Reoccurring chickenpox and shingles.

[jen1177]

I skimmed through the comments but it looks like no one has mentioned papaya enzyme. I've had chronic recurring shingles for years now. Possibly over a decade. I do feel that the pretty severe case of chicken pox I had at 19 is part of what triggered my ME although I don't think I've ever really been healthy. I've always had chronic pain and fatigue and all kinds of health issues. It all just keeps getting worse as I age (I'm 51). Anyway, back to the shingles...I have found that taking papaya enzyme works to keep it under control somewhat and also works to make a case of it go away sooner. I've been consuming chewable PE for a year or so and my cases of shingles are definitely reduced both in number and severity. Also I avoid nuts, especially peanuts. I'm not sure if it's the arginine or something else. Taking lysine regularly like a supplement did nothing and actually seemed to make me tired and constipated so I don't even bother taking it anymore prophylactically. Sometimes if I can't resist something with peanuts or peanut butter I will take a lysine pill with the meal in hopes that it will balance out the arginine. Sometimes that seems to work, but really not sure.

I have a prescription for valtrex on hand for when I get a particularly bad case of shingles. It's usually from stress and/or lack of sleep, and/or eating nuts/seeds. I've noticed that if I go too many days without taking a nap, it will bring on a case of shingles.

The papaya enzyme I take is "American Health Original Papaya Enzyme - chewable". I take 6 pills each day and then if I have a shingles outbreak I take 9 pills per day. I eat them on an empty stomach but I'm not sure if that matters. I have not had any major side effects from PE. Possibly occasional stomach acid problems, but not even sure it's from the PE.

 

[vision blue]

@jen1177 Great suggestion! Thanks much for posting it. Have not heard of that one. Is the idea that the same way it breaks down the protein in meat (hence "tenderizing" it), it breaks down the protein in the virus? that's cool. I wonder then maybe good when it's in your gut? )I wonder if there's also a way to use it as a spray up the nose? or would that "hurt".

speaking of which, glad you don't get side effects, but i've been very leery of trying anything which breaks down proteins, including both commercial and natural (LIke papaya) digestinve enzymes (for sugars, sure), because they apparently digest anything protein in their path, including yoru own tissue. i have a very sensitive esophagus, and i can see this digesting me from the inside out on its way down.

 

[Violeta]

This whole thread is so interesting to me. I had shingles in 2017, and actually thought I was going to die and didn't care. It's the worst think I've ever gone through. I still have intermittent postherpetic neuralgia and occassional very small outbreaks that seem more like chicken pox than shingles.

When I got shingles in 2017 I had just started a very low carb diet, had cut out gluten and dairy in a matter of a week or two. I was eating mainly eggs and bacon. This is quite entertaining in that now my worst return of symptoms is caused by eggs. Chicken does the same thing, strangely enough. (chicken pox)

I did read somewhere that calcium is important for keeping shingles at bay, I will have to look for where I found that. I try to eat some cheese every day, but may try a calcium supplement, too.

I also read that glutamate metabolism is involved. I'll look for that information, too.

I read that caffeine can bring on symptoms of PHN very quickly, and have found that to be true.

When the area of my face and scalp bothers me at night, I find taking calcarea carbonica 30C helps with the itching and helps me fall asleep.

 

[Violeta]

The link to glutamate was easy to find.

Here's one study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23350140/

And another:
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/186/Supplement_1/S78/838715

This study is related to HSAccumulated evidence suggests that nitric oxide (NO) is a key molecule in the pathogenesis of neurotropic virus infections. HSV-1, but may be relative as it is about "Accumulated evidence suggests that nitric oxide (NO) is a key molecule in the pathogenesis of neurotropic virus infections.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2019/2302835/


Things to look at:
NMDAreceptor, neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase,

 

[lenora]

Chronic cases of shingles are a true nightmare. Have you noticed that each outbreak is worse than the one before it?

