Poll: Are you going ahead with a Booster vaccination?

[JES]

That is a good point. I am unvaccinated and am concerned about that issue. I have had Omicron and have a high level of protection. A new report form the US CDC confirms that natural immunity provides a high level of protection.

I'm afraid that's not correct. Many people are getting re-infected over and over again with this virus. People have reported being sick with both the first wave, Delta and Omicron. As soon as the next variant emerges, you will have little protection. The immune system doesn't memorize coronaviruses as well as, say, herpesviruses, which is why we get sick with cold virus variants every winter. This is also why the vaccine effect wanes over time, but same is true for natural immunity.

It has also been shown that depending on the strength of the infection and immune response, individuals might produce very different levels of antibodies. So if you had an infection with less symptoms, unfortunately there's a chance your immunity won't last as long.

 

[mermaid]

i am 70 yrs old, and lv had M.E for 45 years, now been severe M.E for over 2O years
My grandmother and my grandfather both died ,aged 31 and 34 , in the last Pandemic, the Spanish Flu.
They left behind 7 children, the oldest was 16 yrs old..my Aunt,
In one week, my Aunt had to bury both her parents together ,as they died 3 days apart. My granddad died in the backroom of the house, down stairs ,with only my greatgrandmother nursing him so that he didnt pass it on to the 7 children. But one of my 31 yr old grandmothers children caught it off him. My grandmother had just given birth to their 7th baby while her husband lay dying of the agonising Spanish Flu Virus, He was just 34 yrs old. Not only did my grandmother lose her husband 3 days earlier but one of the 7 children, the 4 year old also died of the flu. My Aunt who was 16 yrs old at the time, carried the 4 yr old all the way to the hospital, where her sister was taken off her at the gates ,as no one was allowed inside the hospital because of the Pandemic. My Aunt never saw her 4 yr old sister again, as she died there.
My dad was just 11 years old when he lost both his parents within 3 days apart (my grandparents) and his 4 yr old sister. My dad was never able to talk about this Pandemic, it was much too stressful for him to talk about it, and what the virus did ,and l only found out about it all after he died as my Aunt ,who was the 16 yr old, wrote it all down and had a book published. Its in all UK Libraries. The book was published after my Auntie died , by her 3 daughters and l went to the book launch. A Historian wrote the fore word to the book about the Historical Facts written in the book. No vaccine, so millions died. My Aunt wrote in the book that everyone in their street had someone who died and no one could even go to hospital, it was a waste of time trying, as there was no treatment or vaccine. After she wrote the book l sent for all the certificates of my grandparents and the 4 yr old. To me, its my way of keeping them near and not forgotten.
The one thing l will always remember my beloved Aunt writing was that she wished there had been some treatment (vaccine) for her parents and baby sister.

I have only just read your moving and remarkable family story @Seabreeze. Thank you for sharing it.

I am practically the same age as you, (70 this year) and I recall that many of the vaccines came in during the 1950s when I was growing up and my mother (who lived to be 97, and with a brother and a sister who lived to 99), telling me stories about how those children with whooping cough would be taken to the gas works for treatment where her brother worked, as it was believed to help in some way - before the vaccine. I don't believe I had that one as it came in a bit later in the 50s I think and luckily I didn't catch it as a child, but did have it as an adult and it gave me a significant ME relapse.

I too have a famous auntie who wrote books! She wrote about working 'below stairs' and went on to be a TV personailty and was even on Desert Island Discs! I would be very interested to know of your aunt's book. You may guess mine if you remember her as she wrote in the late 60s and 70s mostly.

With regard to the Covid vaccine....I must admit that I had a huge problem initially over whether to have it, and really did not know what to do for the best. I had not had a vaccine for years and was resistant to having them. In the end I did lots of reading and researched as bestI could.

I had already had Covid a few months before - caught via my son and his wife who were very unwell and she was nearly hospitalised but just escaped, and I curiously had it very mildly, and it was not confirmed that I even had it via the test, but I had a spell of long Covid so I am pretty sure I did have it. This alone persuaded me in the end that it was worth going for the vaccine. I have read since that research has indicated there is protection from Long Covid with it.

