a, insulin-mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body’s endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues, the clinical course of which may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X.
Keywords: Acne; Early menarche; Epithelial cell carcinomas; Hyperinsulinemia; Increased stature; Myopia; Cutaneous papillomas (skin tags); Acanthosis nigricans; Polycystic ovary syndrome; Male vertex balding

In the past 7 months we haven't had a single dermatitis outburst - ever since we starting eating 2 eggs daily (with well cooked whites and runny yolks for improved Biotin bioavailability). We do not eat a low carb diet since it didn't work for neither of us, but we eat gluten free, soy free, milk free and no highly processed foods. However, eating dairy always cause me to have dandruff (all dairy is rich in growth hormone). I can't leave dairy out due to both oxalate and uric acid complications.

We can't take a single B vitamin longer than 3-4 days otherwise we get funky side effect - probably causing a deficiency in another B vit and/or mineral. So I have been juggling with food the past months. What works for me doesn't work for DH and vice-versa. He needs starch in the breakfast, I need it at dinner. He likes his eggs fried in butter for dinner, I like mine boiled in the morning, and so on

 

[MeSci]

I found this review paper has the best explanation for unregulated epithelial cell proliferation (dermatitis included) matching to my personal observations (both for me and DH):

In the past 7 months we haven't had a single dermatitis outburst - ever since we starting eating 2 eggs daily (with well cooked whites and runny yolks for improved Biotin bioavailability). We do not eat a low carb diet since it didn't work for neither of us, but we eat gluten free, soy free, milk free and no highly processed foods. However, eating dairy always cause me to have dandruff (all dairy is rich in growth hormone). I can't leave dairy out due to both oxalate and uric acid complications.

We can't take a single B vitamin longer than 3-4 days otherwise we get funky side effect - probably causing a deficiency in another B vit and/or mineral. So I have been juggling with food the past months. What works for me doesn't work for DH and vice-versa. He needs starch in the breakfast, I need it at dinner. He likes his eggs fried in butter for dinner, I like mine boiled in the morning, and so on

Do you and 'DH' (husband?) have hyperinsulinaemia? I don't think I have. My blood glucose has always tested OK (both in healthcare settings and at home) apart from briefly during one acute illness.

To clarify - are you consuming dairy, and getting dandruff because of it? (Personally I don't consume dairy.)

 

[Flo]

Do your doctor and "friend" have magical powers which allow them to know a specific SNP is relevant when there is no research showing that it has any impact?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I cannot reveal my contact or her work. I showed you all the evidence I can. there are a lot of people saying much less proven things on here yet you are focusing on me like a cat chasing a reflection on a wall.
Because 10000mcg ends my seb derm. When I stop it it comes back. You seem intelligent, help me look at the pathways that biotin effects.

 

[Valentijn]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

No, but an absence of evidence is an absence of evidence. You are making a scientific claim, but refusing to provide any evidence for it. It shouldn't be unexpected that such a claim is not afforded automatic respect.

When someone brings science into a discussion, as you have done with SNPs, there is every expectation that the science will be rigorously examined. That is how science works.

there are a lot of people saying much less proven things on here yet you are focusing on me like a cat chasing a reflection on a wall.

I have an interest in genetics, and a respect for the field. Accordingly, it annoys me when someone makes false or unsubstantiated claims regarding SNPs.

 

[Flo]

No, but an absence of evidence is an absence of evidence. You are making a scientific claim, but refusing to provide any evidence for it. It shouldn't be unexpected that such a claim is not afforded automatic respect.

When someone brings science into a discussion, as you have done with SNPs, there is every expectation that the science will be rigorously examined. That is how science works.

I have an interest in genetics, and a respect for the field. Accordingly, it annoys me when someone makes false or unsubstantiated claims regarding SNPs.

I am not making scientific claims, I am hypothesizing.

 

[Valentijn]

I am not making scientific claims, I am hypothesizing.

If it's a hypothesis, why are you using it as a basis for recommending a treatment?

 

[Flo]

If it's a hypothesis, why are you using it as a basis for recommending a treatment?

I am not recommending it for treatment, I am sharing so if people want to try it we can TEST the hypothesis. That is how science works; make a hypothesis, then test it. When those tests are repeatable and consistent, we have a theory.

 

[Valentijn]

I am not recommending it for treatment, I am sharing so if people want to try it we can TEST the hypothesis. That is how science works; make a hypothesis, then test it. When those tests are repeatable and consistent, we have a theory.

How many subjects do you need with or without seborrheic dermatitis to get a statistically significant result? Where is your study protocol posted? Who provided ethical approval for such a study? How are you diagnosing seborrheic dermatitis?

However he said that my heteozygous SNP in HLCS rs3787752 in combination with the BTD SNP is what causes the seb derm.

You're making a claim, not investigating something. You very clearly stated the SNP was relevant, based on someone else's claims.

 

[MeSci]

Note that eating omega 6 fatty acids will produce Anachidonic Acid.

And stress increases it as well
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16651022

Just a clarification - I can't access the full text, but the abstract refers to oxidative stress, which is a physiological phenomenon - it is not the same as what we usually mean by stress, i.e. psychological stress.