When I heard about the newest vaccine for shingles (95% effective) I couldn't get in line fast enough. It's given over two doses and I have had an outbreak since. Good for those who are vaccine inclined. My cases were doing way too much damage and even now I still have residual pain in places. So many doctors really can't even recognize them. Remember that there is a period when the sores are seeping that it can be passed on to someone who hasn't had chicken pox, a vaccine or newborn babies. A hard illness for a baby to have. Lenora.

 

[Crux]

@Violeta ,

It does seem unbelievable that calcium would protect from shingles outbreaks, but I attest that this is the longest time, 5 mnths. since I've had an outbreak in 10-12 years. I've been able to have lots of yogurt , which, in the past, would cause reactivation and neuralgia within hours.

I also take calcium chelate, (don't know the amino acid), by Source Naturals.

For 2 wks, now, I've been able to add Lactoferrin back to the stack. ( couldn't tolerate it for years). It's been shown to inhibit Herpes 1 and 2, but there's only speculation about VZV.

Calcium really works !

 

[Crux]

It's given over two doses and I have had an outbreak since. Good for those who are vaccine inclined.

You've had an outbreak since the vaccine ? Bummer

 

[lenora]

Sorry @Crux.....can you believe that I even proofread that? No, I've never had an outbreak since. Thank goodness b/c another outbreak of shingles would find me trying to get into a special hospital for mental patients. That's how it can affect one if the attack is bad enough.

The last time I had one, it left me with anxiety that one couldn't even begin to understand.....if there's anything I fear the most it has to be shingles (on top of everything else). Yours, Lenora.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta ,

It does seem unbelievable that calcium would protect from shingles outbreaks, but I attest that this is the longest time, 5 mnths. since I've had an outbreak in 10-12 years. I've been able to have lots of yogurt , which, in the past, would cause reactivation and neuralgia within hours.

I also take calcium chelate, (don't know the amino acid), by Source Naturals.

For 2 wks, now, I've been able to add Lactoferrin back to the stack. ( couldn't tolerate it for years). It's been shown to inhibit Herpes 1 and 2, but there's only speculation about VZV.

Calcium really works !

I dug mine out!

 

[vision blue]

@Violeta Very cool on the NO, glutimate, possible associative learning, and humor (chicken pox...)

I have a recurrent virus ive posted about that i still dont for sure if zoster or hav1, i think the latter. But similar arguments apply

Whwn i first gor the big attack which has been life changing it was notlong after i i had to give up dairy; before that i was a daily cheese eater (lysine does nothi g for me excelt making me sick). Nevertbought of calcium . Also i am auper sensitive to glutimAte and my high bp suggests nitric oxide issues. Will read the papersyou posted. Thanks. Im like the perfect storm for herpes reactivationso

 

[vision blue]

@Violeta Just looked at the theee papers. The first link is just an abstract since the article is in russian. Does say that glutamate antagonist was useful for post herpetic pain which agree is i terrsting but that’s all it said unfortunately and there’s no way to read the article (anyone here read russian??)

Second article really does not seem relevant. It talks mostly about central sensitization, nothing really new there, and treatmen considerTiob section are all also standatd stuff mds consider: steroids, anti virals, tricyclic antidepressents (to block nor epinephrine reuptake). No discussion of role of glutimate (not counting the sentance on influx of calcium in glutimate receptors which is standard how pain works stuff)

Third article looks very i teresting tho and look forward to reading

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta ,

It does seem unbelievable that calcium would protect from shingles outbreaks, but I attest that this is the longest time, 5 mnths. since I've had an outbreak in 10-12 years. I've been able to have lots of yogurt , which, in the past, would cause reactivation and neuralgia within hours.

I also take calcium chelate, (don't know the amino acid), by Source Naturals.

For 2 wks, now, I've been able to add Lactoferrin back to the stack. ( couldn't tolerate it for years). It's been shown to inhibit Herpes 1 and 2, but there's only speculation about VZV.

Calcium really works !

I'm trying to figure out if calcium affects the glutamate receptor NMDA.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta Just looked at the theee papers. The first link is just an abstract since the article is in russian. Does say that glutamate antagonist was useful for post herpetic pain which agree is i terrsting but that’s all it said unfortunately and there’s no way to read the article (anyone here read russian??)

