Reddit moderators deleting posts of people claiming they developed long covid from vaccine

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borko2100

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I was just reading this, when I realized it was removed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/covidlonghaulers/comments/otcn4a
I hope vaccines do not induce long covid or me/cfs, but the militant pro-vax sentiment on reddit and other places is just too much.

I wonder, if vaccines indeed do cause long covid or cfs in some people how they will be treated? Probably even worse than us, because people getting chronic illness from a vaccine doesn't fit the government agenda to vaccinate everyone. So they have a motive to ignore and bury such individuals. And it's not like this has not happened before, quite a few people have gotten a chronic debilitating illness (narcolepsy) from a swine flu vaccine less than 10 years ago. And the funny thing is back the vaccine back then was rushed too, just like now.

I know vaccines are safe, but come on, you need at least a few years to do some testing. Most drugs go trough at least 5 years (and often > 10) of testing before being released to the public. Anyway I'm just rambling now. I'm probably wrong and the vaccine it's safe, we'll see.
 

SNT Gatchaman

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As I understand it (at least for the mRNA vaccines), the rapid development pace compared with the expected 5 years, was due to working smarter - and therefore much faster. Normally you perform the development steps in series. If Step A passes, proceed to B, then C etc. Due to the many years of work on this technology before we even knew of COVID, they had a huge head start and were able to proceed with steps A -> E in parallel, assuming (correctly as it turned out) that each preceding step would be AOK.
 
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hey had a huge head start and were able to proceed with steps A -> E in parallel, assuming (correctly as it turned out) that each preceding step would be AOK.
the companies (well, Pfizer at least) took a large financial risk to proceed in this manner.

in many ways, its incredibly admirable, what they did, because it could have turned out very differently.
 

JES

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What would have happened if the world had waited a few years before using the vaccine?
More lockdowns and deaths. For example in India it seems that two thirds of the population have already developed antibodies against COVID, so the more the vaccine gets delayed, the less useful it becomes.

I guess it could theoretically be possible to develop long COVID from vaccination, assuming that long COVID is not caused by viral persistence, but rather by the immune system, which is not at all established at this point. If we assume long COVID is more related to the immune response, then it means you could develop it from either the vaccine or the virus, but if you don't get vaccinated, you'll likely catch the virus anyhow sooner or later, so doesn't seem to make a difference.

For ME/CFS patients in isolation, you could make a better case for delaying vaccination, but then again, we are already sick. I don't think you go on to develop long COVID on top of ME/CFS or at least it wouldn't make a big difference to many of us that are already dealing with similar symptoms.
 

wabi-sabi

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I hope vaccines do not induce long covid
Per my understanding of the vaccine, it's actually not possible.

Thing is, you need to get COVID to get long COVID. The vaccine doesn't actually contain any virus, just a bitty bit of mRNA, not even enough mRNA to make a virus. So you can no more get COVD or long COVD from the vaccine than you could from an injection of salt water. It's just not in there.

That's not to say you can't get side effects. I felt icky for days after my shots. But that's certainly not the same thing as getting the long or short version of COVID.

I know it's a tender topic, but I 'm honestly relieved when vaccine misinformation gets taken off the internet.
 

Alvin2

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Considering side effects that affect 1 in 100,000 are investigated i suspect long covid from the vaccine is a false flag operation.
Some placebo effect is possible as well but those who oppose vaccinations claiming side effects then claiming coverup does not scream good faith.
 

Alvin2

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Ok, we can say that vaccines cannot give you "long covid". But can vaccines give you ME/CFS? At this point, we don't know enough to say that the answer is definitely "no".

p.s. I'm not an anti-vaxxer.
We don't know that vaccines can't give you long covid but its highly unlikely. And the coverup claims are the same BS they use to argue against anything they want to deny away.

Similarly they make up nonsense claims such as the vaccine reduces fertility, has nanobots in it, will lead to mind control and so forth. They are just looking for a wedge issue to turn people against their own best interests. If 500 lies don't gain traction maybe number 501 will. Or 10,001. And if they can weaponize ME/CFS they will, many are happy to claim ME/CFS doesn't exist or is in people's heads but if the vaccine may cause it they will be happy to use it as argument number 10,002.

All that said if the vaccine does cause ME/CFS it will be caught, the vaccine is under a strong microscope and reactions gain notoriety quickly in todays world. The real risk is that the CBT/GET crowd gains an audience and hijacks that narrative and the media falls for it. So if the vaccine causes ME/CFS and society decides to turn on the victims.
 
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hapl808

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I wonder, if vaccines indeed do cause long covid or cfs in some people how they will be treated?
We know exactly how they will be treated. If they speak out, they will be branded a nutjob hypochondriac. So they will either be labeled as that, or will suffer in silence. This is a familiar refrain for us.

We don't know that vaccines can't give you long covid but its highly unlikely. And the coverup claims are the same BS they use to argue against anything they want to deny away.
I don't know that it's highly unlikely. Assuming Long Covid is a form of ME/CFS (which I think is very possible), then how can we say it's something that we have no clue why it happens, but then rule out specific thing as the cause? You're purposefully triggering the immune system. My decline from moderate CFS to severe was triggered by an allergic reaction.

All that said if the vaccine does cause ME/CFS it will be caught, the vaccine is under a strong microscope and reactions gain notoriety quickly in todays world. The real risk is that the CBT/GET crowd gains an audience and hijacks that narrative and the media falls for it. So if the vaccine causes ME/CFS and society decides to turn on the victims.
This is already happening with Long Covid itself. Initially they said it was PTSD from getting Covid. Then when it seemed unlikely that millions were suffering from PTSD simultaneously, they had things like the BMJ article by the doctor who 'cured' his Long Covid by thinking healthy thoughts basically.

