Researchers say they have found a link in the pathology between long COVID and myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS).

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,049
I am unsure what you are saying here. It seems confused and makes no sense, could you retype please. Do you mean you have a bad variant.

Yes, you are right. There is a mix-up and I need to revisit my notes.
One of the references I collected:
Phospholipase A2 Receptor (PLA2R1) Sequence Variants in Idiopathic Membranous Nephropathy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609136/
More at: https://scholar.google.de/scholar?q...+PLA2R1)"&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
One other clue I have since 2011. I have an epigenetic gene (methylation) "phospholipase a2 (Gene PLA2R1)"
Are you suggesting that you have a polymorphism of this gene and that it could affect the clearance of phospholipase A2 and thus affecting its normal enzymatic cleavage of fatty acids that cause arachiodonic release.

Anandamide - Wikipedia
Anandamide (ANA), also known as N-arachidonoylethanolamine (AEA), is a fatty acid neurotransmitter.

Anandamide is derived from the non-oxidative metabolism of arachidonic acid, an essential omega-6 fatty acid. It is synthesized from N-arachidonoyl phosphatidylethanolamine by multiple pathways.[5] It is degraded primarily by the fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH) enzyme, which converts anandamide into ethanolamine and arachidonic acid. As such, inhibitors of FAAH lead to elevated anandamide levels and are being pursued for therapeutic use.[

This would seemingly cause an issue with cannabinoid regulation involved in calcium ion channel regulation. This would in turn affect the local immune system to the phospholipase A2 receptors on neurons likely having some affect over the stress response as a result. The affect of a polymorphism doing this could make someone susceptible to HPA activation over normal levels causing a hightened response to input to the HPA axis via stimuli from the outside world and physical processes that activate the HPA to illicit action in some way like the cortisol wake response.
Once an immune issue comes and dysregulates further an already dysregulated system it causes a downward spiral of brake down of systems and processes. Production of substances becomes inhibited or fails, receptors become desensitised or sensitised and feedback loops of homeostasis become broken and stuck in wrong action.

PLA2R1 phospholipase A2 receptor 1 [Homo sapiens (human)] - Gene - NCBI (nih.gov)
This gene represents a phospholipase A2 receptor. The encoded protein likely exists as both a transmembrane form and a soluble form. The transmembrane receptor may play a role in clearance of phospholipase A2, thereby inhibiting its action. Polymorphisms at this locus have been associated with susceptibility to idiopathic membranous nephropathy. Alternatively spliced transcript variants encoding different isoforms have been identified.

Phospholipase A2 - Wikipedia
The extracellular forms of phospholipases A2 have been isolated from different venoms (snake, bee, and wasp), from virtually every studied mammalian tissue (including pancreas and kidney) as well as from bacteria. They require Ca2+ for activity.

Ca2+ Chemistry, Storage and Transport in Biologic Systems: An Overview - Madame Curie Bioscience Database - NCBI Bookshelf (nih.gov)
Calcium ions play a critical role in most if not all cellular processes. It has even been demonstrated that Ca2+ currents in root tips, in combination with gravity, are responsible for their downward growth.1 Most of these effects are mediated by both temporally and spatially tightly controlled changes in cytosolic free Ca2+ brought about by activation of Ca2+ influx pathways in the cell membrane or by activation of intracellular Ca2+ release channels, and countered by transporters acting as Ca2+ pumps.

Cannabinoid receptors contribute to astroglial Ca2+-signalling and control of synaptic plasticity in the neocortex - PMC (nih.gov)
ABSTRACT
Communication between neuronal and glial cells is thought to be very important for many brain functions. Acting via release of gliotransmitters, astrocytes can modulate synaptic strength. The mechanisms underlying ATP release from astrocytes remain uncertain with exocytosis being the most intriguing and debated pathway. We have demonstrated that ATP and d-serine can be released from cortical astrocytes in situ by a SNARE-complex-dependent mechanism. Exocytosis of ATP from astrocytes can activate post-synaptic P2X receptors in the adjacent neurons, causing a downregulation of synaptic and extrasynaptic GABA receptors in cortical pyramidal neurons. We showed that release of gliotransmitters is important for the NMDA receptor-dependent synaptic plasticity in the neocortex. Firstly, induction of long-term potentiation (LTP) by five episodes of theta-burst stimulation (TBS) was impaired in the neocortex of dominant-negative (dn)-SNARE mice. The LTP was rescued in the dn-SNARE mice by application of exogenous non-hydrolysable ATP analogues. Secondly, we observed that weak sub-threshold stimulation (two TBS episodes) became able to induce LTP when astrocytes were additionally activated via CB-1 receptors. This facilitation was dependent on activity of ATP receptors and was abolished in the dn-SNARE mice. Our results strongly support the physiological relevance of glial exocytosis for glia–neuron communications and brain function.