The only problems I have had was with side effects that went on longer than most people. 2 weeks for the first one, none for the 2nd, and then 2 weeks again for the booster (different vaccine). I also had the flu vaccine for the first time, done separately so that I could be sure if I had side effects what it was from, and had no side effects at all with that.

 

[Bronc]

I'm afraid that's not correct. Many people are getting re-infected over and over again with this virus. People have reported being sick with both the first wave, Delta and Omicron. As soon as the next variant emerges, you will have little protection. The immune system doesn't memorize coronaviruses as well as, say, herpesviruses, which is why we get sick with cold virus variants every winter. This is also why the vaccine effect wanes over time, but same is true for natural immunity.

It has also been shown that depending on the strength of the infection and immune response, individuals might produce very different levels of antibodies. So if you had an infection with less symptoms, unfortunately there's a chance your immunity won't last as long.

I am only quoting the analysis provided in a recent paper from the U.S. CDC published on January 2021. In this paper the CDC states:
"“These results demonstrate that vaccination protects against COVID-19 and related hospitalization, and that surviving a previous infection protects against a reinfection and related hospitalization.”
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm
However, this is not the only evidence showing natural immunity to provide a high level of protection against Covid-19.
In an meta analysis published in October 2021 that reviewed 9 different papers on the subject it concluded:
"While vaccinations are highly effective at protecting against infection and severe COVID-19 disease, our review demonstrates that natural immunity in COVID-recovered individuals is, at least, equivalent to the protection afforded by complete vaccination of COVID-naïve populations.''
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8627252/

As for your claim that I will have little protection against the next variant I suppose time will tell.

 

[Hip]

It's good that in the era of omicron, natural immunity now provides protection from reinfection, hospitalization and death from omicron, according to the new CDC study.

However, catching coronavirus is a risky way of acquiring this protection, even for young people.

This is because individuals have around a 1 in 100 risk of developing long COVID from a coronavirus infection. And the risk of getting long COVID is similar across all age groups, so younger people are not spared. Long COVID seems to be something that is not talked about as much in COVID risk calculations, but the chances of getting it are high in all age groups.

Thus as a strategy for immunizing a nation, going for natural immunity by allowing a wave of the virus to spread is not a great solution, because it will leave hundreds of thousands of long COVID cases in its wake, people who will possibly then have miserable long COVID for the rest of their lives.



The other issue regarding catching coronavirus infection is that unlike the vaccines, the SARS-CoV-2 virus has been shown in one study to persist in multiple bodily organs for many months, after even mild COVID infections.

The long-term health consequences of this are not known, but it is feasible that having persistent coronavirus in your body could predispose to chronic illnesses in the future, depending on how long this virus remains in the organs (many other persistent viruses have been linked to chronic diseases, as we know only too well as ME/CFS patients).

There have been lots of unexplained excess deaths during the pandemic, where people are dying, but it is not being recorded as COVID. If you look at the excess deaths for the UK and US in this graph, in the 15 to 64 age group, you can see a massive amount of excess deaths that occurred right at the beginning of the pandemic, long before the vaccines first started to be rolled out in December 2020. I wonder if that might be a consequence of having a chronic smoldering coronavirus infection in the organs.

 

[BrightCandle]

This is because individuals have around a 1 in 100 risk of developing long COVID from a coronavirus infection.

From all the papers I have been reading on this it looks to be quite a bit higher. Something like 40% of all covid sufferers end up with some amount of lingering symptom(s) for up to 12 weeks and past that its fairly similar to the 6 month and 12 month point where around 5% never recover. 80% that get long covid initially will recover, which is basically the same number as for ME/CFS from post viral condition but I think the lasting number is 5 in 100. 1.3 million persistent sufferers in the UK estimated right now, that is a lot more than 1 in 100 especially since not everyone has been infected.

 

[Hip]

From all the papers I have been reading on this it looks to be quite a bit higher. Something like 40% of all covid sufferers end up with some amount of lingering symptom(s) for up to 12 weeks and past that its fairly similar to the 6 month and 12 month point where around 5% never recover.

