Please help with KCl and silymarin interaction (B1 defficiency?)

[Gondwanaland]

@Freddd or anyone who experienced it

This link describes symptoms of interaction of KCl and silymarin:
http://www.ehealthme.com/drug-interactions/potassium-chloride-and-silymarin

I am having them all.

I only used KCl to cook from March 22-25
I took homeopathy Causticum from March 24-28
On March 23 I took 150mg of silymarin
I was drinking too much coconut water all along. I have been ingesting high potassium foods all the time.

Yesterday at the ER my electrolyte blood levels were
Na 144 (136-145)
K 5,1 (3,5-5,1)
I started taking 100mg Mg glycinate on March 29 - it helped with anxiety and breath shortness. But it clearly is the wrong move since my potassium is too high. But I can't sleep without magnesium, nor eat due to lack of saliva.

I am considering starting a B complex to use up the potassium:

B1 Thiamine HCl 20 mg
B2 Riboflavin 15 mg
B3 Nicotinamide 30 mg
B5 Calcium pantothenate 30 mg
B6 Pirydoxine HCl 20 mg

I am losing weight too fast
I have discoloration at extremities
Weakness
Dry tongue
Anxiety
Breath shortness

It seems that the gel cap from the Gamma E complex makes me lose B1 in the urine.
I stopped mB12 on March 21
I stopped mFolate on March 17

I will be thankful for suggestions.

izzy

 

[ahmo]

@Gondwanaland Hi Izzy. Do you have any experience of sulfur intolerance? Silymarin is high thiol/sulfur.
If you've only been using KCl for cooking, it's hard to imagine you've been getting too much of it.

As Freddd advised, I lowered my B complex because it pushes the need for more K+. This dramatically reduced my K+ needs.

What are you eating?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi @ahmo
I got the chills and extremely cold extremities specifically from the use of KCl just as described in the link above. I thought it was from the added iodide, but apparently it isn't.

I am on a high potassium diet with lots of meat and always go slow on sulfur, eating eggs every now and then with the only noticeable side effect of hair fall - a few days ago when I finally realised the eggs were chelating my copper out I stopped eating them. I think you are right though.

After the low potassium symptoms subsided due to high potassium foods intake, a new set of symptoms set in. I attribute them to hidden EDTA in the coconut water I was drinking. Then it all got worse when I took silymarin while eating some high sulfur vegetables.
I haven't taken a B-complex yet and am trying to determine what dosage would be safe for me.

 

[ahmo]

@Gondwanaland I don't know what your underlying condition is. but many of us need activated versions of B2, B6: r5p and p5p.

It looks to me like there's something else underlying your strong reaction, but I can't see it. How much salt do you use, and what sort? Are you hypothyroid? sounds unlikely, if you're losing weight. What sent you to the ER? Maybe the homeopathic you took is pushing something. Are you working w/ a homeopath? BTW, Freddd hasn't posted for at least a month.

 

[South]

Gondwanaland, can you clarify some things:
you said you are having "all" of the symptoms listed on the site you linked - so that means including:
destruction of heart tissue resulting from obstruction of the blood supply to the heart muscle, the presence or formation of gallstones in the gallbladder or bile ducts, Blood Glucose Increased, Chest Pain, Anaemia, Skin Discolouration,
Chills, and "Fall" (which on that site means falling down). All of these are on the link you provided.
Did you have the destruction of heart tissue, the gallstones, the blood glucose, and the anaemia tested? Or are you guessing on those?

And when you said "it seems that the gamma E is making me lose B1 in the urine", did you do a urine test?

With changing so many variables with your supplements/food all at once, it sounds like you are trying to leap in logic to which ones may be causing the symptoms you feel (and we are unclear which symptoms those are though). And you also may be making the puzzle harder for yourself by making assumptions about other bad symptoms happening without testing to see if they really are happening.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland I don't know what your underlying condition is. but many of us need activated versions of B2, B6: r5p and p5p.

