Reoccurring chickenpox and shingles.

[Crux]

Good lord, what hell .

The shingles outbreak is blisters. when they open, it feels like an acid splash. Once I had an outbreak in my liver area. I dry heaved for some hours. Cried too. Then numbness in liver area. Liver pain for months. ( years later I learned I had iron overload )

Viruses utilize iron to replicate. :
This paper describes viruses in general, specifically HIV and HCV :

https://fbscience.com/Landmark/articles/10.2741/4839

This paper is about how low iron tends to confer lower infection in general. (not that I recommend it )
It does have a paragraph about Lactoferrin, though not very descriptive.

https://jmhg.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s43042-020-00114-z

I'm hoping that lactoferrin will lower my VZV and viral load in general. I don't know what all I have, but probably many.

We with ME/CFS probably have a multitude of infections, many undetectable as yet. It's taken a lot to knock us down. Fight Fight.

 

[lenora]

I've never heard of shingles affecting organs such as the liver, @Crux. I swear that the more one learns, the more there is to learn about this illness....it's the never-ending story. We can only take each symptom as it shows up and see a Dr. or specialist for that particular problem.

Thinking about it, I'm amazed that we have any clinics at all that specialize in this illness. Stay well. Yours, L.

 

[Violeta]

Good lord, what hell .

The shingles outbreak is blisters. when they open, it feels like an acid splash. Once I had an outbreak in my liver area. I dry heaved for some hours. Cried too. Then numbness in liver area. Liver pain for months. ( years later I learned I had iron overload )

Viruses utilize iron to replicate. :
This paper describes viruses in general, specifically HIV and HCV :

https://fbscience.com/Landmark/articles/10.2741/4839

This paper is about how low iron tends to confer lower infection in general. (not that I recommend it )
It does have a paragraph about Lactoferrin, though not very descriptive.

https://jmhg.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s43042-020-00114-z

I'm hoping that lactoferrin will lower my VZV and viral load in general. I don't know what all I have, but probably many.

We with ME/CFS probably have a multitude of infections, many undetectable as yet. It's taken a lot to knock us down. Fight Fight.

That's so true about iron, and might be why red meat causes me to have a sore throat.

This is a bit of good news if you like coffee. (I only drink decaf)

Caffeic acid (CA) is a phenolic compound widely found in coffee beans with known beneficial effects in vivo. Many studies showed that CA has anti-inflammatory, anti-mutagenic, antibacterial and anti-carcinogenic properties, which could be linked to its antioxidant activity.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129963

 

[Booble]

As you describe your pox his how i had them at 31yo. Brush my teeth my mouth would bleed. Pick my nose it would bleed. Time for a poo, it would bleed. Post viral fatigue lingered on long after the pox scabbed up. I also had chickenpoxas a kid, so much foronly getting it once.
When i was 31 with the pox my 2yo daughter also had it but nowhere near as severe. When she was 12 she got another mild case of chickenpox. So something genetic predisposing us the varicella virus. My daughter is 21yo so far no shingles outbreaks. She doesnt have cfs but has pots/EDS , if thats related??

Holy crap! I'm so sorry you got hit that badly.
I'm a POTS person too.

When we were all little my brother who was about age 5 got just 2 pox. The doctor told my mum it wasn't chicken pox. But unfortunately it was and my sister who was about 2.5 got a mild to normal case and baby me got the full coverage.

I think I better rush to get the Shingles vaccine!

 

[Crux]

I've never heard of shingles affecting organs such as the liver, @Crux.

Well, hadn't thought about it much, but here we go , a person with VZV and other viruses ' expired.'

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crihep/2018/1269340/

Blood PCRs were positive with high levels of VZV and low levels of CMV. The CMV viremia was attributed to secondary reactivation due to her severely immunosuppressed state. VZV immune globulin was considered as therapy, but IVIG was administered instead due to her severe coagulopathy and thrombocytopenia. Outpatient skin biopsy cultures later confirmed VZV; PCR was positive for VZV and negative for HSV.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I had chicken pox at 6 months and have been told I had them head to toe with every inch of my body covered in pox. Including in my mouth and up my private areas.

I also had chicken pox when I was only a few months old. I have heard that babies who get it before turning one year old are more at risk for recurrences later on, perhaps because their immune system had not yet fully developed at the time they contracted chicken pox.