Yes, that's right. I should have been more specific in my post: I was thinking about the ME/CFS-like subset of long COVID patients, the people who have the symptoms of ME/CFS. This form of long COVID may well be just regular ME/CFS, but triggered by coronavirus rather than the more usual enterovirus or herpesvirus. As we know, ME/CFS is usually an incurable condition that lasts a lifetime, so this form of long COVID may be for life too.

I did a calculation a while back (copied below) showing that approximately 1 in 100 people who catch SARS-CoV-2 will get this persistent long COVID which may last a lifetime.

Spoiler: Long COVID Risk Calculation

In the UK in June 2021, there were around 400,000 cases of long COVID which had lasted for more than a year. Ref: here. This is our starting point.

There are actually a lot more long COVID cases in the UK, something like 2 million cases in June 2021, but most of those clear up after 6 months or so. It's the ones that do not clear up which will be myalgic encephalomyelitis / chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), a disease which usually lasts a whole lifetime.

So in June 2021, how many people had caught coronavirus in the UK?

Well in June 2021, the UK worldometer shows there were a cumulative total of about 5 million recorded cases of COVID. But that's just the cases which were recorded.

Now it's reckoned that for every recorded case of COVID, there are 3 coronavirus infections which go unrecorded. So to get the total number of COVID infections, you need to multiply by 4, so we get a total of 20 million people infected by COVID by June 2021.

So from those two figures, you can work out that about 2.5% of people who catch coronavirus go on to get a form of long COVID which has not cleared up after a year.

Now if we want to be conservative, in those people who have had long COVID for a year, we might assume that after an additional year, maybe half of them will return to normal health, as many with post-viral fatigue do. But we can assume that the other half now have permanent ME/CFS that will not go away.

So that leaves us with an estimate of around 1% of all SARS-CoV-2 infections leading to an ME/CFS-like long COVID which does not clear up, and may last forever.

 

[Bronc]

It's good that in the era of omicron, natural immunity now provides protection from reinfection, hospitalization and death from omicron, according to the new CDC study.

However, catching coronavirus is a risky way of acquiring this protection, even for young people.

This is because individuals have around a 1 in 100 risk of developing long COVID from a coronavirus infection. And the risk of getting long COVID is similar across all age groups, so younger people are not spared. Long COVID seems to be something that is not talked about as much in COVID risk calculations, but the chances of getting it are high in all age groups.

Thus as a strategy for immunizing a nation, going for natural immunity by allowing a wave of the virus to spread is not a great solution, because it will leave hundreds of thousands of long COVID cases in its wake, people who will possibly then have miserable long COVID for the rest of their lives.



The other issue regarding catching coronavirus infection is that unlike the vaccines, the SARS-CoV-2 virus has been shown in one study to persist in multiple bodily organs for many months, after even mild COVID infections.

The long-term health consequences of this are not known, but it is feasible that having persistent coronavirus in your body could predispose to chronic illnesses in the future, depending on how long this virus remains in the organs (many other persistent viruses have been linked to chronic diseases, as we know only too well as ME/CFS patients).

There have been lots of unexplained excess deaths during the pandemic, where people are dying, but it is not being recorded as COVID. If you look at the excess deaths for the UK and US in this graph, in the 15 to 64 age group, you can see a massive amount of excess deaths that occurred right at the beginning of the pandemic, long before the vaccines first started to be rolled out in December 2020. I wonder if that might be a consequence of having a chronic smoldering coronavirus infection in the organs.

Having had Covid I am concerned about the potential for long term consequences. Having ME after a bout of swine flu is bad enough.
I agree that no one would recommend people going out and deliberately exposing themselves to catching the virus. Regardless of what we want Omicron is infecting millions of people quite rapidly. Omicron in the opinion of many scientists is driving us towards 'herd immunity' due to its being exceptionally contagious.

As for Long Covid I agree this is something of great concern. I have been following the work of FLCCC member Dr.Keith Berkowitz who has been treating Long Covid patients with a combination therapy that includes Ivermectin, steriods and other medications.
https://odysee.com/@FrontlineCovid19CriticalCareAlliance:c/FLCCC-WEBINAR-101321_FINAL-(1):0

 

[Hip]

Omicron in the opinion of many scientists is driving us towards 'herd immunity' due to its being exceptionally contagious.