 

[MeSci]

I thought this morning that I will start taking a B complex instead of biotin on it's own. I think I need to do a complex first to cover perhaps any problems that may occur by taking a single B own it's own. It's that sensible I wonder? I am guessing here. I will add biotin later on and see how it goes.

I don't know - maybe it depends on what else you are taking.

I have looked at my multivitamin, and it contains high levels of most B vitamins (very high for some) except folic acid and biotin. I should be getting plenty of folate in my vegan diet, so maybe the high levels of the other Bs are a partial cause for apparent possible (relative?) biotin deficiency.

BTW I asked for Vitamins D and B12 to be tested when I gave blood samples recently, and B12 was above the normal range (doc said that if I took a lot of B12 there was no cause for concern) but I have started taking one of these tablets every other day instead of every day.

 

[MeSci]

I am not saying you should start at 5000mcg, I am just saying you will not see changes till you get to at least that dose, that is what the doctor who invented the biotinidase test that is giving to infants told me personally.

I don't think that you can know that. It will probably depend on the severity of deficiency, which may not be due to genetic causes in some people.

EDIT - just want to say that I do appreciate you starting this thread - it's thrown up some very interesting facts. I don't think you have strayed into blatant recommending, although I have sometimes felt an implicit pressure to start biotin at a higher dose than I feel comfortable with, but I may have imagined it!

 

[Flo]

Just a clarification - I can't access the full text, but the abstract refers to oxidative stress, which is a physiological phenomenon - it is not the same as what we usually mean by stress, i.e. psychological stress.

Psychological stress will increase ROS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14512175

 

[Gondwanaland]

Do you and 'DH' (husband?) have hyperinsulinaemia? I don't think I have. My blood glucose has always tested OK (both in healthcare settings and at home) apart from briefly during one acute illness.

Both Dear Husband and I always had blood glucose around 88-90, but had many signs (esp. dermatologic) of hyperinsulinemia. If you watch the video about it you will see that glucose might never get out of control while you can produce enough insulin to tame it. No doctor ever requested my insulin levels before i adopted a Paleo-ish diet. After that, whenever I had my fasting insulin tested, I got it below 10 (which is desirable). Last time DH had it checked it was close to 20 (which is undesirable). Now I know that the critical insulin value is actually the one 2 hours after glucose ingestion. It is alarming that doctors and patients think that blood sugar levels are reliable.

To clarify - are you consuming dairy, and getting dandruff because of it? (Personally I don't consume dairy.)

Yes.

 

[alex3619]

Which type of blood pressure meds? I know that you were on an ACE inhibitor - did you continue taking this?

Multiple variations of every single kind except diuretics. They all do it. So do blood thinners. I think my current med is a calcium channel blocker.

 

[rosie26]

I don't know - maybe it depends on what else you are taking.

I have looked at my multivitamin, and it contains high levels of most B vitamins (very high for some) except folic acid and biotin. I should be getting plenty of folate in my vegan diet, so maybe the high levels of the other Bs are a partial cause for apparent possible (relative?) biotin deficiency.

BTW I asked for Vitamins D and B12 to be tested when I gave blood samples recently, and B12 was above the normal range (doc said that if I took a lot of B12 there was no cause for concern) but I have started taking one of these tablets every other day instead of every day.

That's the thing, I have always been very careful with minerals and vitamins because it is all so complex. There are so many interactions between them all and my thought has been that the last thing I need is to provoke more imbalance. That's why I try to eat a wide variety of foods. But I understand many with gut problems cannot do that.

I was taking a liquid mineral supplement for a number of years but they stopped making it a few years ago. I did read that if you get your minerals right the vitamins should fall into place because the body makes the vitamins except for I think A,E,D? Can't remember the others. So you need the right balance of minerals available (minerals being the foundation) so that the body has what it needs to make the vitamins. I'm sure someone will correct me if that isn't right. But in saying all that we could have absorption problems.

Yes, my B12 levels have always tested ok, although I notice at the lower end of normal range mostly. I cook lambs fry (liver) and bacon about 4 times a month hoping to get a good bit of iron and B in.
Yes, I think that's a good idea missing a day. I do that too so not to overload.

I wish we had a magical food that has everything we need in it for our daily health. I should try to look up on the internet and see what foods are packed with the most nutrients. And try to capture the whole mineral and vitamin needs in a small number of foods. I don't know if that is possible. I'm sure someone would have worked all this out before now though.

 

[MeSci]

Psychological stress will increase ROS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14512175

That paper says that it reduced ROS:

The acute laboratory stress resulted in a suppressed circadian rhythm of ROS production and in a decreased overall formation of ROS throughout the day.

(Surprising, perhaps, but it was a very small study)

 

[Sidereal]

It is alarming that doctors and patients think that blood sugar levels are reliable.

Right. If you're extremely insulin resistant, but your pancreas is still working (i.e. you don't have type II diabetes yet), your insulin levels will be higher, maybe even extremely high, in order to keep your blood sugar levels appearing normal compared to someone else who is insulin sensitive and requires far less insulin to keep their BG at the same level as yours. Of course, no regular doctor tests for insulin levels so we're left with the mess we're in.