Control of Ca2+ influx by cannabinoid and metabotropic glutamate receptors in rat cerebellar cortex requires K+ channels - PMC (nih.gov)
Abstract
  1. In the rodent cerebellum, both presynaptic CB1 cannabinoid receptors and presynaptic mGluR4 metabotropic glutamate receptors acutely depress excitatory synaptic transmission at parallel fibre-Purkinje cell synapses. Using rat cerebellar slices, we have analysed the effects of selective CB1 and mGluR4 agonists on the presynaptic Ca2+ influx which controls glutamate release at this synapse.
  2. Changes in presynaptic Ca2+ influx were determined with the Ca2+-sensitive dyes fluo-4FF AM or fluo-3 AM. Five stimulations delivered at 100 Hz or single stimulations of parallel fibres evoked rapid and reproducible transient increases in presynaptic fluo-4FF or fluo-3 fluorescence, respectively, which decayed to prestimulus levels within a few hundred milliseconds. Bath application of the selective CB1 agonist WIN55,212-2 (1 μm) markedly reduced the peak amplitude of these fluorescence transients. This effect was fully reversed by the selective CB1 antagonist SR141716-A (1 μm).
  3. Bath application of the selective mGluR4 agonist l-AP4 (100 μm) also caused a transient decrease in the peak amplitude of the fluorescence transients evoked by parallel fibre stimulation.
  4. Bath application of the potassium channel blocker 4-AP (1 mm) totally prevented both the WIN55,212-2- and the l-AP4-induced inhibition of peak fluorescence transients evoked by parallel fibre stimulation.
  5. The present study demonstrates that activation of CB1 and mGluR4 receptors inhibits presynaptic Ca2+ influx evoked by parallel fibre stimulation via the activation of presynaptic K+ channels, suggesting that the molecular mechanisms underlying this inhibition involve an indirect inhibition of presynaptic voltage-gated Ca2+ channels rather than their direct inhibition.
Hypokalemia (low potassium) would also cause issues in this system of processes. Considering it is difficult to raise Potassium with low Magnesium it makes sense that we all should keep our Magnesium and potassium at good levels to avoid this.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,049
Are you suggesting that you have a polymorphism of this gene and that it could affect the clearance of phospholipase A2 and thus affecting its normal enzymatic cleavage of fatty acids that cause arachiodonic release.
Checking several lectures this is what I understand is the case.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Checking several lectures this is what I understand is the case.
What are you saying here it is just a video on processes. Write what you mean please.

I am saying a polymorphism of the gene you state may affect cannabinoid regulation and thus calcium ion regulation which relates to your threads presentation.

Cannabinoid regulation relates to HPA axis and immune function.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
2,049
My theory is related to post #3 BBC Inside Science segment on #MECFS, LongCovid and Microclots
and the potential Prostaglandin E2 open or remove Microclots.

What is prostaglandin and its function?
Functions of prostaglandins: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4589748/
Prostaglandins play a role in the following reproductive functions: 1) conception; 2) luteolysis; 3) menstruation; and 4) parturition. It has also been proposed that Prostaglandin A may be the natriuretic hormone, the circulating hormone which controls sodium reabsorption by the kidney.

Prostaglandin Synthesis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/prostaglandin-synthesis
Prostaglandin synthesis is initiated by the interaction of various hormones (e.g. bradykinin, angiotensin II, thrombin) with their cognate cell surface receptors (Figs. 2 and 3). Hormonal stimulation results in the activation of one or more cellular lipases.

What Happens When prostaglandins are blocked? https://www.healthline.com/health/prostaglandins
Too many or too few prostaglandins in the body can cause health complications. Known problems with too many prostaglandins include arthritis and menstrual cramping. Conditions that can result from too few prostaglandins include glaucoma and stomach ulcers.

There is so much more to research on how hormones could be involved in ME/CFS.
The scattered publication is not easy to combine into just one theory, although I´m getting daily more information as my health condition (busted sigmoid fistula) allows.
I wish a lab would be interested in testing. Prostaglandin E2 - Available at Merck https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/DE/de/...oK4lBd45ikPilqgSounpADEZaOhkshAAaAltFEALw_wcB
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
My theory is related to post #3 BBC Inside Science segment on #MECFS, LongCovid and Microclots
and the potential Prostaglandin E2 open or remove Microclots.