Yes, there is speculation that omicron might end the pandemic, as it's spreading so fast due to its higher contagiousness, resulting in lots of natural immunity. It would great if that turns out to be the case.

Though two issues could dash those hopes of an end to the pandemic: one is that this natural immunity may not not last long, so people may be reinfected with omicron. Another is that when the next variant comes along, that could partially evade the natural immunity bestowed by omicron infection.

Although viruses tend to evolve into more benign forms in crowded places like modern urban environments, as it is in the virus's interest to become less severe. So the next variant hopefully will be even milder than omicron, yet might be more contagious still, thus causing a new wave of natural immunity.

In viral evolution, viruses want to survive and propagate, and if they kill or severely incapacity people, those people will not be out and about spreading the virus, so virus shoots itself in the foot if it is too severe. Whereas if a virus causes a very mild infection, the infected individual remains healthy enough to continue socializing and spreading the virus. That's why in crowded populations, viruses evolve to become more benign. I learnt this from reading the works of Prof Paul Ewald, who has studied viral evolution.

 

[Seabreeze]

I'm afraid that's not correct. Many people are getting re-infected over and over again with this virus. People have reported being sick with both the first wave, Delta and Omicron. As soon as the next variant emerges, you will have little protection. The immune system doesn't memorize coronaviruses as well as, say, herpesviruses, which is why we get sick with cold virus variants every winter. This is also why the vaccine effect wanes over time, but same is true for natural immunity. interent site.

It has also been shown that depending on the strength of the infection and immune response, individuals might produce very different levels of antibodies. So if you had an infection with less symptoms, unfortunately there's a chance your immunity won't last as long.

yes, that's how lv read it to mean on the Wedmed internet site and other Virology sites.
It says that our immune system weakens over time to certain different virus/germs which included Covid 19. The natural immunity from our bodies made from antibodies, if you catch covid ( will recognizes that strain of covid virus) only lasts about 3 months!!
so you would have had to caught the strain of the variant for your anti-bodies to fight that variant. So when a new variant comes along, your immune system wont recognize it.
So without a vaccine, you dont automatically get protection,(which l think a lot of unvaccinated people believe), The immune system will only produce antibodies to fight a virus including Covid if you have previously been infected and that also will weaken after about 3 months..so its not a case of 'always protected' against Covid. Our antibodies to fight Covid, whether natural from previous infection or from the vaccines, will only last for about 3 months. So, if lv understood this correctly from wedmed, because l had Delta plus my immune system will not make antibodies for any new Covid variant's' ie Omicron, as my body wont recognize the germ.' Because l had the booster my anti bodies will kick help my immune system try to fight any new germs. It wont stop me catching it, it will just help my immune system fight it.
Thats why my next door neighbour had caught Covid 3 times. !! The first was Delta (and was really ill, before she was vaccinated, ) then caught Delta again months later after she had the vaccine, (but less severe )and now caught the Omicron as her antibodies didnt recognize that new variant.
So if you believe you cant catch Covid because you have had Omicron, that not correct. You are only protected from the Omicron variant, and your antibodies will weaken to make those antibodies over a short time.
l believe the Delta and the Delta plus is weakening in spreading , which must be due to the vaccines and is being replaced by Omicron , which we dont have vaccine for yet ,
After this variant Omicron , it does'nt mean a new variant wont come along. ;(
So in that case, im glad l went ahead and had the vaccines to help my body make as many anti bodies along with my natural anti-bodes, because iv already had Delta plus,
l want my immune system to target Covid germs and if the vaccines will help then ll go ahead and have them.

*Please correct me if l have read the Wedcam on viruses and Covid viruses incorrectly.

 

[drob31]

I hate to say it, but I no longer trust any "official" numbers.