Second article really does not seem relevant. It talks mostly about central sensitization, nothing really new there, and treatmen considerTiob section are all also standatd stuff mds consider: steroids, anti virals, tricyclic antidepressents (to block nor epinephrine reuptake). No discussion of role of glutimate (not counting the sentance on influx of calcium in glutimate receptors which is standard how pain works stuff)

Third article looks very i teresting tho and look forward to reading

I have to go through the papers. I am looking for glutamate antagonists, must be natural, I don't take meds. I just remembered information about thiamine relative to glutamate, but I have to look it up. Bacopa Monnieri has some effect on NMDA receptors but I don't know if it's the right effect for postherpetic neuralgia.

I don't know much about nitric oxide, I don't know if that paper will be helpful, but it's interesting.

I don't know if these papers deal with avoiding reactivation, I'll try to get back into that tomorrow.


I'm so tired, I wish I wasn't so tired.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta ,

It does seem unbelievable that calcium would protect from shingles outbreaks, but I attest that this is the longest time, 5 mnths. since I've had an outbreak in 10-12 years. I've been able to have lots of yogurt , which, in the past, would cause reactivation and neuralgia within hours.

I also take calcium chelate, (don't know the amino acid), by Source Naturals.

For 2 wks, now, I've been able to add Lactoferrin back to the stack. ( couldn't tolerate it for years). It's been shown to inhibit Herpes 1 and 2, but there's only speculation about VZV.

Calcium really works !

This study says that people with hyperparathyroid, and thus higher calcium levels, are more likely to have more shingles outbreaks.
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/46/9/1452/330332

I wonder how this ties in to supplemental calcium reducing the change of outbreak.

Does anyone understand this well enough to explain how these two things would be related?

Also, I started taking calcium yesterday. Today I am feeling this strange relaxation. I am tired, it's true, my dog has a kidney problem and I have to take her out at least 3 times during the night and then again around 6AM, but I don't usually feel this sense of relaxation along with the fatigue. I had PHN last night but not right now.

I am wondering if the calcium supplement will possibly help other issues. That would be great.

Do you have an opinion of why taking calcium supplement made you not react to yogurt, which is certainly high in calcium.

 

[Crux]

This study says that people with hyperparathyroid, and thus higher calcium levels, are more likely to have more shingles outbreaks.

I would say there's a lot more going on in these patients. Some had neurological symptoms, some not. I don't know the causes of hyperparathyroidism, it's not known.
Secondary hyperparathyroidism, though it can be caused by low vitamin D. low calcium from excess phosphorus.

When I first started calcium after realizing I wasn't getting nearly enough, I felt tired too. I also felt relaxed after a lifetime of anxiety and off/ on insomnia.

I couldn't tolerate many foods, especially acidic ones. My blood serum calcium level was normal except about 12 years ago when I tried a combination of calcium and vitamin D. I became mildly hypercalcemic. Figured out I couldn't tolerate vitamin D. There were several possible causes for this, but the most salient one I figured out recently.

Vitamin D enhances calcium AND phosphorus uptake. With calcium deficiency phosphorus can accumulate and
harm organs such as heart and kidneys.

Now I can tolerate the phosphorus in yogurt, because it is high, but it's something to watch. That's why I dip into the supplement, to counter the phosphorus.

Often, calcium is blamed for the damage that phosphorus is doing, but, It's not good to take a lot of Ca.

I think calcium deficiency can cause demyelination, so nerves are disturbed, and shingles can reactivate and replicate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4754002/

"Demyelination may be seen in areas with mononuclear cell (MNC) infiltration and microglial proliferation. In acutely infected ganglia, intranuclear inclusions, viral antigen, and herpesvirus particles are present."

I haven't looked into it much, was just so thrilled to stop the outbreaks, even though I corralled them to the bum mainly, it was depressing.

Calcium is not antiviral itself.

