Relationship between caffeine and B12 tolerance.

[Adlyfrost]

Thanks @caledonia for attaching "Dr. Amy's Simplified Road Map to Health." In it she states about methylB12:
"MethylB12 can be used in the body, though it cannot be tolerated by everyone. Those who get jittery from caffeine, coke, tea may not react as well to methylB12. Many adults don‟t do as well
with methyl B12 in spite of their nutrigenomics and so it is fine to choice an alternative form."

I wish I had read this earlier. My tolerance to methylB12 sublingually is so much like my tolerance to coffee. Anyone know why?

 

[sregan]

Do you know your genetics? If you are COMT ++ that might be why. I process Caffeine very slowing but seem to do ok on MB12

 

[Adlyfrost]

Do you know your genetics? If you are COMT ++ that might be why. I process Caffeine very slowing but seem to do ok on MB12

Interesting. In process of getting them tested now. Thx.

 

[xchocoholic]

Imho, caffeine isn't the only chemical in coffee, tea, etc that may be causing people to feel jittery. A quick google showed over 1000 chemicals are found in coffee.

I use a tiny bit of caffeine (appr 25 mg) from Leader brand caffeine pills (200mg) to get me moving. I've never taken a whole tablet or needed it to wake me up. But this NEVER makes me jittery. It makes my heart race sometimes but not always.

Fwiw. I allow it to dissolve in my mouth and specifically use it to counter sleepiness or malaise.

Tc ... x

 

[Adlyfrost]

see POLL: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...side-effects-on-methylb12-and-caffeine.32734/

Thanks!

 

[Adlyfrost]

Do you know your genetics? If you are COMT ++ that might be why. I process Caffeine very slowing but seem to do ok on MB12

Found an interesting thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/comt.20337/

 

[whodathunkit]

MethylB12 can be used in the body, though it cannot be tolerated by everyone. Those who get jittery from caffeine, coke, tea may not react as well to methylB12.

This is definitely not the case for everyone. All my life I have reacted negatively to moderate doses of caffeine, but I loves me my methylB12. Don't plan to live without mB12 again.

"Moderate" = more than two cups of coffee, tea, or coke, any "energy drinks", energy pills, ephedra (horrible!), etc. I can generally tolerate one cup of coffee, tea, or coke okay. Two cups is usually pushing it. More than two is asking for trouble. Don't tolerate even a small amount of an "energy drink" or energy pill well at all.

For whatever that's worth. I don't know my snps so can't help there. Mainly just trying to illustrate that generalizations aren't necessarily true in every case.

 

[PennyIA]

This is interesting.

FWIW - I never used to have an issue with caffeine. I'm not a tea nor coffee drinker, but could drink Pepsi products all day long, all evening long (don't drink as much now, to make room for more water). But I could still sleep without issue, never felt jittery, never felt a negative response.

I was up to 20mg of sublingual B12 with no negative reactions whatsoever (albeit this was before I tried taking methylfolate or really understanding MTHFR).

But, now that I've improved my methylation cycle with supplements? I can't drink any caffeine after 6pm if I want to sleep that night - still no jitters, but insomnia instead. Since I only drink one pepsi on my normal days - this isn't a big deal... but it does throw a wrench into the rare situations where Pepsi would be my only option for a variety of reasons and I can't get any water.

I did get really, REALLY bad jitters from treatment with something that was supposed to help adrenals (slow or sluggish or overly ramped up). The doctor kept telling me it would help, and to stick with it. But I was vibrating so bad that every muscle would scream .... yeah. NO TOLERANCE AT ALL. And this was on an 1/8th of a tablet after he wanted me to start full tablets.

 

[Adlyfrost]

This is definitely not the case for everyone. All my life I have reacted negatively to moderate doses of caffeine, but I loves me my methylB12. Don't plan to live without mB12 again.

"Moderate" = more than two cups of coffee, tea, or coke, any "energy drinks", energy pills, ephedra (horrible!), etc. I can generally tolerate one cup of coffee, tea, or coke okay. Two cups is usually pushing it. More than two is asking for trouble. Don't tolerate even a small amount of an "energy drink" or energy pill well at all.

For whatever that's worth. I don't know my snps so can't help there. Mainly just trying to illustrate that generalizations aren't necessarily true in every case.

Fascinating! Thanks! Please vote in the poll if you have time @whodathunkit! http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...side-effects-on-methylb12-and-caffeine.32734/

 

[Adlyfrost]

This is interesting.

FWIW - I never used to have an issue with caffeine. I'm not a tea nor coffee drinker, but could drink Pepsi products all day long, all evening long (don't drink as much now, to make room for more water). But I could still sleep without issue, never felt jittery, never felt a negative response.