Because of my past shingles outbreaks, I take 1g valtrex four times daily. Originally, I only took it three times daily, but that just reduced the shingles rash to a few small blisters, it didn't get rid of the shingles altogether. I have not had any shingles outbreaks since I started taking it four times daily.

 

[Booble]

Well thanks alot, Pyrrhus.
Just kidding.

What is Valtrex?

 

[Pyrrhus]

What is Valtrex?

It is an antiviral medication that suppresses the Varicella Zoster Virus (VZV), which causes both chicken pox and shingles.

I am scheduled to get the shingles vaccine next year, at which point I may stop the valtrex.

 

[heapsreal]

Alot of focus on chickenpox and shingles is on the rash but even if there was no rash theres still that viral illness feeling just like if one had ebv/mono.
There are cases of varicella with no rash or its internal or mollarettes meningitis . So it can get nasty but its dismissed by many as an itchy sort of painful rash, i wish.

 

[Booble]

Alot of focus on chickenpox and shingles is on the rash but even if there was no rash theres still that viral illness feeling just like if one had ebv/mono.
There are cases of varicella with no rash or its internal or mollarettes meningitis . So it can get nasty but its dismissed by many as an itchy sort of painful rash, i wish.

That's interesting. I didn't know that.

 

[heapsreal]

More evidence for me anyhow, that varicella virus is an issue. About 10 days ago i had generalized headaches worse than normal and fatigue was shithouse, and it didnt seem like things were going to subside. One morning when i woke up, the pain on left side of my head where i had shingles was quite saw and throbbing and i dont want to call things to early. Id had a couple days off work sick prior but this day i couldnt afford not to go to work. Not telling anybody anything new but it was like walking in water up to my waste and above my neck was throbbing. Outside of working in waist deep water fatigue, i was just in bed.

As has been the last week, i got home from work took a pain killer and slept and hr but right side of my head still throbbing. Normally i take famvir 500mg in morning and 500mg at dinner. Hard to think straight when like this but before bed im getting my sleep cocktail ready and thought F it, there was a sheet of valtrex 500mg tabs and i took 2. The next morning i woke up still feeling shitty and went to work one foot in front of the other. Two hrs into my shift i had some clarity and pain and fatigue had eased off but kicked in again towards the end of the shift. When i got home i dropped a pain pill and another valtrex 500mg about 3pm. Before bed another 500mg valtrex, also sticking to my famvir regime.
So i had 1 day of the extra 1000mg of valtrex than 3 days of valtrex 500mg twice a day and i feel better than i have for atleast a couple of weeks. I might do another day of valtrex but i think its turned my headaches around. I will get my wife to check for pox scabs tonight. Ive tried this for generalised type chronic headaches but usually nothing but these right sided headaches where ive had shingles is a different story. So treatment can be diagnostic. Thought this might interest people and anecdotal evidence that shingles can be more than a 1 off thing.

 

[lenora]

@heapsreal......Sorry to hear about your headaches & I most sincerely (do I ever) hope that you aren't experiencing another round of shingles.

I've had it four times now. Three of them were in a row and I was bedridden for a year, and really still haven't recovered from something that occurred many years ago.

Have you had the newest vaccine (two shorts, spaced weeks apart)? It's 95% effective, people over 50 (I believe) can get it in the U.S. and if you're over 65 it's free. I live in mortal fear of ever having another round of shingles as it gets worse with each outbreak and the pain afterwards can be severe.

Let's hope that you're suffering from such a thing instead of another outbreak. One would think the valtrex would keep it away.....but with shingles, one can expect anything!

I've heard from people in other countries complaining about the cost of the vaccine. True, I believe it's about $350 but I have to say if you're inclined to get shingles, then the cost is worth it. Is there a special note your doctor can provide....I don't know how your country handles things. And what about the itching beforehand...did you have any of that? Of course you'd want to be especially careful of the eye area.

Odd, with all the things I have wrong, headaches over my head were never a problem. Now they are and I can't even put a bobby pin lightly into my hair. I do have sinus issues (or something going on) so I don't know what started the headaches. I don't even focus that much on my pain....I just try to let it ping off me or tell myself it will leave soon. Sometimes that works. Most of the time, really, but then I don't want one more doctor in my life for anything!

