Rewinding your biological age

[Wishful]

Another way to look at cfsme is that it's a catabolic condition.

That's another possibility, but at this point unproven. Some PWME may have catabolic disorders (and others may not), but they may be downstream of ME's core dysfunction. So, antiaging treatments might reduce some ME symptoms for some people, but it's too early to say that those treatments might work directly on ME itself.

 

[Katt]

Hm so why hasn't Janet and Ron tried this on Whitney? Ron is a geneticist so this is right up his alley.

Assuming I am understanding the treatment correctly it would be illegal to administer in the US. It would be very expensive and difficult for them to go out of the country to try this and could potentially make him much worse.

 

[Katt]

That's another possibility, but at this point unproven. Some PWME may have catabolic disorders (and others may not), but they may be downstream of ME's core dysfunction. So, antiaging treatments might reduce some ME symptoms for some people, but it's too early to say that those treatments might work directly on ME itself.

I spent 2 years barely moving when i was at my most severe and a total of 10 years being unable to exercise. Oddly I didn't lose any noticeable muscle mass. It made going to doctors a real pain because they would look at me and say that I must clearly be very active and healthy! In my case my body seemed to have an inability to lose muscle mass, so I certainly don't think I have a catabolic disorder.

I agree that most anti-aging treatments are unlikely to make much of a difference for pwME but gene therapy could be a huge help. If we could identify which genes are defective and are keeping us sick then correcting those genes could help people slowly recover. Maybe someday gene therapy will be the answer.

 

[Oliver3]

Another way to look at cfsme is that it's a catabolic condition. This can lead to sarcopenia in aging as well as many other chronic health conditions.
Our catabolic conditions are outweighing our anabolic processes.

This is understandable especially when many with cfs have low anabolic hormones like dhea, testosterone and growth hormone and all are negatively effected in healthy people who have poor sleep, so image cfsme with chronically poor sleep.

Replacing these hormones to optimal levels isn't necessarily a cure but it can help reverse sarcopenia, reverse the balance of the body from catabolism to anabolism and this can help the body repair and heal from inflammation and oxidation. This can help the body retain nutrients better and use nutrients better ie nutrient partitioning. Just helping move the body from a stress and breaking down stage to a growth and repair stage.

This is a common strategy used in treating HIV pts along with directly treating HIV. Before there were antiretroviral drugs in HIV, anabolic steroids and growth hormone stopped and reversed the muscle wasting and in some cases improved immune function and anemia and also increased life span and quality of life.

So we can definitely borrow things like hormone replacement therapy from the antiaging crowd

You articulated what I was wanting to say but way better. People took the title a bit too literally.

Just like to add that regenerative medicine is also gene editing quite diverse issues.
We definitely have lost muscle mass tho and for that reason alone, using the techniques Liz Parrish is using would seem like a good treatment alongside anything else we do. It would perhaps also improve structure in the body and lessen compression syndromes, blood glucose issues etc etc

 

[Oliver3]

I spent 2 years barely moving when i was at my most severe and a total of 10 years being unable to exercise. Oddly I didn't lose any noticeable muscle mass. It made going to doctors a real pain because they would look at me and say that I must clearly be very active and healthy! In my case my body seemed to have an inability to lose muscle mass, so I certainly don't think I have a catabolic disorder.

I agree that most anti-aging treatments are unlikely to make much of a difference for pwME but gene therapy could be a huge help. If we could identify which genes are defective and are keeping us sick then correcting those genes could help people slowly recover. Maybe someday gene therapy will be the answer.

You will definitely have lost muscle mass if you didn't move for two years. Regardless of whether you went into a catabolic state.
If you watch one if those bioviva lectures, you'll find out how far along they're getting with disease states in general.
It IS the future of virtually all medicine.
What where taking now as medicine is basically gene therapy at a basic level.

Many people take say low dose naltrexone, which is trying to reverse the disease process that in most cases , ageing and attrition has caused.
If you can relengthen the tekemores etc al, how do we know it won't work

 

[heapsreal]

You articulated what I was wanting to say but way better. People took the title a bit too literally.