If the vaccine causes 100k cases of ME/CFS, it will not be caught - it will be collateral damage. No conspiracy theories from me - just as I've mentioned elsewhere that a good portion of doctors don't really believe in ME/CFS, even if they give it lip service. Until there are clear diagnostics, it is easy to deny it. We will likely see a rise in antidepressant RXes, plus some breathless articles over the next five years called, The Hidden Psychological Damage from the SARS-CoV-2 Pandemic.
 

hapl808

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Considering side effects that affect 1 in 100,000 are investigated i suspect long covid from the vaccine is a false flag operation.
A 'false flag' operation? To me, that is the language of conspiracy theorists, not debunking of them.

Side effects are investigated. In JNJ I believe they had one clotting problem fatality out of maybe 20k people. It was investigated and determined not to be vaccine related (because at the time we were unaware of any mechanism that would cause that). Clotting problems are not difficult to see or even diagnose with the proper attention.

ME/CFS is impossible to see or diagnose other than the patient's subjective reports. Even now, the most common long term effect from Long Covid (even from breakthroughs) is fatigue. What does 'fatigue' mean? Is that 'I feel tired for 20 mins when I wake up' or more 'I am so exhausted that someone playing the TV in the next room makes me crash'. Which one of those sounds like a mental disease?
 

Alvin2

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I don't know that it's highly unlikely. Assuming Long Covid is a form of ME/CFS (which I think is very possible), then how can we say it's something that we have no clue why it happens, but then rule out specific thing as the cause? You're purposefully triggering the immune system. My decline from moderate CFS to severe was triggered by an allergic reaction.
I didn't say impossible i said highly unlikely, And your possible fits that.
When they catch things like the blood clots that are extremely rare they will catch something more common.
This is already happening with Long Covid itself. Initially they said it was PTSD from getting Covid. Then when it seemed unlikely that millions were suffering from PTSD simultaneously, they had things like the BMJ article by the doctor who 'cured' his Long Covid by thinking healthy thoughts basically.

If the vaccine causes 100k cases of ME/CFS, it will not be caught - it will be collateral damage. No conspiracy theories from me - just as I've mentioned elsewhere that a good portion of doctors don't really believe in ME/CFS, even if they give it lip service. Until there are clear diagnostics, it is easy to deny it. We will likely see a rise in antidepressant RXes, plus some breathless articles over the next five years called, The Hidden Psychological Damage from the SARS-CoV-2 Pandemic.
Your own example shows how they went form PTSD to biological. And fast.
The worlds eyes are on everything covid. It would be a gift to us if ME/CFS and long covid are the same or related. Even a fraction of those billions being spent on long covid helping us would be a windfall!
 

Alvin2

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A 'false flag' operation? To me, that is the language of conspiracy theorists, not debunking of them.
Conspiracy theorists lying to convince people their conspiracy theory is real is one of their tactics. They project their own penchant for fraud onto everyone else.
 

hapl808

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When they catch thigns like the blood clots htat are extrmely rare they will catch somethign more common.
We're decades in and they can't definitively diagnose ME/CFS in ANYONE. There is no conspiracy. If there is cancer in 2/100k people, they'll catch it even if it takes years. But for things where the diagnosis itself is amorphous, they will not blame it on vaccines until someone can prove the mechanism and the diagnosis.

They went from PTSD to biological fast - because millions of people got it all at once. If it had stopped at 100k, they never would have moved off of PTSD.

If the vaccines cause 10k cases of ME/CFS, I can't imagine how they would 'catch' that?

(And to be clear, I'm not saying the vaccines will cause any of that - I still have no idea what causes ME/CFS in spite of decades of studying it and examining all related disorders and explanations. I'm not even sure if ME/CFS is the right term, or what we're all talking about.)

I do think our biggest hope is that Long Covid and ME/CFS are the exact same thing. If they find a treatment or diagnostic tool that works with one, it may work with the other.
 

hapl808

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Conspiracy theorists lying to convince people their conspiracy theory is real is one of their tactics. They project their own penchant for fraud onto everyone else.
:) You do realize the irony there, though?

I think there are few true conspiracies because people are hard to organize. Most conspiracies are well meaning people who believe their own theories.

Big pharma is not sitting in their underground lair planning the next pandemic. I think Pfizer believes they are saving the world, and making a few billion is a pittance compared to the good they are doing (a reasonable assumption). They did not look for ME/CFS in the trials or include people like us because that would make it more likely to fail or have hard to interpret results, and they truly believe it is impossible for vaccines to cause ME/CFS or worsen our inexplicable conditions.

Initially they said the only serious adverse from vaccines was anaphylaxis and that any other serious event was not possible because that's not how vaccines work. The cases of myocarditis and thrombocytopenia show that is not accurate. That said, the immense good of the vaccines hugely outweigh any potential negatives for almost any population. Individuals can still be unlucky, however, which is the case for any medical intervention.
 

hapl808

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the companies (well, Pfizer at least) took a large financial risk to proceed in this manner.
Pfizer took a risk, but I'm not sure it was a huge risk? They had a huge guaranteed payoff if they could make it work, and they already knew their supply chain and regulatory skill. BIONTECH was smart to partner with them. They calculated that the risk was so worth it that I believe they refused Warp Speed money because they didn't want the Warp Speed constraints. They have no liability and billions of dollars in revenue. That seems like a pretty smart bet. Obviously if they calculated incorrectly and BIONTECH's technology was a bust, then they would've lost the R&D money, but that's the business of pharma - their wins have to make up for their losses and we pay that difference.
 
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