 

[hapl808]

In viral evolution, viruses want to survive and propagate, and if they kill or severely incapacity people, those people will not be out and about spreading the virus, so virus shoots itself in the foot if it is too severe. Whereas if a virus causes a very mild infection, the infected individual remains healthy enough to continue socializing and spreading the virus. That's why in crowded populations, viruses evolve to become more benign. I learnt this from reading the works of Prof Paul Ewald, who has studied viral evolution.

The only issue is that COVID generally kills people long after the infectious phase is over. Therefore it makes no difference for viral selection if the virus is deadly at that point or not; everyone who is going to be infected by that iteration already has been.

The ideal virus is one that is asymptomatic during the contagious phase. After that, it could cause no symptoms or deaths. It shouldn't really affect selection.

So I've seen the 'viruses get milder' refuted in this case for those reasons. Viruses get random mutations with no regard for severity - which ones survive and thrive depend on a bunch of factors, and 'sometimes' less severe ones will do better.

 

[Hip]

The only issue is that COVID generally kills people long after the infectious phase is over. Therefore it makes no difference for viral selection if the virus is deadly at that point or not; everyone who is going to be infected by that iteration already has been.

Well illness severity at the prodrome phase of the illness is related to the severity at the later stage. I can't think of many viruses which are really mild during the prodrome, but then suddenly switch to becoming severe and fatal weeks or months later. So if the virus evolves to be milder during the prodrome, the chances are it will also be milder later in the illness.

So I've seen the 'viruses get milder' refuted in this case for those reasons. Viruses get random mutations with no regard for severity - which ones survive and thrive depend on a bunch of factors, and 'sometimes' less severe ones will do better.

That's right. But note that there is only selection pressure for viruses to get milder in densely populated areas, such as modern urban environments. This pressure does not exist in sparsely populated regions.

This is because in densely populated areas, there are so many opportunities for the virus to spread by social contact, that it greatly benefits viral spread if the virus does not incapacitate its host.

On the other hand, in sparsely populated areas, with very few opportunities for the virus to jump to another person by social contact, there is little advantage in keeping the host relatively capable, and instead viral evolution to nastier and more virulent forms may offer better transmission advantages for the virus.

For example, if the virus can cause lots of nasty blisters or pustules across the body of the host, containing lots of virus-filled fluid, when that person or animal dies, it creates a carcass absolutely laden with virus.

If that animal dies by a stream, the virus from the pustules may be washed downstream to infect other animals. If that virus-laden carcass is eaten by other animals, that can pass on the virus. When there are very few opportunities to transmit by social contact, the virus may need to create severe fatal illness in order to survive.

I first read about this theory in a book by evolutionary biologist Prof Paul Ewald (who also proposes that most chronic diseases of currently unknown etiology are likely cause by chronic pathogen infections).

 

[HRManager]

Already did. I had a lot of side effects with the Moderna vaccine so I got the Pfizer for my booster. Hardly any side effects! A headache for a day and sore spot on my arm.

Any future recommended boosters will also be Pfizer for me.

 

[Woof!]

Had two Moderna doses in August. Got an Moderna booster last week. Sore arm for a day and a half. That's it.

 

[Howard]

I just received the Pfizer vaccine booster this past Friday. The results have been rather unfortunate, especially in comparison to the previous first and second doses where I had no side effects whatsoever.

The day following the booster I had a painful and long-lasting headache… which in and of itself, is no big deal. I knew it wouldn't last forever.

However, the temporarily devastating side effect was that my intestines stopped functioning again. It's the same thing that happened when I was hospitalized with Covid six weeks ago, but not as severe. In the hospitalized episode I could not feed for nearly two weeks. IV fluids with dextrose only.

So basically I had to cease utilizing my feeding tube over the weekend, minus a slow trickle of hydrating water. The nausea was tolerable, as I wasn't vomiting (as I'd done during the previous episode).

After returning from the hospital yesterday (indirectly related reasons), I was again able to resume my formula feeding and hydration ritual.

Having had my digestive system completely shut down the first time with covid, and then nearly so with the booster, my medical advocate believes this is an indication that I'm suffering from some type of autoimmune illness.

I don't understand all the moving parts as she does, but I'm going to introduce this to my neurologist today and see what he has to say.