I was up to 20mg of sublingual B12 with no negative reactions whatsoever (albeit this was before I tried taking methylfolate or really understanding MTHFR).

But, now that I've improved my methylation cycle with supplements? I can't drink any caffeine after 6pm if I want to sleep that night - still no jitters, but insomnia instead. Since I only drink one pepsi on my normal days - this isn't a big deal... but it does throw a wrench into the rare situations where Pepsi would be my only option for a variety of reasons and I can't get any water.

I did get really, REALLY bad jitters from treatment with something that was supposed to help adrenals (slow or sluggish or overly ramped up). The doctor kept telling me it would help, and to stick with it. But I was vibrating so bad that every muscle would scream .... yeah. NO TOLERANCE AT ALL. And this was on an 1/8th of a tablet after he wanted me to start full tablets.

Interesting- maybe its the combo of B12 with folate then. Or maybe some people can't tolerate lots of methyl donors- (I think I read that somewhere but I just started and know nothing). Tolerance may depend on one's genetics and diet? I think caffeinated beverages are methyl donors and so are leafy greens? As @sregan said, COMT++ MIGHT have problems with methylB12. Could diet along with genes play a part in this jittery affect?

 

[Critterina]

Like i posted on your poll, my tolerance was always at MOST half a cup of coffee, but I can eat (dissolve sublingually) MB12 like candy. I trialed a bunch one day - no ill effects, except maybe expensive pee.

 

[caledonia]

Thanks @caledonia for attaching "Dr. Amy's Simplified Road Map to Health." In it she states about methylB12:
"MethylB12 can be used in the body, though it cannot be tolerated by everyone. Those who get jittery from caffeine, coke, tea may not react as well to methylB12. Many adults don‟t do as well
with methyl B12 in spite of their nutrigenomics and so it is fine to choice an alternative form."

I wish I had read this earlier. My tolerance to methylB12 sublingually is so much like my tolerance to coffee. Anyone know why?

I don't know the answer for sure, but I think it's going to be at least somewhat complex. Yasko said "despite nutrigenomics" so I would rule out COMT for the answer.

You can feel anxious from B12 if you have CBS problems.
You can feel anxious from caffeine if you have adrenal problems.
The CYP1A2 gene detoxifies caffeine, among other substances. A mutation means you're a fast caffeine metabolizer. I'm not sure if being fast or slow would make you jittery.

 

[Critterina]

Thanks @caledonia ,

Being a slow metabolizer prolongs/intensifies the effect of the drug/substance.
Interesting about the relationship between caffeine and adrenal problems!!!

 

[whodathunkit]

You can feel anxious from caffeine if you have adrenal problems.

D'oh! What a caveat to forget! That's me!

And I knew that. But sometimes these days I forget I have adrenal problems, since they're just not the issue they used to be. They're still around, but I really have to push myself to crash from adrenals. Used to be, sometimes just talking on the phone with certain people would do it. I'd be screwed for days.

Thanks for the reminder, Caledonia!

 

[NilaJones]

@caledonia, and all:
I took 2mcg (not mg) of B12 monday and was shaky for 7 hours, then crashed HARD. Caffeine is the same, for me. No anxiety.

Over the past 2 years, I have worked up to 1mcg B12 as a daily dose. It took that long.

Does this sound to you like an adrenal thing? Or something else? I'd appreciate any insight!

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia, and all:
I took 2mcg (not mg) of B12 monday and was shaky for 7 hours, then crashed HARD. Caffeine is the same, for me. No anxiety.

Over the past 2 years, I have worked up to 1mcg B12 as a daily dose. It took that long.

Does this sound to you like an adrenal thing? Or something else? I'd appreciate any insight!

Wow, that is quite sensitive. The bad thing is you have the B12 Double Whammy, so you are likely to need B12 and be deficient in it (I have the same SNPs.) It's just perverse when you can't tolerate what you so desperately need.

Have you investigated CBS? You have several BHMT SNPs and a minor CBS SNP, so the potential is there.

Have you tried another form of B12?

 

[NilaJones]

Wow, that is quite sensitive. The bad thing is you have the B12 Double Whammy, so you are likely to need B12 and be deficient in it (I have the same SNPs.) It's just perverse when you can't tolerate what you so desperately need.

Have you investigated CBS? You have several BHMT SNPs and a minor CBS SNP, so the potential is there.

Have you tried another form of B12?

I've tried methyl and hydroxy B12, and they are the same for me.

Is CBS the the sulfur strips thing? I tested that; all clear.

I'm frustrated, trying to figure out how to get more B12.