It looks to me like there's something else underlying your strong reaction, but I can't see it. How much salt do you use, and what sort? Are you hypothyroid? sounds unlikely, if you're losing weight. What sent you to the ER? Maybe the homeopathic you took is pushing something. Are you working w/ a homeopath? BTW, Freddd hasn't posted for at least a month.

Hi ahmo, thanks for helping me to track this down.
I salt my food with unrefined sea salt (Guérande sea salt). I don't know how much, I use it to taste. I am not hypothyroid, but I have high anti-TG antibodies (895) and several female relatives who are hypo.

I went to the ER on Saturday morning. On Friday night we went out for a steak filled with cheese and ham, I did not eat the filling, but the steak was too salty. I came back home and drank more coconut water (I will never take packaged coconut water again). I could not sleep due to breath shortness, anxiety and chest pain. At the ER they only tested my Na, K, creatinine and urea. They measured my temp and BP. Everything was considered normal.

THey wanted to do a chest x-ray but I refused and came back home. Then started taking Mg glycinate which helped but I stopped b/c I am not sure if it is the right thing to do.
Last night I interrupted my progesterone cream since I am sure it contains EDTA (will confirm this with the compounding pharmacy).

My homeopath doesn't see the whole picture and doesn't work with supplements. He prescribed me causticum based on my complaints of dry mouth, frequent urination, constipation.

Gondwanaland, can you clarify some things:
you said you are having "all" of the symptoms listed on the site you linked - so that means including:
destruction of heart tissue resulting from obstruction of the blood supply to the heart muscle, the presence or formation of gallstones in the gallbladder or bile ducts, Blood Glucose Increased, Chest Pain, Anaemia, Skin Discolouration, Chills, and "Fall" (which on that site means falling down). All of these are on the link you provided.
Did you have the destruction of heart tissue, the gallstones, the blood glucose, and the anaemia tested? Or are you guessing on those?

Didn't have those tested. I had heart/chest pain, constipation is settling in again now that the silimarin effect is fading out, skin discoloration at feet and hands, chills, muscle weakness not to the point of falling (yet), fatigue and have been losing weight quickly so some anemia is likely.

And when you said "it seems that the gamma E is making me lose B1 in the urine", did you do a urine test?

I don't think this test is available where I live. But my urine smells very strange after taking gel caps (gelatine wastes B1).

With changing so many variables with your supplements/food all at once, it sounds like you are trying to leap in logic to which ones may be causing the symptoms you feel (and we are unclear which symptoms those are though). And you also may be making the puzzle harder for yourself by making assumptions about other bad symptoms happening without testing to see if they really are happening.

I know I am making things harder in trying to fix them. I really don't know how to manage the situation.

Right now I am having extremely dry tongue and it is made worse by drinking water. Then I am not able to eat or even speak due to lack of saliva. I am going to see a hematologist later today and I don't know if he will be able to help me.

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

@ahmo
I guess I will try strict exclusion of high thiol foods as per Living Network and take glutamine and glycine. I assume there will be no side effects to these aminoacids?

izzy

 

[ahmo]

Hi izzy. Hope your hematologist offers some help. I can't forsee any side effects to the aminos. HOWEVER, glycine, among other properties, does detoxify, so could push something. I initially started it for sleep. And Amy Yasko believes glutamine can lead to glutamate, but I've seen many disagreements w/ her understanding. I've never had problems w/ either, but this is your body we're talking about.

You went to the homeopath for

dry mouth, frequent urination, constipation

, these sound like dehydration. You're losing weight, drinking water makes things worse....There's something weird here. Are you still taking the homeopathic? Sometimes these can produce the same response as you're trying to counteract. I can only suggest swishing some water w/ bicarb to see if it helps the dry mouth, But that's not the cause. Sorry, I don't have anything useful to add.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi @ahmo, thanks again for the reply.