 

[Violeta]

I would say there's a lot more going on in these patients. Some had neurological symptoms, some not. I don't know the causes of hyperparathyroidism, it's not known.
Secondary hyperparathyroidism, though it can be caused by low vitamin D. low calcium from excess phosphorus.

When I first started calcium after realizing I wasn't getting nearly enough, I felt tired too. I also felt relaxed after a lifetime of anxiety and off/ on insomnia.

I couldn't tolerate many foods, especially acidic ones. My blood serum calcium level was normal except about 12 years ago when I tried a combination of calcium and vitamin D. I became mildly hypercalcemic. Figured out I couldn't tolerate vitamin D. There were several possible causes for this, but the most salient one I figured out recently.

Vitamin D enhances calcium AND phosphorus uptake. With calcium deficiency phosphorus can accumulate and
harm organs such as heart and kidneys.

Now I can tolerate the phosphorus in yogurt, because it is high, but it's something to watch. That's why I dip into the supplement, to counter the phosphorus.

Often, calcium is blamed for the damage that phosphorus is doing, but, It's not good to take a lot of Ca.

I think calcium deficiency can cause demyelination, so nerves are disturbed, and shingles can reactivate and replicate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4754002/

"Demyelination may be seen in areas with mononuclear cell (MNC) infiltration and microglial proliferation. In acutely infected ganglia, intranuclear inclusions, viral antigen, and herpesvirus particles are present."

I haven't looked into it much, was just so thrilled to stop the outbreaks, even though I corralled them to the bum mainly, it was depressing.

Calcium is not antiviral itself.

It will be interesting to see if it helps my intermittent insomnia, or at least help me sleep more deeply and for longer stretches.

My food choices are very limited, too. Acidic foods and maybe foods high in phosphorus do bother me, too. I am hoping the calcium will help me tolerate more vitamin c.

Right now I have calcium citrate but ordered some calcium gluconate. Someone at a forum where I read posted a link about a vet that had found that chelated calcium is a better choice. I thought this was interesting.

https://equifeast-australia.com/mis...vfzCzUCe6utP90X9dQHP3ew6SQC3Hd5KVQ-Lzqk9bzw24

 

[Booble]

Oh boy, now you all got me nervous about getting shingles!
I had chicken pox at 6 months and have been told I had them head to toe with every inch of my body covered in pox. Including in my mouth and up my private areas.

 

[heapsreal]

Oh boy, now you all got me nervous about getting shingles!
I had chicken pox at 6 months and have been told I had them head to toe with every inch of my body covered in pox. Including in my mouth and up my private areas.

As you describe your pox his how i had them at 31yo. Brush my teeth my mouth would bleed. Pick my nose it would bleed. Time for a poo, it would bleed. Post viral fatigue lingered on long after the pox scabbed up. I also had chickenpoxas a kid, so much foronly getting it once.
When i was 31 with the pox my 2yo daughter also had it but nowhere near as severe. When she was 12 she got another mild case of chickenpox. So something genetic predisposing us the varicella virus. My daughter is 21yo so far no shingles outbreaks. She doesnt have cfs but has pots/EDS , if thats related??

 

[SWAlexander]

3 times I was diagnose with shingles in the US. Now I know for sure it was not shingles since the same symptoms appeared in April again. It is Petechia, at least in my case, as a hematologist diagnosed and explained in detail.
More reading on Petechia at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petechia

 

[lenora]

@SWAlexander....Hello. Trust me, you'd know if you had shingles...especially more than once.

@Booble....I know you're not greatly in favor of vaccines, but if there's one I would get in addition to COVID, it's the shingles vaccine. Two parts, weeks apart & has a success rate of 95%. I honestly don't think I could get through another attack of them. First one was fairly easy....but the others! But not all people are affected in the same way....so bear that in mind. They're more common as you get older.

Stress can bring it on, and I certainly can't remember being under any undue stress before I had them. This was before the antivirals were really in use, so that didn't help. I did take lysine then and for mos. afterwards, but I think it only succeeded in keeping me awake. To date, nothing again....but I'm ever watchful. Yours, Lenora.