Reoccurring chickenpox and shingles.

[Violeta]

Right before I came down with shingles in 2017 I had quit gluten and dairy and was eating a ketogenic diet which consisted of bacon and eggs. To this day, when I eat eggs or chicken, I get a minor outbreak where I had shinges that seems more like chickenpox than shingles. So I sometimes try to bring eggs and chicken back into my very restricted diet, but as of today I am giving up.

This past week I had been eating pork, which seemed to be the only meat left (beef causes other issues), but now the pork seems to be making the postherpetic neuralgia worse. So I cut that out, today is the first day without it, and I will see how it goes.

I don't know what the issue with the meat could be, but maybe the uric acid. I don't know.

So I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed that animal protein makes your condition worse.

 

[heapsreal]

Right before I came down with shingles in 2017 I had quit gluten and dairy and was eating a ketogenic diet which consisted of bacon and eggs. To this day, when I eat eggs or chicken, I get a minor outbreak where I had shinges that seems more like chickenpox than shingles. So I sometimes try to bring eggs and chicken back into my very restricted diet, but as of today I am giving up.

This past week I had been eating pork, which seemed to be the only meat left (beef causes other issues), but now the pork seems to be making the postherpetic neuralgia worse. So I cut that out, today is the first day without it, and I will see how it goes.

I don't know what the issue with the meat could be, but maybe the uric acid. I don't know.

So I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed that animal protein makes your condition worse.

Autoimmune reaction to something in the meat. Maybe try organic cuts of meat as maybe antibiotics or hormones might be used in the current meat you have eaten that you cant tolerate.

 

[Violeta]

Autoimmune reaction to something in the meat. Maybe try organic cuts of meat as maybe antibiotics or hormones might be used in the current meat you have eaten that you cant tolerate.

I do buy organic meat raised without antibiotics. Same with eggs. It's very strange.

 

[heapsreal]

I do buy organic meat raised without antibiotics. Same with eggs. It's very strange.

Thats a hard one then. With chronic illnesses we tend to be in a catabolic state so protein requirements can be higher. Can you tolerate whey protein powder? Maybe essential amino acid powder or capsules might be more tolerable, also depending on artificial sweetners added etc

 

[vision blue]

@violelata I have problems with meats too. they make all my neural symtpoms worse as well as increase blood pressure. In my case, I think its the amines generated by aged proteins. All beef and pork are aged unless you are a hunter eating right away. The only meat that doesn't give me the issue is turkey.

but in your case, that's pretty interesting. i wonder if you set up some associative learning with the shingles. Have you tested for alpha-gal antibodies? Not for associatiove learning, but for antibodies that now will react when eating meat.

In terms of my recurrent virus, which is likely HSV1 and not shingles, i have food triggers, but all explicable by the standard thinking on it- arginine foods trigger my herpes recurrence - seeds, nuts, i think chicken liver sometime, anything probably high in arginine. I also wonder if it was when i had to go off dairy (lysine) is when i started having all the trouble. otoh, taking lysine does nothing for me.

 

[Violeta]

Thats a hard one then. With chronic illnesses we tend to be in a catabolic state so protein requirements can be higher. Can you tolerate whey protein powder? Maybe essential amino acid powder or capsules might be more tolerable, also depending on artificial sweetners added etc

A catabolic state certainly applies to my condition. I don't do well with processed whey protein powder, but I have been tolerating goat milk kefir and KerryGold cheese. So I am doing okay on those two protein sources, and racking my brain for what else to add to my diet.

 

[Violeta]

@violelata I have problems with meats too. they make all my neural symtpoms worse as well as increase blood pressure. In my case, I think its the amines generated by aged proteins. All beef and pork are aged unless you are a hunter eating right away. The only meat that doesn't give me the issue is turkey.

but in your case, that's pretty interesting. i wonder if you set up some associative learning with the shingles. Have you tested for alpha-gal antibodies? Not for associatiove learning, but for antibodies that now will react when eating meat.

In terms of my recurrent virus, which is likely HSV1 and not shingles, i have food triggers, but all explicable by the standard thinking on it- arginine foods trigger my herpes recurrence - seeds, nuts, i think chicken liver sometime, anything probably high in arginine. I also wonder if it was when i had to go off dairy (lysine) is when i started having all the trouble. otoh, taking lysine does nothing for me.

I haven't done any testing for antibodies. I did do two food allergy tests over the years, but symptoms from the allergens seem to fade. I have had so many symptoms related to foods over the years that I just keep adjusting my diet. Since starting adequate but not high amounts of thiamine along with a B complex, and then especially with fairly high amounts of B5, food sensitivities are easing up.

With respect to stopping dairy (which I did when I got shingles), someone here said that calcium supplements are really helpful.

I do deal with HSV1, too, and yes, also have to avoid seeds and nuts. Glutamates, such as bone broth, are really bad.