What is prostaglandin and its function?
Functions of prostaglandins: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4589748/
Prostaglandins play a role in the following reproductive functions: 1) conception; 2) luteolysis; 3) menstruation; and 4) parturition. It has also been proposed that Prostaglandin A may be the natriuretic hormone, the circulating hormone which controls sodium reabsorption by the kidney.

Prostaglandin Synthesis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/prostaglandin-synthesis
Prostaglandin synthesis is initiated by the interaction of various hormones (e.g. bradykinin, angiotensin II, thrombin) with their cognate cell surface receptors (Figs. 2 and 3). Hormonal stimulation results in the activation of one or more cellular lipases.

What Happens When prostaglandins are blocked? https://www.healthline.com/health/prostaglandins
Too many or too few prostaglandins in the body can cause health complications. Known problems with too many prostaglandins include arthritis and menstrual cramping. Conditions that can result from too few prostaglandins include glaucoma and stomach ulcers.

There is so much more to research on how hormones could be involved in ME/CFS.
The scattered publication is not easy to combine into just one theory, although I´m getting daily more information as my health condition (busted sigmoid fistula) allows.
I wish a lab would be interested in testing. Prostaglandin E2 - Available at Merck https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/DE/de/...oK4lBd45ikPilqgSounpADEZaOhkshAAaAltFEALw_wcB
Sorry but you are just copy and pasting descriptions of processes and not explaining what you mean by stating these facts. You are not stating a theory or greater knowledge on the subject.

?
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
2,049
You are not stating a theory or greater knowledge on the subject.
You are right. I´m posting existing links hoping someone else would be interested and contribute to finding the missing link. In my opinion, hormones are the most neglected in medical testing and reveal limited exposure in research. There are missing parts in the puzzle about their important functional role in humans (and other mammalians).
I follow a thought process while searching for cause and effect by using existing connective evidence (if it exists) before I turn loose my theory.
 
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My cortisol levels are rock bottom low, but as soon as I try to raise them using a functional medicine approach (under MDs care), I get tense muscles, stressed, and can't sleep. I know other people here have low cortisol. I am wondering if anyone else had problems when you try to raise the cortisol levels. Any advice or can you point me to a particular forum? Are the above studies suggesting the supplemental cannaboids could help regulate the HPA axis and might help with this?

(I am so interested in this because I noticed that raising my cortisol levels, just before stress/tenseness hit, helped me feel MUCH stronger. I have considered the stellate ganglion block, hypnotherapy, and more. I meditate regularly and am trying to remain calm. I am sure I have years of stress to undo. I've taken licorice, DHEA, and pregnenolone to try a systems based approach to raising cortisol levels.)
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
My cortisol levels are rock bottom low, but as soon as I try to raise them using a functional medicine approach (under MDs care), I get tense muscles, stressed, and can't sleep. I know other people here have low cortisol. I am wondering if anyone else had problems when you try to raise the cortisol levels. Any advice or can you point me to a particular forum? Are the above studies suggesting the supplemental cannaboids could help regulate the HPA axis and might help with this?

(I am so interested in this because I noticed that raising my cortisol levels, just before stress/tenseness hit, helped me feel MUCH stronger. I have considered the stellate ganglion block, hypnotherapy, and more. I meditate regularly and am trying to remain calm. I am sure I have years of stress to undo. I've taken licorice, DHEA, and pregnenolone to try a systems based approach to raising cortisol levels.)
I would suggest from my experience, self learnt knowledge and success at beating ME/CFS that raising cortisol is the wrong approach as over production of cortisol from the overactive HPA is what has caused the low cortisol. Adrenal fatigue or atrophy can follow and this causes the low cortisol production. Cortisol works on a feedback loop and this is now messed up.

The cannabinoid system regulates many things such as calcium ion channels, nerve impulses, mood, pain ect and the HPA axis.

HPA axis dysregulation is a fundamental issue in ME/CFS.

Here is some relevant information on the HPA axis regulation with Cannabidiol (CBD)-
Enhancing Endocannabinoid Control of Stress with Cannabidiol - PMC (nih.gov)
Abstract
The stress response is a well-defined physiological function activated frequently by life events. However, sometimes the stress response can be inappropriate, excessive, or prolonged; in which case, it can hinder rather than help in coping with the stressor, impair normal functioning, and increase the risk of somatic and mental health disorders. There is a need for a more effective and safe pharmacological treatment that can dampen maladaptive stress responses. The endocannabinoid system is one of the main regulators of the stress response. A basal endocannabinoid tone inhibits the stress response, modulation of this tone permits/curtails an active stress response, and chronic deficiency in the endocannabinoid tone is associated with the pathological complications of chronic stress. Cannabidiol is a safe exogenous cannabinoid enhancer of the endocannabinoid system that could be a useful treatment for stress. There have been seven double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials of CBD for stress on a combined total of 232 participants and one partially controlled study on 120 participants. All showed that CBD was effective in significantly reducing the stress response and was non-inferior to pharmaceutical comparators, when included. The clinical trial results are supported by the established mechanisms of action of CBD (including increased N-arachidonylethanolamine levels) and extensive real-world and preclinical evidence of the effectiveness of CBD for treating stress.