Just like to add that regenerative medicine is also gene editing quite diverse issues.
We definitely have lost muscle mass tho and for that reason alone, using the techniques Liz Parrish is using would seem like a good treatment alongside anything else we do. It would perhaps also improve structure in the body and lessen compression syndromes, blood glucose issues etc etc

I will had replacing anabolic hormones doesn't just build muscle tissue as others have mentioned. It improves general recovery processes, improves insulin sensitivity and glycogen storage and can increase creatine phosphate storage for short bursts of energy. Another benefit is that it can help increase endurance by increasing red blood cell counts and can be used to treat anaemia. The lack of activity many with cfsme have can put them at high risk of osteoporosis, so anabolism can help increase bone density. Another benefit of testosterone and dhea is they can improve dopamine levels, which can help increase energy and enhance mood and wellbeing. So it's more than muscle tissue involved that it can affect positively.

I don't know much about gene editing but it sounds interesting.
I'd also think stem cell treatments are also something we could possibly use that are common practice by the antiaging crowd.

I'm all for trying things used in other areas of medicine, especially because the science in cfsme, especially in actual treatments, is so slow .

 

[heapsreal]

That's another possibility, but at this point unproven. Some PWME may have catabolic disorders (and others may not), but they may be downstream of ME's core dysfunction. So, antiaging treatments might reduce some ME symptoms for some people, but it's too early to say that those treatments might work directly on ME itself.

I didn't mention it as a core dysfunction, but I'd bet the majority of moderate to severe cfsme pts have poor hormone profiles. Carefully treating them can improve one's quality of life.
I can't recall the guys name from PR here but he had severe pots/oi and had problems sitting for any considerable time. He aggressively treated all his hormones and got them into the high normal range. For him this drastically improved his symptoms and he was able to return to the gym and train hard etc. Not a cheap treatment, especially when growth hormone is involved but I guess he was lucky he had the resources to afford it.

It's not going to pan out a miracle for everyone buts it's worth cfsers looking into.

 

[Oliver3]

Excellent posts. There are many benefits to adding muscle as you point out. Same with telomere lengthening.
Indeed grip strength itself(bone density and ligament strength) are a basic indicator of longevity.
Once they identify more genes for ehlers danlos and they can be edited I think we will have some progress.
The catabolism you talk about is seen with the fingerprints isn't it. Many of us don't have any.something is eating the collagen.
Some of these gene editing products can be inhaled funnily enough.
It's so obviously the way to go medically. But it'll probably be ages before anyone really bites the bullet

 

[Wishful]

We definitely have lost muscle mass tho

Which "we" are you referring to? I seem to be as strong as before ME, similar stamina too. I haven't noticed any physical reduction due to ME.

 

[heapsreal]

Once they identify more genes for ehlers danlos and they can be edited I think we will have some progress.

If you have more info on EDS that would be interesting, as my daughter has EDS and pots but not cfsme.

I have heard the herb astragalus can help with telemeres supposedly. I take it regularly for kidney health as my egfr/kidney function did drop below normal after several bouts of dehydration from 3-4 day long episodes of headaches and vomiting. My egfr was running in the low 50s for awhile, normal is above 60 and prior to these prolonged headache/vomiting bouts it's was 90. Since adding the astragalus, my egfr was 70 when last tested. I don't think it has anything to do with telemeres but more directly on helping kidney function but I take it regularly so it may be helping without me knowing. It's also supposedly good for the immune system. I've probably been taking it now for 2 years and normally have low neutrophils and
my blood work shows they have been within normal range for awhile now. So may be getting another benefit there.

Could it be helping through acting on telemeres??? Something I might look into now.

Cheers

 

[heapsreal]

Many of us don't have any.something is eating the collagen.