For several years before getting shingles I had an HSV1 outbreak in December/January time of year. I hadn't been taking vitamin D, but do take that now, and haven't had an outbreak since taking it. Those years were when I would try to do a ketogenic diet. When I was vegan for many years I had no outbreaks, but certainly had even worse issues, more pain and weak heart.

Sorry, I could go on and on. Thanks for listening. One thing that I really appreciate about this forum is that now I can say out loud that I am so tired and not feel bad about myself.

 

[Violeta]

I am continuing to look into the peroxynitrite angle of postherpetic neuralgia and just found this.

This is way above my pay grade, I am just going to keep reading Martin Pall info.

I don't know if the Tyr1472 involvement means that taking tyrosine will help or not. I don't understand genetics at all.

"Based on data they had obtained by using this mouse model, Sasaki et al. [4] recently suggested that herpetic and postherpetic allodynia are mediated by nitric oxide (NO) in the dorsal horn and that inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) and neuronal NOS (nNOS) are responsible for herpetic and postherpetic allodynia, respectively. Many studies including ours have demonstrated that activation of the NMDA subtype of glutamate receptors and subsequent NO production is a fundamental event in neurotransmission and synaptic plasticity in pain transmission in the spinal cord."

And I see I am going to have to try to understand calmodulin.

"
These results demonstrate that the attenuation of neuropathic pain is caused by the impaired NMDA receptor-mediated CaMKII signaling in Y1472F-KI mice, and suggest that autophosphorylation of CaMKII at Thr286 plays a central part not only in LTP, but also in persistent neuropathic pain."

From here:
Involvement of Tyr1472 phosphorylation of NMDA receptor NR2B subunit in postherpetic neuralgia in model mice

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3495680/

 

[Violeta]

With respect to peroxynitrite and shingles, Martin Pall says that shingles is one of the diseases in which peroxynitrite is involved.

https://news.wsu.edu/news/2007/04/27/complex-paradigm-may-explain-elusive-illnesses/

SOD is a helpful antioxidant of peroxynitrite.

Spirulina is a potent scavanger of peroxynitrite.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11444835/

"These results suggest that phycocyanin, biliprotein from spirulina, has the ability to inhibit the ONOO(-)-mediated deleterious biological effects and hence has the potential to be used as a therapeutic agent."

 

[Violeta]

Looking right now at adenosine and found this about adenosine monophosphate.
If anyone is interested I will try to explain why I am probably deficient in adenosine monophosphate.


What is adenosine monophosphate used for?


Adenosine monophosphate has been found to speed healing, reduce the duration of pain of shingles, and prevent the development of postherpetic neuralgia. More. Adenosine monophosphate (AMP), a compound that occurs naturally in the body, has been found to be effective against shingles outbreaks.

 

[heapsreal]

I got blood work yesterday. Cd 3/4/8 t cells all elevated. Report said a few possible causes like smoking etc but nothing related to me other than possible persistent viral infection. Its my belief that its probably varicella as this is where i had persistent headaches originating from over the side of my head where i had shingles. And general drop in function since i had issues obtaining famvir.

Its also very possible it could be ebv, cmv or a combo of these things. I will mention it again, but cant get viral titre levels in Australia. I definitely feel im in the cfsme chronic viral sub group, blood work just evidence that confirms my thoughts.

 

[Violeta]

This study has some interesting points and some interesting remedies for postherpetic neuralgia.

I found it while looking up calcitonin gene related peptide, substance P and nitric oxide.

" Such a paradigm shift would mean that drugs useful in the treatment of glial cell activation such as naloxone, naltrexone, minocycline, pentoxifyllline, propentofylline, AV411 (ibudilast) and interleukin 10 could be useful in PHN. These drugs could be used systemically or even topically. High dose topical vitamin D would appear to offer particular promise because vitamin D has the ability to both reduce glial inflammation and reduce nitric oxide production."


Post herpetic neuralgia, schwann cell activation and vitaminD JimBartley, 2009

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030698770900471X

 

[Violeta]

It's so hard to get out of this cycle. It's so discouraging.

 

[Violeta]

This study has some interesting points and some interesting remedies for postherpetic neuralgia.

I found it while looking up calcitonin gene related peptide, substance P and nitric oxide.

" Such a paradigm shift would mean that drugs useful in the treatment of glial cell activation such as naloxone, naltrexone, minocycline, pentoxifyllline, propentofylline, AV411 (ibudilast) and interleukin 10 could be useful in PHN. These drugs could be used systemically or even topically. High dose topical vitamin D would appear to offer particular promise because vitamin D has the ability to both reduce glial inflammation and reduce nitric oxide production."


Post herpetic neuralgia, schwann cell activation and vitaminD JimBartley, 2009

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030698770900471X

Actually, the root is probably the virus, and until that is dealt with, the pain will continue.

I am going to try olive leaf extract. It's supposed to deal with the virus through production of nitric oxide, but also help clear out nitric oxide. (I hope I have that right, I will get the link.)