This is how I fixed my HPA axis dysfunction and is a long process being longer the worse you are.

With an 8 hours sleep window and taking every 4 hours, before sleep and immediately apon waking allowing 20-30mins before getting up will start to fix things to do with the HPA axis.

This is 5 doses a day.

If you intend on doing more as you improve you should take some CBD before and after the activity to adjust for the added HPA stimulation that it brings with it.

CBD does this by raising Anandamide, here is how it does that-
Frontiers | Cannabidiol as a Promising Strategy to Treat and Prevent Movement Disorders? (frontiersin.org)
1661318389766.png

If you have anymore questions please ask on this thread please-
Members Only - A place to ask Questions about Caryophyllene + related stuff! | Page 12 | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

I hope I have been helpful.
 
Messages
23
I would suggest from my experience, self learnt knowledge and success at beating ME/CFS that raising cortisol is the wrong approach as over production of cortisol from the overactive HPA is what has caused the low cortisol. Adrenal fatigue or atrophy can follow and this causes the low cortisol production. Cortisol works on a feedback loop and this is now messed up.

The cannabinoid system regulates many things such as calcium ion channels, nerve impulses, mood, pain ect and the HPA axis.

HPA axis dysregulation is a fundamental issue in ME/CFS.

Here is some relevant information on the HPA axis regulation with Cannabidiol (CBD)-


This is how I fixed my HPA axis dysfunction and is a long process being longer the worse you are.

With an 8 hours sleep window and taking every 4 hours, before sleep and immediately apon waking allowing 20-30mins before getting up will start to fix things to do with the HPA axis.

This is 5 doses a day.

If you intend on doing more as you improve you should take some CBD before and after the activity to adjust for the added HPA stimulation that it brings with it.

CBD does this by raising Anandamide, here is how it does that-


If you have anymore questions please ask on this thread please-
Members Only - A place to ask Questions about Caryophyllene + related stuff! | Page 12 | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

I hope I have been helpful.

Hi!

This is very interesting. Could Red Clover extract (Biochanin A) substitute for CBD. In Norway we
get permission to import CBD oil, but it take a while.

What article should I show my GP you think and what CBD product do you reccomend.

Thanks for the knowledge.

Also, NADH together with CBD?
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
This is very interesting. Could Red Clover extract (Biochanin A) substitute for CBD. In Norway we
get permission to import CBD oil, but it take a while.
This red clover does not contain CBD so no, only hemp/cannabis contains CBD.
What article should I show my GP you think and what CBD product do you reccomend.
If your GP is ok with CBD and understands the involvement of the HPA axis chronic activation in ME/CFS then you could show them Enhancing Endocannabinoid Control of Stress with Cannabidiol - PMC (nih.gov) If you look above I have already posted this with the extract, I do not want to post it twice. He may be receptive due to the-
There have been seven double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials of CBD for stress on a combined total of 232 participants and one partially controlled study on 120 participants. However doctors are not usually friendly to anything like this, I hope yours is different.
Use a CBD product that has good testing. I personally use something called Dragonfly CBD 1000mg per 10ml. You want to get what you pay for so choose wisely.
Also, NADH together with CBD?
I have no experience on this sorry.
 
Messages
23
Thank you very much <3

I was asking about Red Clover and Biochanin A based on what you posted.

Am i right that is a FAAH breaks down fatty acids (ananandamide = Biochanin A) and supplementing it would help. That is what i kind of understand CBD does.

From your article:

[....] In the brain, CB1/2 signaling has a basal tone that depends on AEA production in response to neuronal activity. This tone can be rapidly reduced, by increased hydrolyzation of AEA to arachidonic acid (AA) and ethanolamine (EA) by FAAH that is in the post-synaptic endoplasmic reticulum. The main action of CBD is to competitively inhibit binding of AEA to its aqueous transporter, fatty acid binding protein (FABP), thereby inhibiting the degradation of AEA by FAAH and increasing CB1/2 receptor signaling tone.