This was my 1st time at this hematologist. He is young and also a researcher. He said I must supplement mB12 for life since everyone that has Hasimoto's has low stomach acidity (how come the endochrinologists and gastroenterologists know nothig about it!?). He said I should only supplement mB9 in case I have a genetic problem with that.

I know that homeopathics can aggravate symptoms at first, and I think that is precisely what happened. In the first 2-3 days it was a honeymoon - all symptoms gone - but it soon turned to a nightmare. The timing was bad. I stopped it.

I am trying to decide if I take glutamine only, or with glycine, or neither. I read that glycine antagonizes neurotransmitters. I think I need the glutamine to help healing my gut. I already have Molybdenum, glutamine and glycine at home.

I am feeling so much better today, now that I am 100% avoiding thiols. Problem is that my liver (or gall bladder?) now is hurting. But at least I am able to eat and drink water again.

I have been alternating between two different spring waters - one very low in sodium and another one a little higher. It has helped and I am feeling I am finally getting some hydration again. That is a good tip about swishing water with bicarb. I didn't know about it. Will try it, thanks

 

[ahmo]

Wow, you've found a good doc! Congratulations! I never heard the Hashimoto's connection w/ B12. What's Mb9? Glad you're feeling better.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks! I forgot to add that I asked him about testing for Lyme and he gave me a blood test requisition for Borrelia antibodies. I don't think CD57 is available in my country yet.

I forgot to ask him about it, but I think the B12 connection should be true for all autoimmune conditions.

mB9 = methylfolate (at least in my head LOL)

izzy

 

[Hip]

The study quoted below indicate that silymarin (from milk thistle) acts as a potassium-sparing diuretic. Diuretics cause loss of electrolytes (like sodium and chloride) into the urine, but potassium-sparing diuretics cause the loss of electrolytes except potassium.

So if you were taking high doses of potassium from KCl, and excreting all electrolytes except potassium as a result of taking milk thistle, this may have caused an imbalance of your electrolytes, leaving too much potassium in the blood (hyperkalemia).

Note that "low sodium salt" sold in shops usually contains around 66% KCl and 33% NaCl. If you are cooking with only KCl, you may be asking for trouble, as this might lead to high potassium levels.

Effects of naringenin and silymarin on urinary excretion of water and electrolytes in rats

Abstract
The effects of two flavonoid derivatives, naringenin and silymarin on urinary excretion of water and electrolytes were investigated in isotonic saline loaded rats. Both compounds, especially naringenin, showed a moderate diuretic activity, in comparison with furosemide, increasing significantly the renal loss of sodium, chloride and potassium. With respect to silymarin, although urinary excretion was significantly lower, it caused a marked decrease in potassium excretion. These results indicate that naringenin has a diuretic behaviour similar to moderate-efficiency diuretic agents and silymarin to potassium-sparing diuretics.

 

[ahmo]

@Hip Excellent. You've solved the mystery

 

[Gondwanaland]

Wow @Hip, thank you so much for the help!

I will try to put together all the variables involved. It can save my marriage if I am not thiol intolerant LOL

Unfortunately I do not have access to the full study, but I assume that the silymarine spares potassium by raising ammonia.

On March 14 I upped my folate to 2 quarters of a tablet (400mcg)

On March 15 by mistake I took 2 halves (800mcg) of folate

On March 16 I started feeling a tight chest, breathing difficulty - put ginger on my pumpkin soup with meat and felt greatly relieved, so I started taking ginger tea daily

On March 17 I decided not to take folate anymore and started a high potassium diet wich included some foods high in folic acid and high in thiols

On March 19 I went to a yoga session and got cramps in the first 5 minutes and then could not go on. The cramps did not subsided after a couple of days

On March 21 I stopped the mB12

On March 22 I started spraying Mg glycinate on my legs and bought KCl 99% (iodized) to salt my food until March 25

On March 22 I started drinking almost 1 liter per day of packaged coconut water (I think it contains hidden sulfites) until March 29

On March 24 I started taking the homeopathy Causticum until March 28

On March 26 I took 500mg of no flush niacin and 150mg silymarin and then everything got so much worse

On March 28 I had a steak for dinner (could barely swallow a few pieces due to dry mouth) which sent me to the ER a few hours later with high anxiety, discoloration of extremities, chest pain, breathing difficulty, extreme weakness...