One area that can lead to problems is going to the dentist. Jaw problems radiating into the ear and headaches can be caused by TMJ, often if a back tooth is being pulled or the like. I just don't like anyone/anything messing with my body. I really hope it isn't shingles. Yours, Lenora.

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal......Sorry to hear about your headaches & I most sincerely (do I ever) hope that you aren't experiencing another round of shingles.

I've had it four times now. Three of them were in a row and I was bedridden for a year, and really still haven't recovered from something that occurred many years ago.

Have you had the newest vaccine (two shorts, spaced weeks apart)? It's 95% effective, people over 50 (I believe) can get it in the U.S. and if you're over 65 it's free. I live in mortal fear of ever having another round of shingles as it gets worse with each outbreak and the pain afterwards can be severe.

Let's hope that you're suffering from such a thing instead of another outbreak. One would think the valtrex would keep it away.....but with shingles, one can expect anything!

I've heard from people in other countries complaining about the cost of the vaccine. True, I believe it's about $350 but I have to say if you're inclined to get shingles, then the cost is worth it. Is there a special note your doctor can provide....I don't know how your country handles things. And what about the itching beforehand...did you have any of that? Of course you'd want to be especially careful of the eye area.

Odd, with all the things I have wrong, headaches over my head were never a problem. Now they are and I can't even put a bobby pin lightly into my hair. I do have sinus issues (or something going on) so I don't know what started the headaches. I don't even focus that much on my pain....I just try to let it ping off me or tell myself it will leave soon. Sometimes that works. Most of the time, really, but then I don't want one more doctor in my life for anything!

One area that can lead to problems is going to the dentist. Jaw problems radiating into the ear and headaches can be caused by TMJ, often if a back tooth is being pulled or the like. I just don't like anyone/anything messing with my body. I really hope it isn't shingles. Yours, Lenora.

Thanks for replying, i do appreciate it.
I have considered the vax but 2 things put me off. One is the cost here in Australia, its free when you're 75yo or something like that if not its $$$$, the other and main reason is before i stopped avs for ebv/cmv, i got tested for varicella and test came back saying i had very good immunity. Several days after stopping famvir the shingles hit hard. My cfs dr at the time said maybe it was saying good immunity but in reality you had high igg titres and a chronic active infection.

So i believe the vax increases igg antibidies to varicella, which is one way to control a viral infection. The other is a good innate immunity so nk function or probably need both innate and adaptive/antibodies to control viral infections. With my low nk function i have a feeling being vaxed for varicella wont help much as i have high antibodies anyway. I threw this at my dr and he said, im probably right. Id take a vax for nk cells👍 but they arent invented yet.

Sometimes i do think the pain is post herpetic neuralgia/trigeminal neuralgia. Sometimes i throw the extra antivirals and they stick and sometimes they dont. Currently no rash in the area but is abit itchy and painful if i scratch the area lightly.

 

[vision blue]

I read the entire third article that @Violeta posted. The finding was that nitric oxide (NO) has opposite effects on the herpes virus depending on whether the virus is in peripheral (trigeminal ) nervous syatem or central nervous system (brain astrocytrs and maybe glial cells). Increased NO reduces viral replication in the former but produces increased problems for the latter! (With a possible exception of very early in infection)
So basically, theres no clear action one can take here with respect to causing or blocking nitric oxide production.
I suppose one can look into whether food consumed nitric oxide (like arginine) crosses blod brain barrier ir not. If not, one coukdnt try to take that to reduce virus in trigeminal nerve but i woukdnt trust that for a variety of reasons.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta ,

It does seem unbelievable that calcium would protect from shingles outbreaks, but I attest that this is the longest time, 5 mnths. since I've had an outbreak in 10-12 years. I've been able to have lots of yogurt , which, in the past, would cause reactivation and neuralgia within hours.

I also take calcium chelate, (don't know the amino acid), by Source Naturals.

For 2 wks, now, I've been able to add Lactoferrin back to the stack. ( couldn't tolerate it for years). It's been shown to inhibit Herpes 1 and 2, but there's only speculation about VZV.

Calcium really works !

I have been taking calcium, mostly looking for less PHN, it still comes and goes, maybe a little less.