Oleuropein in Olive and its Pharmacological Effects
Syed Haris Omar, 2010
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3002804/

 

[vision blue]

Actually, the root is probably the virus, and until that is dealt with, the pain will continue.

I am going to try olive leaf extract. It's supposed to deal with the virus through production of nitric oxide, but also help clear out nitric oxide. (I hope /PMC3002804/

I tried it for my presumed recurrent hsv1. Bought dried leaves. Was too acidic for me to drink it so i boil the leaves and breathe in the steam. Cant imagine its doing anything but nakes me feel like im doing something..
Have you tried lauricidin granules? If your gut can tolerate that seemed to be working but i could not.

 

[Violeta]

I tried it for my presumed recurrent hsv1. Bought dried leaves. Was too acidic for me to drink it so i boil the leaves and breathe in the steam. Cant imagine its doing anything but nakes me feel like im doing something..
Have you tried lauricidin granules? If your gut can tolerate that seemed to be working but i could not.

I have tried lauricidn granules. I will try to get more consistent with that.

Olive leaf can give me some problems, I think because it lowers blood pressure through nitic oxide, but I'm trying it again, just lower dose. It seems to make the postherpetic neuralgia worse, I don't know why.

Last night while I was awake with insomnia I saw some links that say that adenosine monophosphate is good for shingles pain. I'll see if I can find the link.

I did have this saved, adenosine kinase > adenosine monophosphate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3698936/

Here's a paragraph about it.
"Adenosine monophosphate has been found to speed healing, reduce the duration of pain of shingles, and prevent the development of postherpetic neuralgia. More. Adenosine monophosphate (AMP), a compound that occurs naturally in the body, has been found to be effective against shingles outbreaks"

 

[Hoosierfans]

This is a bit of an older thread but I really appreciate the research and suggestions here.

Calcium for shingles, who knew? I’m going to give supplementing a try and see if it has any impact on my pain. (As an aside, I’m on a long term mineralcorticoid for my POTS and I looked it up and apparently it leads to both potassium and calcium wasting ugh)

Also ordered some Ibudilast, as it came up in some other research I’d done on herpesviruses.

 

[hapl808]

Also ordered some Ibudilast, as it came up in some other research I’d done on herpesviruses.

Curious how that goes - one of the things I've been interested in trying.

 

[Hoosierfans]

Curious how that goes - one of the things I've been interested in trying.

I’ll let you know. Here are my notes on it:

—inhibits Toll Like Receptor 4, and this NFk-beta and TNF-a
— suppresses Nitric Oxide (mine is too high) which can improve pain and raise blood pressure (mine is too low)
—inhibits ROS, IL-1b, IL-6 and IL-10
— calming to glial cells
— is a non selective phosphodiesterase inhibitor (“works by decreasing the action of a specific enzyme known as phosphodiesterase. Phosphodiesterase breaks down certain organic molecules and, in the process, relaxes muscles and enhances blood flow.)
—inhibits macrophage migration inhibitory factor (ditto no idea what this means)
— has been used in pain conditions and “post stroke dizziness” (dizziness is a major issue for me). Unclear from my research what the mechanism is behind helping dizziness (cytokines? Glial cells?)
— being studied in Long COVID due to current use in asthma and effect on cytokines
— being studied in MS with mixed results
— being studied in ALS and in alcohol addiction

 

[Treeman]

HI, I have had constant shingles outbreak for several years and take acyclovir as a preventative. However, the outbreaks continued. I'm a patient with NHS immunology and have told them numerous times but with little response from them.

It's also noteworthy that shingles can occur without a rash too. (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321217#_noHeaderPrefixedContent)

After doing some internet research I've discovered that shingles is known to become resistant to acyclovir when used as a preventative.

Antiviral resistance in herpes simplex virus and varicella-zoster virus infections: diagnosis and management (2016) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27306564/

Long-term administration of ACV for the treatment of severe infections in immunocompromised patients can lead to the development of drug resistance.

Emergence of varicella-zoster virus resistance to acyclovir: epidemiology, prevention, and treatment (2021) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33853490/

Successful treatment with famciclovir for varicella zoster virus infection resistant to acyclovir (2021) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1341321X20304487

long-term use of acyclovir can result in the emergence of VZV strain resistant to acyclovir and, oral administration of famciclovir, a prodrug form of penciclovir, resulted in resolution of his herpes zoster,

I also discovered that on the NHS I can get famciclovir, which I've just completed.

National Institute for health and care excellence NICE

Famciclovir
Herpes zoster infection, treatment in immunocompromised patients for famciclovir By mouth
Adult: 500 mg 3 times a day for 10 days, continue for 2 days after crusting of lesions.

Unfortunately, whilst taking the famciclovir the shingles got worse, not stopped and I therefore conclude my shingles is also resistant to famciclovir.

I also get immunoglobulin and that isn't stopping the shingles either even at a higher than recommended dose.

The other option is that it isn't shingles. I'm back at the immunology dept. in 2.5 weeks' time and will ask them again to look and diagnose the illness and treat me.