Note: I was in the hospital Monday after having had an allergic reaction to eating four Skittles candies… throat constriction, swollen tongue, numb lips, high BP. Initially assumed it was a latent booster shot reaction.

I also had a reaction one month ago after eating just one Skittle candy, but chalked it up as being coincidental. I never had problems with these candies prior to Covid, usually having one or two pieces per week as low blood sugar warranted. It's seeming as though artificial dyes and colors are the problem here. Autoimmune? I don't know. I don't really understand these things. My temperamental body always seems to find more and additional things to react to.

I am feeling better this morning, and I do not regret having the booster. I sure as heck do not want to go through another severe Covid experience.


H

 

[BrightCandle]

Note: I was in the hospital Monday after having had an allergic reaction to eating four Skittles candies… throat constriction, swollen tongue, numb lips, high BP. Initially assumed it was a latent booster shot reaction.

I also had a reaction one month ago after eating just one Skittle candy, but chalked it up as being coincidental. I never had problems with these candies prior to Covid, usually having one or two pieces per week as low blood sugar warranted. It's seeming as though artificial dyes and colors are the problem here. Autoimmune? I don't know. I don't really understand these things. My temperamental body always seems to find more and additional things to react to.

You are having a rough time at the moment, this all sounds awful and I am so sorry.

I remembered that with Skittles that Mars tended to handle its candies together and checked and its also possibly nut allergies too, they are packed in a factory containing nuts.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Skittles-Fruit-Candies-55g-Pack/dp/B000SOTOTG/ref=sr_1_1_sspa

Packed in a factory which handles nuts.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Note: I was in the hospital Monday after having had an allergic reaction to eating four Skittles candies… throat constriction, swollen tongue, numb lips, high BP. Initially assumed it was a latent booster shot reaction.

I also had a reaction one month ago after eating just one Skittle candy, but chalked it up as being coincidental. I never had problems with these candies prior to Covid, usually having one or two pieces per week as low blood sugar warranted. It's seeming as though artificial dyes and colors are the problem here. Autoimmune? I don't know.

@Howard I am so sorry this happened to you and wanted to share this with you in case it is helpful. In early 2015 I had my first ever episode of anaphylaxis to a candy with a yellow dye in it (it wasn't Skittles but another candy w/dye). It turned out that the dye that caused my anaphylaxis was called "Yellow #5" which is also known as "Tartrazine".

It progressed, and by May 2015, I ended up having severe allergic reactions & anaphylaxis to all food but water (and ended up in the hospital for a week on IV Benadryl). I was formally diagnosed with MCAS and ultimately I ended up with three separate autoimmune diagnoses plus the MCAS (and there is still debate if MCAS is an autoimmune disease). But however MCAS is ultimately classified, it pushes the immune system into these insane allergic reactions.

I am in remission now from everything but was told to avoid "Yellow 5" Dye (also known as "Tartrazine") for the rest of my life. So to this day, all of my medications are dye-free (and two of them are compounded b/c I can't get them at a regular pharmacy like my other meds). It requires a lot of vigilance but all of my food & meds are dye-free (and I am also allergic to contrast dyes).

 

[Annie59]

I was wondering how many here are going ahead with the booster vaccination currently being recommended for those in high risk groups. It feels to me at the moment here in the UK that there is tremendous pressure for us to go ahead.

As someone who doesn't appear to have done well post the second vaccine I am holding back but getting daily texts from my surgery to book an appointment as I am 73. Having paid for a private test recently I know I still have a good level of antibodies so I am happy to wait.

Obviously I don't want this to be political in any shape or form but I have read of several fellow sufferers not doing very well after vaccination with an aggrevation of their symptoms. I guess there will be a big variation here but thought it might be useful to get a general idea of how people here are feeling.

Thanks

I am having the booster. I have had a kick up in my symptoms for about 3 months after the other 2 vaccinations. But I have a dread fear of getting long COVID on top of CFS . DFoes not bear thinking about,

 

[Diwi9]

I had my 4th dose of Moderna today. The state of New Mexico recognized me as immunocompromised and reach out to me to schedule a 4th.