Relationship between caffeine and B12 tolerance.

[Adlyfrost]

Doctors Data Urine Toxic Metals - might as well do Urine Essential Elements along with it. You can get them together or separately. It's typical for us to be low in minerals. The UEE will also show cobalt, where you can get a gauge of B12 in the cells. Mine has always been below detection limit


http://www.ch3nutrigenomics.com/phpBB3/welcome.html

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Is urine better than hair to test mins and toxic metals? Which test is better or do they measure different things?

 

[NilaJones]

Thank you so much for your help with this, Caledonia .

Doctors Data Urine Toxic Metals - might as well do Urine Essential Elements along with it. You can get them together or separately. It's typical for us to be low in minerals. The UEE will also show cobalt, where you can get a gauge of B12 in the cells. Mine has always been below detection limit



The oral form in your multi would be barely absorbed - basically the same as not taking it. I'm doing well with Yasko's Holistic Health Liquid Adenosylcobalamin - 1 mcg, four times a day (you have to dilute it down yourself).





I still think CBS could be a possibility even though the sulfate test is negative. I remember Yasko saying somewhere that people can have no indications of CBS until they start adding methyl groups. Have you had ammonia tested? Your COMT mutations could be at play here too. The jittery statement makes me think CBS, the hallucinate statement makes me think COMT.


What other kinds of methyl supplements are you taking, and what are the doses? Methylfolate, TMG, lecithin, SAMe, methionine, would all be examples.

I had the jittery/near-hallucinatory reaction before I took anything else. I do take lecithin now.

Are you taking molybdenum? If you're low in molydenum, sulfates may not be processed well. This will show up on the minerals test. I'm supplementing, and I'm still showing up in the yellow borderline deficiency band.

Not taking it, but I have some and could give it a try!

You can always go to the Yasko forum and ask over there. http://www.ch3nutrigenomics.com/phpBB3/welcome.html

 

[caledonia]

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Is urine better than hair to test mins and toxic metals? Which test is better or do they measure different things?

The urine one is fine for general use. Yasko uses the hair test for lithium levels. You can use the hair one if you have difficulty with using DMSA to provoke the metals into the urine.

Yasko uses non-provoked urine tests, but she has patients take followup tests extremely often and tracks the results over time. You might spend the money and get a "dud" too with this method - a test that doesn't show any metal excretion. She also has patients use urine, hair and fecal metals tests. In my opinion, this level of testing is overly expensive and unnecessary (for ME/CFS patients).

 

[NilaJones]

@caledonia: It may be a couple of months before I can do testing or reliably get mail (e.g. ordering adenosylB12) but I have noted these down, because they sound very good to try. Meanwhile, I have some molybdenum.

Do you think I should try the adenosylB12 before springing for a skype consult? Do people often react to it very differently from methyl and hydroxy? I could do the consult sooner...

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia: It may be a couple of months before I can do testing or reliably get mail (e.g. ordering adenosylB12) but I have noted these down, because they sound very good to try. Meanwhile, I have some molybdenum.

Do you think I should try the adenosylB12 before springing for a skype consult? Do people often react to it very differently from methyl and hydroxy? I could do the consult sooner...

Adenosyl isn't a methyl donor like the other two. My guess is you would do better with it, but then again, it's not going to help with methylation, only mitochondria. Of course, we all need help with that too.

My suggestion would be to do the Skype consult first, so you can hopefully figure out what the roadblock is and get over it soon.

Let us know what they say!

 

[Star-Anise]

B12 sources that make me jittery (above 1mcg) AND help enormously (at 1mcg or below):

Perque (hydroxy), Sisu (methyl), clams, crab. Maybe egg yolks and cheeses.

B12 sources that don't make me jittery (even above 4mcg) AND have no discernible health effect:

Beef, pork, lamb, goat, chicken, turkey, tuna, trout.

4mcg from sources on the first list would probably make me hallucinate, based on my reaction to 2mcg.

Does this tell you anything? Or do you have any ideas who I could consult about it, here or elsewhere?

Hi @NilaJones

I can only share from my own experience here.

I have had extensive adrenal difficulties. My reading/learning has been that with chronic health problems adrenals are always involved as is liver toxicity & such.

What I would do if I was having your symptoms:

a)

B12 sources that make me jittery (above 1mcg) AND help enormously (at 1mcg or below)

Don't try to up these. Stick with them at a dose that does not make you jittery. Your tolerance will increase over time. You could experiment with upping them gradually once you have had a stable 2 weeks or so, & you are emotionally prepared for the jittery-ness. In my experience the jittery-ness was part of the process of reawakening neural pathways related to energy metabolism. I read about some of this in Freddd's posts. It is an uncomfortable process, but for me was temporary. It still happens though now when I up dosages of things that are reactivating those pathways. It doesn't happen any more with folate & B12, but will with my St. John's Wort for example. These neurotransmitter pathways have been inactive for a long time with me, & reactivation is somewhat uncomfortable and painful. That's why I feel that the emotional preparation is key, but I already know that you are good with creating space around times when you are upping things and doing them on days that you are doing less.

Eventually if you are emotionally okay with it - you may want to experiment with the possibility of if you stayed at 1.25 mcg for example, whether the jittery-ness would dissipate after a few days & your body would readjust at the new dose. But my sense is that you all already have a sense of titrating up for you - because that is what you have been doing for the past year.

b)

B12 sources that don't make me jittery (even above 4mcg) AND have no discernible health effect:

Up these, alot. These are likely foundation building for you. Don't make the mistake thinking that they are not doing anything. Especially with the meat sources they are going to help support your adrenal glands. During my healing I had to eat meat, a lot of it. As much as I could tolerate in fact. It was a critical part of my healing.

My hunch is that with the more agitating forms of B12 the jittery-ness - you are getting jittery for one of two reasons:

a) intense detox symptoms & reactivation of neural pathways

b) histamine response from leaky gut problems. One can't make any sense of leaky gut symptoms - i.e. why do I react to this, and not this.

It could be that these meat sources do have a different concentration of types of B12 as I think you were speaking of before. But I don't know if you will ever be able to determine this.

Generally with the jittery foods - I wouldn't necessarily avoid them at this point if you feel at smaller doses they are beneficial, I would just be wary.

For heavy metal detox: I would really encourage you to connect with Theresa Vernon, & do a hair test with her. She is *amazing.* The approach is a bit of a "mind-bend" in that basically you are on a bunch of multivitamins - one with plain folate in it, but just like everything you would have to go slow if you decide to take the vitamins. Nonetheless you could get her feedback about your current metal statuses & mineral imbalances.

All the very best, & ciao for now S

 

[Star-Anise]

@NilaJones
Adenosyl-B12 is one of my friends. I noticed a big difference in energy metabolism when I introduced it. But ++detox symptoms as well (edema, tiredness, gross-like feeling), so go slooooooowwwwwww, as you likely would have done anyways . I agree with Caledonia - there is a chance you might tolerate it better.
S

 

[NilaJones]

Thank you, @caledonia and @Star-Anise! I will follow up on your suggestions .

I don't think histamine is part of the jitteriness -- at least, the other histamine things I react to give me intense inflammation in my joints and this does not -- is it possible to have a different kind of reaction?