On March 29 after coming back home from the ER I stared taking Mg glycinate orally, which helped a lot and I could sleep again. I wonder which one helped most - the Mg or the glycinate. I think the glycinate helped reducing ammonia...

On March 30 guess what was for lunch... more meat - again, I could barely swallow it, but since I was taking Mg glycinate, during the afternoon all symptoms started clearing - I think that is when the silymarin was finally cleared out of my system. On this day I also interruped the Gamma E, the progesterone cream and did not need anymore Mg caps other than one in the morning and one at lunch and discontinued it too.

All along I have been using my progesterone cream (which probably contains EDTA) and taking my Gamma E cap (vit E maintains K high in blood and the gelatin of the cap destroys B1)

Since March 31 I am on ZERO supplements.

Now I wonder if or when I should follow my nutritionist instructions and take 2.5g L-glutamine for 10 days (I also ordered 1.5g of glycine and liquid Molybdenum for safety) and then start the low dose B complex.

If anyone can conclude anything else from this whole craziness and give me some more input on what to do next I would be very thankful!

crazy izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have been reasearching around the forums here and it just made my head spin.

I started eating almonds + almond milk daily to increase my copper levels, but I read it can increase cyanide (I aready had trouble with cyB12 back in January) + aflatoxins

I started reading the topic http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/poisoning-the-mitochondria.27790/ and it seems that I was hit hard by sulfites. Plus I have been eating apples and adding malonate to my system. For a few months now I haven't tolerated milk or yogurt due to a sort of breathing difficulty. I found this site very anxiety-triggering
http://www.erichamel.com/documents/doc_CleanupYourDiet.html
I hope I don't have to follow all those recommendations

Also, supplementing Mo will lower Cu.

I hope someone can shed some light on this labyrinth for me...

izzy

 

[Hip]

Unfortunately I do not have access to the full study, but I assume that the silymarine spares potassium by raising ammonia.

I don't have access either, but often just reading the study abstract is good enough.

The mechanism of action of a potassium-sparing diuretic is described here. I don't think this is related to ammonia.

@Hip Excellent. You've solved the mystery

Well, me and my good friend Professor Google solved the mystery! I just searched for potassium silymarin, and that study was one of the first things that came up.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland Hi Izzy. Do you have any experience of sulfur intolerance? Silymarin is high thiol/sulfur.

Do you think it could be histamine intolerance instead? Silymarin raises histamine.

 

[Hip]

Salicylate sensitivity is another thing to consider:

Milk thistle is very high in salicylates, and I often get an urticaria rash (hives) on my skin if I take large doses of milk thistle for several days.

Salicylates are known to cause an urticaria rash. Aspirin is a salicylate drug, and I also get urticaria rashes if I take aspirin for several days. So I would appear to have some mild salicylate sensitivity.

The symptoms of salicylate sensitivity are given here.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks for the reply, @Hip. I have no rashes. I found the comments on this page very useful:
http://paleohacks.com/questions/111707/histamine-intolerance-what-do-you-eat.html
(search for keywords copper and methylation)

Dou you think the symptoms would subside if I restart the mB12?

I think I will start the L-glutamine 2.5g and order the B complex

izzy

 

[Hip]

Dou you think the symptoms would subside if I restart the mB12?

High dose B12 methylcobalamin tends to use up potassium, so this may help reduce your potassium levels, if that is the problem.

I assume that you have stopped using the KCl in your cooking, for the moment.

The symptoms of histamine intolerance are given here. Do you have these symptoms?