Thoughts?

From another article on Biochanin a: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2931556/

Background and purpose:
Inhibitors of fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH), the enzyme responsible for the metabolism of the endogenous cannabinoid (CB) receptor ligand anandamide (AEA), are effective in a number of animal models of pain. Here, we investigated a series of isoflavones with respect to their abilities to inhibit FAAH.
Experimental approach:
In vitro assays of FAAH activity and affinity for CB receptors were used to characterize key compounds. In vivo assays used were biochemical responses to formalin in anaesthetized mice and the ‘tetrad’ test for central CB receptor activation.
Key results:
Of the compounds tested, biochanin A was adjudged to be the most promising. Biochanin A inhibited the hydrolysis of 0.5 µM AEA by mouse, rat and human FAAH with IC50 values of 1.8, 1.4 and 2.4 µM respectively. The compound did not interact to any major extent with CB1 or CB2 receptors, nor with FAAH-2. In anaesthetized mice, URB597 (30 µg i.pl.) and biochanin A (100 µg i.pl.) both inhibited the spinal phosphorylation of extracellular signal-regulated kinase produced by the intraplantar injection of formalin. The effects of both compounds were significantly reduced by the CB1 receptor antagonist/inverse agonist AM251 (30 µg i.pl.). Biochanin A (15 mg·kg−1 i.v.) did not increase brain AEA concentrations, but produced a modest potentiation of the effects of 10 mg·kg−1 i.v. AEA in the tetrad test.
Conclusions and implications:
It is concluded that biochanin A, in addition to its other biochemical properties, inhibits FAAH both in vitro and peripherally in vivo.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,154
For over 50 years I followed every lead about weakness related to hormones. It was during pregnancy with twins, that I lost one of the twins due to low cortisol. Naturally back in the days, there was not much science available but I had then and still have a suspicion that ME is related to hormones because it resamples a (prolonged) Addison's crisis.
There is no question that VZV, EBV and Herpes could be one of the causes but there is one more virus that has nobody tested yet or included in ME/CFS research. It is POLIO.
One other clue I have since 2011. I have a epigenetic gene (methylation) "phospholipase a2 (Gene PLA2R1)" iMN https://n.neurology.org/content/33/4/447
Last year I have written to many Labs and Universities and also to Prof. Akiko Iwasaki asking to include the polio virus in their research, but no answer.
One other problem seems to be, that most ME patients never had a cortisol/ACTH or/and catecholamines test.
There is an eery silence about Post Polio (symptoms) in connection with the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis among scientists and ME.

I never had polio but I am wondering if my symptoms related to vasopressin (excessive thirst and urination) could have been brought on by a polio vaccine. SW, did you have polio?

These symptoms started at a very young age, but I am not positive that they started after a vaccine. (I have seen it said that vaccines in the 1950's may have had questionable ingredients.) I was in a group for people with diabetes insipidus for a while, and when I saw people who were discussing their children having it, I would ask if they had recently been vaccinated and frequently the answer was yes. This is just something I wonder about.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Thoughts?
Hi thank you for telling me about this it is interesting and I was not aware of this.

Biochanin A, It looks here to have the affect of competing with FAAH lowering its affect on Anandamide however it -
The compound did not interact to any major extent with CB1 or CB2 receptors
CBD also interacts at the CB1 and CB2 receptors as an inverse agonist and allosteric modulator. It is complicated but it helps improve the effect of the raised Anandamide further and improves endocannabinoid tone.
If you look a bit higher up on this thread you will see an image of CBD`s mechanisms of action which shows this.
Its got big green bars in the image so should be easy to find.

This means it will be different in its overall affect and I do not have experience with it.

If you decide to try it please look into safety first and if you do try please do let me know how you get on.

I suggest CBD because I know it works and have known and researched this molecule for 20 years so I feel comfortable recommending it to others.

Please be careful if you do try it as it may have other things in the red clover that causes bad interactions or toxic issues, this I do not know.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,489
I"m having more trouble sleeping in 'the morning"...since I started this Mood Probiotic which may be altering cortisol..... so now I feel worn out from not sleeping enough...

I did some 24 hour cortisol thing a few years ago: did I get any results dunno...typical.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,489
I suggest CBD because I know it works and have known and researched this molecule for 20 years so I feel comfortable recommending it to others.

I got REALLY nauseated yesterday late afternoon, on two inhales of CBD. This was really odd. I felt super weird for about an hour.

Nauseated freaks me out. Because of the sudden gastroperesis crap that can happen around here. And I did panic a bit, then calmed back down.
 
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