POLL: Crimson Crescents In Your Throat? Know Your Coxsackievirus B Titers? ME/CFS Onset After Mono?

[teacup]

On second look, these pics seem fairly normal, no?...yet I look sooo red when I shine a light in! Who knows, I suppose whether or not I feel like they are crescent won't actually change anything

 

[halcyon]

I just get wary because I've struggled with dizziness for a year (which, weirdly, has been gone for the weeks that I've felt tired).

I definitely understand and don't mean to diminish your situation at all. I hope that you are able to get some good rest and that these symptoms clear up quickly.

In those new pictures the redness does look closer to the tonsillar pillar rather than the tonsil itself so those could be crimson cresents. Cunha did say that he found these also in non CFS patients keep in mind:

Cunha found crimson crescents in 3% to 5% of non-chronic fatigue patients who presented with non-specific sore throats. Patients who present with mononucleosis or Group A strep do not have the crescents, nor do those with cytomegalovirus pharyngitis or the common viral pharyngitis, according to Cunha.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Stupid question but what is the best way to actually take the picture to capture the crimson crescents? Do you put the iPhone inside of your mouth at an upward angle? I am certain that I have them but I had chronic tonsilitis throughout my entire childhood prior to mono.

 

[Hip]

It is not that easy to get a good picture.

I took a picture of my crimson crescents using a digital camera (Canon IXUS), with the camera set to macro (close up), and also holding a small flashlight in the mouth for illumination (my pic is the second one in the post at the start of this thread). It is a bit easier with digital camera, because you can put the camera lens inside your mouth, and the camera's macro setting lets you move in close yet remaining in focus.

You can use a smartphone camera, though, but it takes a little perseverance.

The hardest thing is getting your tongue low enough and out of the way so that you can get a good view of the whole arch of the soft palete. I found if you open your mouth wide as if to start a yawn, that helps to move the tongue downwards so that you get a better view of the arch and the crimson crescents.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Thanks @Hip and I may try this some day when I am feeling up to it and am curious if you guys confirm that I have crimson crescents or not. I think I do but I have no sore throat or symptoms to go with it (since mono in 2012.)

 

[teacup]

Yeah I don't even have a "selfie camera" so it was quite difficult. I don't know. My mom seems to have purple ones and she doesn't have CFS. Perhaps they are smaller, thinner, and more defined then I am worrying about.

I couldn't really find pictures of healthy throats on the internet as people only seem to take pictures of unhealthy ones haha

Then I got around that by searching "uvula piercing" (little bit gross, but gave me an abundance of normal throat pictures!)...and honestly, in many of them I could see the slight redness arching up to the uvula just like with me.

Utterly wiped out today....still stressing about all this

 

[Jackysway]

I think I can feel the bumps on the soft palate but I can't see them. They feel worse when my overall condition is worse, and better when it is better. Is that a common experience?

What are these bumps on the soft palate your talking about because I think I may have them too. I am not diagnosed CFS I'm currently trying to figure out if I have active coxsackie virus.

 

[jepps]

There´s a interaction between streptococcus and coxsackie virus:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ci_in_rheumatic_heart_disease_and_myocarditis

A variety of clinical, epidemiological, and experimental data suggest that rheumatic heart disease and autoimmune myocarditis are not only similar in their pathogenesis, but may often be due to combined infections with coxsackie virus (CX) and streptococcus A bacteria (SA).

Thus, it is possible that combined CX-SA infections produce more severe disease by producing pairs of idiotypic antibodies that act like antiidiotypic antibodies as well, thereby, disregulating immune control and triggering an autoimmune reaction against both myosin and actin simultaneously. We predict that combinations of the appropriate actin- and myosin-like antigens from CX and SA will, therefore, be much more autoimmunogenic than antigens from CX or SA alone,

 

[lauluce]

good post, could you please add the option "I'm not sure if I got crimson crescents"? the back of my throat ceratinly seems abnormal, and also when my first symptoms started it surely ached and seemed inflamed, but I can't decide if I am seeing crimson crescents or not, I think its easy to be subjective on that. Thanks!

 

[Hip]

I can't decide if I am seeing crimson crescents or not, I think its easy to be subjective on that.

Why not take a picture and post it, so that others can see. This is best done with a digital camera set on macro (close up), though a phone camera will also suffice.

Adding a "don't know" option to the poll serves no purpose, as I was trying to see if there was any link between Epstein-Barr virus or coxsackievirus B and crimson crescents. This poll is only open to people who had a mononucleosis onset to their ME/CFS, or who were tested with the ARUP Lab neutralization test for coxsackievirus B.