So, is there no data / theory on why some of us react to it so strongly?

 

[caledonia]

I've tried methyl and hydroxy B12, and they are the same for me.

Is CBS the the sulfur strips thing? I tested that; all clear.

I'm frustrated, trying to figure out how to get more B12.

So, is there no data / theory on why some of us react to it so strongly?

Could also be metal detox (or other toxins), could be low potassium. Metals may take many months or even years to come out. I'm about 2 years in and still stuck at extremely low amounts because if I increase, I start to get uncomfortable symptoms from the metal detox (not quite as low as yours, but still, way down there).

Are you supplementing with potassium? This was a big roadblock for me.

Maybe lithium deficiency? Lithium helps with B12 transport. If you don't have enough of that, maybe the B12 is unmetabolized and causing problems? You would think Yasko would mention that though if that was the case.

Have you done a toxic metals test to see what your metal status is?

Have you tried different brands of methyl and hydroxy B12 - there could be a problem with fillers, not actual substance.

Have you tried adenosylcoblamin, and how does that affect you?

Maybe keeping to food sources would be preferable. Sometimes people do better if the substance is complexed in food.

 

[NilaJones]

Thank you, @caledonia! Please excuse conciseness: painful typing.

Could also be metal detox (or other toxins), could be low potassium. Metals may take many months or even years to come out. I'm about 2 years in and still stuck at extremely low amounts because if I increase, I start to get uncomfortable symptoms from the metal detox (not quite as low as yours, but still, way down there).

Are you supplementing with potassium? This was a big roadblock for me.

Yes. I find food forms work best for me.

Maybe lithium deficiency? Lithium helps with B12 transport. If you don't have enough of that, maybe the B12 is unmetabolized and causing problems? You would think Yasko would mention that though if that was the case.

I think it is metabolized, because it has helped me a LOT. But maybe it could be metabolized better?

Have you done a toxic metals test to see what your metal status is?

No, and I think I should. What tests are good?

Have you tried different brands of methyl and hydroxy B12 - there could be a problem with fillers, not actual substance.

No. However, I react to some foods same way. More info below.

Have you tried adenosylcoblamin, and how does that affect you?

Not tried. (In my multi; don't think I absorb it.) Good brands?

Maybe keeping to food sources would be preferable. Sometimes people do better if the substance is complexed in food.

I found it milder, but same effect (or no effect, depending on species).

B12 sources that make me jittery (above 1mcg) AND help enormously (at 1mcg or below):

Perque (hydroxy), Sisu (methyl), clams, crab. Maybe egg yolks and cheeses.

B12 sources that don't make me jittery (even above 4mcg) AND have no discernible health effect:

Beef, pork, lamb, goat, chicken, turkey, tuna, trout.

4mcg from sources on the first list would probably make me hallucinate, based on my reaction to 2mcg.

Does this tell you anything? Or do you have any ideas who I could consult about it, here or elsewhere?

Thanks so much!

I'd better @Critterina and @Star-Anise here .

 

[caledonia]

Thank you, @caledonia! Please excuse conciseness: painful typing.

Yes. I find food forms work best for me.

I think it is metabolized, because it has helped me a LOT. But maybe it could be metabolized better?

No, and I think I should. What tests are good?

Doctors Data Urine Toxic Metals - might as well do Urine Essential Elements along with it. You can get them together or separately. It's typical for us to be low in minerals. The UEE will also show cobalt, where you can get a gauge of B12 in the cells. Mine has always been below detection limit

(Adenosyl) Not tried. (In my multi; don't think I absorb it.) Good brands?

The oral form in your multi would be barely absorbed - basically the same as not taking it. I'm doing well with Yasko's Holistic Health Liquid Adenosylcobalamin - 1 mcg, four times a day (you have to dilute it down yourself).

Jittery, hallucinate

Does this tell you anything? Or do you have any ideas who I could consult about it, here or elsewhere?

I still think CBS could be a possibility even though the sulfate test is negative. I remember Yasko saying somewhere that people can have no indications of CBS until they start adding methyl groups. Have you had ammonia tested? Your COMT mutations could be at play here too. The jittery statement makes me think CBS, the hallucinate statement makes me think COMT.

What other kinds of methyl supplements are you taking, and what are the doses? Methylfolate, TMG, lecithin, SAMe, methionine, would all be examples.

Are you taking molybdenum? If you're low in molydenum, sulfates may not be processed well. This will show up on the minerals test. I'm supplementing, and I'm still showing up in the yellow borderline deficiency band.

You can always go to the Yasko forum and ask over there. http://www.ch3nutrigenomics.com/phpBB3/welcome.html