In a different thread discussing subject of adrenergic receptors made me wonder if adrenergic receptors were involved in shingles and found this study. It mentions calcium. I don't know what this means with respect to pain levels in PHN or the chance of a reoccurence.

I will tag you in the other thread.

"However, the baseline calcium concentration was increased. Neurons became de novo sensitive to adrenergic stimulation after VZV infection. Norepinephrine-responsive neurons were more frequent and calcium responses to norepinephrine were significantly higher after infection with wild-type isolates than with the attenuated vaccine strain OKA. The adrenergic agonists phenylephrine and isoproterenol had similar efficacy."

" We suggest that the infection with wild-type VZV isolates confers norepinephrine sensitivity to sensory neurons by using alpha(1)- and/or beta(1)-adrenergic receptors providing a model for the pathophysiology of the severe pain associated with the acute reactivation of VZV."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11292665/

 

[Crux]

I will tag you in the other thread.

This is a good idea.

 

[bread.]

I also had chicken pox when I was only a few months old. I have heard that babies who get it before turning one year old are more at risk for recurrences later on, perhaps because their immune system had not yet fully developed at the time they contracted chicken pox.

Because of my past shingles outbreaks, I take 1g valtrex four times daily. Originally, I only took it three times daily, but that just reduced the shingles rash to a few small blisters, it didn't get rid of the shingles altogether. I have not had any shingles outbreaks since I started taking it four times daily.

Any changes in your mecfs re Valtrex observable? Ty!

 

[Pyrrhus]

Any changes in your mecfs re Valtrex observable? Ty!

No. I didn't see any change in my ME symptoms with either Valtrex or Valcyte...

 

[Violeta]

Oxidative stress, caused by an imbalance between reactive oxygen species and antioxidants, is related to many dermatologic diseases. Increased reactive oxygen species is also associated with various decreased T-cell immune responses. The incidence and severity of herpes zoster (HZ), which is caused by the reactivation of varicella-zoster virus, increase with age because of declining cell-mediated immunity. The main purpose of this study was to assess the levels of oxidative stress biomarkers in patients with HZ compared with control subjects. In this case-control study, the serum levels of total antioxidant capacity (TAC), total oxidant status (TOS), oxidative stress index, glutathione, superoxide dismutase, and total polyphenol content (TPC) in 43 patients with HZ and 47 age-matched controls were determined, and their biomarker patterns were compared. TAC and TPC levels were significantly lower in patients with HZ; however, TOS and oxidative stress index levels were significantly higher in comparison with the control (P < .001). In addition, a significantly strong negative correlation was found between TAC and TPC with TOS levels in patients with HZ (r = -.79, P < .001; r = -.81, P < .001, respectively). Our findings showed an oxidative stress imbalance in HZ. Whether this change correlates with HZ pathogenesis or is a consequence of the inflammatory response to HZ needs more investigation.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29704435/

Marjan Khazan, 2018

 

[Violeta]

I seem to be working my way through this backwards. I started with taking Butcher's Broom for help with norepinephrine. Then I started taking tyrosine and sodium ascorbate to raise BH4 to deal with peroxynitrite.

Just a day or two ago I realized that superoxide dismutase is further up the chain and will interfere with peroxynitrite production, and that's where I'm at right now. When I looked to see if there was a supplement for increasing SOD, aronia berry was recommended, so I have ordered some of that. Won't get it til Wednesday.

But last night I realized that one step back would be finding out what is causing the need for superoxide dismutase. Where is all the superoxide coming from. Seems like a simple question, and I feel stupid saying it out loud, but maybe someone can help point me in the right direction.

" It is generated by the immune system to kill invading microorganisms. In phagocytes, superoxide is produced in large quantities by the enzyme NADPH oxidase for use in oxygen-dependent killing mechanisms of invading pathogens. Mutations in the gene coding for the NADPH oxidase cause an immunodeficiency syndrome called chronic granulomatous disease, characterized by extreme susceptibility to infection, especially catalase-positive organisms. In turn, micro-organisms genetically engineered to lack the superoxide-scavenging enzyme superoxide dismutase (SOD) lose virulence. Superoxide is also deleterious when produced as a byproduct of mitochondrial respiration (most notably by Complex I and Complex III), as well as several other enzymes, for example xanthine oxidase, which can catalyze the transfer of electrons directly to molecular oxygen under strongly reducing conditions."