 

[frederic83]

Damn, I think I have a Crimson crescent. I never checked before.
Sorry for the white tongue, but, you know...

 

[Hip]

Damn, I think I have a Crimson crescent.

Looks like a classic crimson crescent. Most ME/CFS patients have these. Somebody recently told me that when they had a period of remission from their ME/CFS, their crimson crescents also disappeared. And the crimson crescents returned again when the ME/CFS came back.

 

[frederic83]

Looks like a classic crimson crescent. Most ME/CFS patients have these.

I can't vote to your poll. I don't have CVB or EV. I'm positive for EBV but had no mononucleosis that triggered the CFS.

 

[Hip]

I can't vote to your pool. I don't have CVB or EV. I'm positive for EBV but had no mononucleosis that triggered the CFS.

Yes, I wanted to restrict the poll to mononucleosis-triggered ME/CFS, so that we could be reasonably sure that EBV was the trigger (although occasionally mononucleosis can be due to cytomegalovirus); or to patients with high titers to coxsackievirus B, as measured on the ARUP Lab neutralization test (which is the best evidence we have available to indicate a likely coxsackievirus B-triggered ME/CFS).

My original hypothesis was that only coxsackievirus B-triggered ME/CFS would involve crimson crescents; but the results of the poll seem to indicate that crimson crescents are just as likely in EBV-triggered ME/CFS.

 

[lauluce]

thanks! I'll do that, I'll try to get the best photo possible with my cell phone... for the record, once I upload, I'd like to share about my throat and mouth symptoms, that appeared exactly at the same time I experienced what I think where the first symptoms of ME.

Why not take a picture and post it, so that others can see. This is best done with a digital camera set on macro (close up), though a phone camera will also suffice.

Adding a "don't know" option to the poll serves no purpose, as I was trying to see if there was any link between Epstein-Barr virus or coxsackievirus B and crimson crescents. This poll is only open to people who had a mononucleosis onset to their ME/CFS, or who were tested with the ARUP Lab neutralization test for coxsackievirus B.

Hi @Hip, I followed your advise and took the best photos I could of my throat using my cellphone, if my tonge appears brown or yellow in a dew of the photos it's because I take cofee all the time. I'll upload 4 photos, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to upload so many, please if somebody knows otherwise tell me so I can remove them. What do you all think about the photos, do they show anything? PD: I'm positive for EBV, igg antibodies, 320 titer I think, but I'm not sure about having mono...

 

[Seven7]

think I can feel the bumps on the soft palate but I can't see them.

I had the same bumps, positive for b2. I am on equillibrant and got into remission for it. I have to be on a maintenance dose of 2 pills a day. I know mine is back or not based on the acid reflux. Is my tell tell my coasaxie is back.

 

[Hip]

What do you all think about the photos, do they show anything?

To me it looks like you do have crimson crescents.

I notice that some people's crimson crescents are located exactly on the palatoglossal arch, and other people's (like yours) are located just slightly forward from the palatoglossal arch. My crimson crescent (shown in the first post of this thread) is also located slightly forward from the palatoglossal arch.

 

[lauluce]

To me it looks like you do have crimson crescents.

I notice that some people's crimson crescents are located exactly on the palatoglossal arch, and other people's (like yours) are located just slightly forward from the palatoglossal arch. My crimson crescent (shown in the first post of this thread) is also located slightly forward from the palatoglossal arch.

Thanks for your insight! Very helpful! I don't have a second of time to write now, but let me tell you I got inflammation in what they seem to be the "lingual tonsils" and such inflamation started at the same time as the first ME symptom, along with pain at the back of the throat an canquer sores at the hard palate. Any of this sound familiar?

 

[Hip]

@lauluce
If you look at herpangina sore throat in Google Images, does that look like the sore throat or throat symptoms you initially had?

Herpangina is quite a distinct form of sore throat, and is usually caused by coxsackievirus (or enterovirus 71), though more rarely can be caused by echovirus, parechovirus 1, adenovirus, and herpes simplex virus. More info on herpangina here. So if you had a herpangina-type sore throat when your ME/CFS first started, that is suggestive of a coxsackievirus B trigger to your ME/CFS.

 

[AndyH]

How did you determine that you ME/CFS was triggered by Yersinia? That is not one of the microbes which has been associated with ME/CFS.

Yersinia is sometimes detected in people with ME. Not sure about it being a trigger.