There's 2 steroids nandrolone and oxandrolone that are well known for increasing Collagen synthesis and used alot for speeding up the healing process of injuries. So there benefits there. I recall seeing a study on nandrolone improving EDS. I will search for it later, hopefully find it and post it.

 

[Violeta]

Our catabolic conditions are outweighing our anabolic processes.

This is understandable especially when many with cfs have low anabolic hormones like dhea, testosterone and growth hormone and all are negatively effected in healthy people who have poor sleep, so image cfsme with chronically poor sleep.

This made me think of BDNF.

These preclinical and clinical findings show that long-term exposure to stress or inflammation leads to a decrease in BDNF levels, reducing the capacity of the neurons to cope with further challenges (i.e., neuronal plasticity), and ultimately leading to a decreased function and neuronal death.

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) is one of the neurotrophic factors that support differentiation, maturation, and survival of neurons in the nervous system and shows a neuroprotective effect under adverse conditions, such as glutamatergic stimulation, cerebral ischemia, hypoglycemia, and neurotoxicity. BDNF stimulates and controls growth of new neurons from neural stem cells (neurogenesis).

 

[Violeta]

This made me think of BDNF.

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) is one of the neurotrophic factors that support differentiation, maturation, and survival of neurons in the nervous system and shows a neuroprotective effect under adverse conditions, such as glutamatergic stimulation, cerebral ischemia, hypoglycemia, and neurotoxicity. BDNF stimulates and controls growth of new neurons from neural stem cells (neurogenesis).

Bingo

Both telomerase and BDNF are implicated in the regulation of immune cell development and survival, and telomerase appears integral to many of the central nervous system functions that depend on BDNF, including cell proliferation, neuronal differentiation, neuronal survival, and neuritogenesis (Cheng et al., 2007)

Panax ginseng looks like it would help.

Anxiolytic effect of Korean Red Ginseng through upregulation of serotonin and GABA transmission and BDNF expression in immobilized mice.

I will start taking astragalus regularly, too.

Astragalus injection treatment could reduce neuroinflammation, reverse BBB dysfunction, prevent neurodegeneration, and upregulate BDNF-CREB...

Thank you for this thread, somebody.

 

[Violeta]

I first got ill when aged 7, my daughter at 12, mine isn't an age related issue.

From the research I view which explains my symptoms, my illness appears to be driven initially by an infection, then immune dysfunction. Chronic inflammation persists, low blood oxygen/micro clots which prevent the tissues being able to support cell recovery.

I've started a slow intervention program to deal with all the issues. I think I need to fix all aspects in an integrated manner.

What does your intervention program consist of?

 

[Violeta]

If you have more info on EDS that would be interesting, as my daughter has EDS and pots but not cfsme.

I have heard the herb astragalus can help with telemeres supposedly. I take it regularly for kidney health as my egfr/kidney function did drop below normal after several bouts of dehydration from 3-4 day long episodes of headaches and vomiting. My egfr was running in the low 50s for awhile, normal is above 60 and prior to these prolonged headache/vomiting bouts it's was 90. Since adding the astragalus, my egfr was 70 when last tested. I don't think it has anything to do with telemeres but more directly on helping kidney function but I take it regularly so it may be helping without me knowing. It's also supposedly good for the immune system. I've probably been taking it now for 2 years and normally have low neutrophils and
my blood work shows they have been within normal range for awhile now. So may be getting another benefit there.

Could it be helping through acting on telemeres??? Something I might look into now.

Cheers

I found this link by searching for BDNF + EDS. The short description of the study that shows up on Google had BDNF in it, but I haven't found it in the study yet.

Oh, here it is:
Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) has been identified as an up-regulator of TNX expression (Takeda et al., 2005) and glucocorticoids have been identified as a down-regulators of TNX expression (Sakai et al., 1996).

Tenascin-X as a causal gene for classical-like Ehlers-Danlos syndrome​

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2023.1107787/full

 

[GreenEdge]

I'd try anything than improves metabolic function etc.

Great, you should try the carnivore diet. It really does promote fat loss and muscle gain. I'm now much slimmer but heavier and I benefit from exercise. Exercise for me is Tai Chi or a short walk or 20-30 minutes swimming (mostly wading with a little bit of swimming mixed in for variety). Swimming is good because it's like reducing gravity.

After 29 years of CFS my body is very weak, but at least I know I'm now on the right track. After almost 2 years of doing a carnivore/lion diet and more recently increasing fat + fasting, I have less brain fog, my depression and anxiety is almost gone and I'm off all my medications. My only issue now is sleep... I wish I'd never taken those drugs, I've lost the ability to easily fall asleep and stay asleep.

When I get over this illness, I'm going to become a metabolic health coach. Maybe even a holistic doctor (if my brain improves enough to be able to endure 4-8 years of schooling) because from years of researching human nutrition, I believe I know how to improve anyone's health...

So, you want to rewind your biological age.

The TRIIM study reversed epigenetic age in 8 of 10 healthy men (50-60 y.o.) by ~6.5 years within 12 months and reduced thymus gland fat mass by 10-50%. The primary function of the thymus gland is to train special white blood cells called T-lymphocytes or T-cells.

For a detailed explanation of the TRIIM study, see my next post.

 

[Treeman]

What does your intervention program consist of?

SCIG 7g/wkly (immunoglobulins)
Cimetidine 400g twice daily
Aspirin 1 daily
Apixaban 5g daily
Breathing exercises

Other items to potentially add very soon include,
HBOT
Clopidogrel

HELP Apheresis (unlikely this will be added in the near future, if at all)

I'm just recovering from a series of December infections and a big one last June which knocked me back.

 

[GreenEdge]

This study reversed epigenetic and biological age by 6.5 years in 12 months:

These Molecules Reversed Aging by 6.5 YEARS! [TRIIM Study Explained - Study 216]
1. 0.015 mg/kg of Human Growth Hormone
2. 50mg of DHEA
3. 500mg of metformin
4. 3000IU Vitamin D
5. 50mg zinc

 

[heapsreal]

My only issue now is sleep... I wish I'd never taken those drugs, I've lost the ability to easily fall asleep and stay asleep.

Yep, I understand your situation but I also know a number of cfsers that never used sleep meds and continued to sleep terribly, it's a rock and a hard place.
I've heard from someone who corrected their sleep issues who had cfsme, that if I could afford or be able to obtain I'd really consider it. This guy also had fibro pain as well and had read how Dr Cheney from the famous Lake Tahoe outbreak, had prescribed growth hormone successfully in some patients. So he was able to get GH prescribed and took a replacement dose for a year but then stopped due the cost. He said it wasn't a cure for cfs/fibro but he did improve some from its ability to improve his sleep. When he stopped the treatment he continued to sleep well. So that's always been a promising treatment I've had in the back of my mind I'd like to try. I'm not sure how it works but the majority of natural gh release we get is when we sleep, so maybe it triggered or fixed something in the pituitary or hypothalamus???

My situation is changing soon as far as work and mortgage etc and moving to another town and will be debt free. I plan to have a few months off and I've had some success with high dose melatonin 80-100mg range, so I'm thinking of doing that again with some gh peptides and initially add a very low dose of a benzo if needed but basically try and wean off the sleep meds. Possibly wean melatonin down to a normal dose eventually also??See how it goes. Even if it works for awhile, it may help reduce benzo tolerance etc and not being tied to a specific schedule, it's hopefully easier for me to experiment with sorting my sleep issues out.

I seem to be on top of viral reactivation stuff and been functioning OK for awhile now, so just sort my sleep hopefully???

 

[Wayne]

If we could identify which genes are defective and are keeping us sick then correcting those genes could help people slowly recover. Maybe someday gene therapy will be the answer.

Hi @Katt -- I do think genes play an important role. I also think in terms of genetic expression, or epigenetics. It's influenced by a wide variety of factors, most of which we have more control of than changing our genes.