Please help with KCl and silymarin interaction (B1 defficiency?)

[Gondwanaland]

@Hip, today I ate blueberries and felt great, then ate a banana 2 hours ago and am still sweating (flushed face), with the heart racing and with the need to clear my throat frequently - I feel a bit of mucus in the chest.

Edit: I am not using it anymore and do not intend to use the KCl again...
High potaassium = high histamine?
I intend to restart the mB12 low (250 or 500mcg)

 

[ahmo]

hi Izzy. Almonds shouldn't be eaten raw. Best way to eat seeds/nuts is pre-soak in salted water to leach out...don't know which class of thing is removed, sorry...then dry/dehydrate or turn into, eg almond milk. You might be able to tell more if you're reacting by eliminating all thiols, I can't tell if you've done this or just low thiol.

First time I've heard of limiting malonates. Even the layout of the page is anxiety-provoking! So many of these classes of ingredients overlap, like salicylates, histamines, etc. I have a new favorite site for histamine info:

http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044 The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance


And here's an excellent diagram re histamines, I only found this yesterday:

http://www.histamine-intolerance.in...-Mast-Cell-Activation-cascade-of-symptoms.pdf

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you so much, @ahmo , you have been very helpful I always soak my almonds overnight and make milk in the morning, but I usually eat the raw almond "cheese" with some fruit. Should the "cheese" be thrown away?

I have filled my nutritionist's prescription and ordered probiotics including L. casei. One of the links you provided lists L. casei as beneficial and the other one as detrimental for this case... I think when casei is taken with other strains it is beneficial, isn't it? In my fridge I have a combo of L. casei, B. bifidum and L. rhamnosus.

I see that a lot of topics on high histamine and methylation have been started around here, some with very few replies or no replies at all, so I will not start another topic on that... But I did find that someone posted this really helpful link: http://mthfr.net/overmethylation-and-undermethylation-case-study/2012/06/27/

It helped me to see how I turned hyperthyroid and have been quickly losing weight... Do the niacin and the niacinamide work in the same way regarding methylathion?

I was so desperate yesterday that I went for a vegatest for foods, parasites and vitamins (couldn't afford it right now) , and soon I will do the one for neurotransmitters, since I am not very good at self testing.

I think my problem actually is histadelia - confirmed by the vega test (plus liver/gall baldder pain, and SIBO has also been triggered by high histamine - is a pulsing stomach SIBO or leaky gut or both?)

I am having increasing problems with concentration, reading and decision making. So I don't know what to do. Chamomile tea has been helping a little.

My current plan is to take

- 2.5g Glutamine for 10 days (if it doesn't go very well I also have 10 daily doses of 1.5 glycine to go with that)

- and then start probiotics

- start a low-dose B complex shortly after starting the glutamine

- add mB12 (and folate?) back in at low doses a few days after starting the B complex - I see that Caledonia suggests really low doses. Back in January I started mB12 at 500mcg (not so low I know) and it was going smoothly until I overdosed the folate by mistake. So my plan is to restart it at 250 or 125 mcg (not so easy to cut the tablets this small - unless the compounding phamacy can make 100 mcg tablets...)

I would be very thankful if anyone would chime in and give me some suggestions. I never had high histamine issues before, so I am kinda lost here.

I apologize for making so many questions... I started taking mB12 before I knew about methylation... I just wonder if I should have ever added mfolate...

izzy

 

[ahmo]

Hi Izzy. I don't know any more about the almond 'cheese'. Almonds are high oxalates, maybe it's best not to overdo. So much of what I've known, understood, learned is just a mish-mash now, I can't totally discriminate which warnings belong to my past or current understanding. I'll see if I find more info about this.

SIBO/histamines: I think SIBO might also produce histamines. The pain in your gut could be either/both. The GAPS diet eliminates not only gluten, but all starches until the gut settles down. Starches feed the bacteria, and also pass thru the leaky gut wall. I've been doing the coffee enemas to eliminate SIBO. It's been about 3 months since I started 4 days on/2 days off CE. I'm now taking a week long holiday from it. Since my last round I've tested - for, and not needed any of my anti-histamine supps. This is a first! I think this must be from a lower bacteria count.

There's also another forum, Mast Cell Disorders. I don't know how histamine and mast cell problems overlap, whether one always implies the other. Maybe I already linked this vid by mast cell expert Dr. Theoharides. It explains a mechanism in the brain thatleads to brain fog, neurological problems. He suggests that autism, and presumably some of the other things called 'adult autism', like MS, ALS, Parkinsons...are due to histamine release in the brain. Very eye-opening. This links to ATP production in the brain, which is what the L-Carnitine Fumarate in Freddd's Deadlock Quartet addresses. I think your plan for adding things in sounds good.

Also, here's something most people don't think about, and don't want to! EMFs. If you have wifi, mobile phones, portable phones...they should not be in your sleeing area. Klinghardt recommends taking out fuses at night. I don't do that, but in Aus we can switch off the power socket. I now sleep on a grounding sheet, use a grounding mat under my hands/arms at my desk, finally switched from compact fluro bulb to LED in my reading lamp. Klinghardt did an experiment w/ some molds. they LOVE radiation, grew heaps of toxic cells, while the dish next to it, covered by a Faraday cage, did not grow. He said it usually takes 3 years before the parents of his autistic kids listen to him and deal with this critical issue. Bye for now, ahmo

‪‘Brain Allergy’ and ASD - T. Theoharides, MD, PhD‬
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9QbZp3WcC1Q

‪Mastocytosis with Theoharis C. Theoharides, MS, PhD, MD, FAA‬
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CplxXGpFeKQ

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you so much for this info, @ahmo

Glad to hear you are doing better on coffee enemas. I read that coffee enemas deplete potassium, but I am sure you have been supplementing enough...

I think my pulsing stomach is leaky gut, with associated complications...

I am amazed at the effect histamines have on the body (and mind). It is a first time for me. At least now I know what my husband has been through lately (asthma sufferer). He is on antidepressants for having high histamine... It took me 2 years to understand what happened to him.

DH has neuropathies and went thru surgery for decompression of ulnar nerve in 2011. He has also been diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis. Last year his other arm was hurting really bad and he was afraid he would have to go thru surgery again. Then we stopped eating gluten and all his ulnar nerve pain went away... I believe he would not have needed surgery in the first place if we were off gluten back then...

About his AS, he always have back pain... Then a few weeks ago he drank Red Bull (nasty stuff I know) for the 1st time in his life. The following day he woke up completely pain free for the 1st time in several years... So I am going first with supplementations to test how it goes... Soon he will start it too... I am sure he is an undermethylator like me.

I am aware of EMF and very sensitive to it (DH is a little less sensitive). My house is a safe harbour now. I do not have grounding accessories yet, but we got rid of the main EMF generators (wi-fi and cordless phone) and it made a big difference. I believe the underlying issue is electrolyte imbalance.

izzy

 

[ahmo]

Hi Izzy. V interesting to read of the ulnar surgery. I had Dupuytrens Contractures in both hands. It had been slowly increasing. After 12 years, I visited a reheumatologist, and a hand surgeon. The only remedy on offer was significant hand surgery, w/ very long rehab, and no certainty that this would not return. This was probably my first use of internet search, 2002, and I found far simpler non-surgical interventions, involving using a needle and anesthetic to cut through the fibrous bits, without slicing into the hand. I flew to Switzerland for this procedure. It was effective, but there was a lot of remaining holding. I used to wear splints in my sleep to keep my hands from contracting.
When I was 2 weeks into GAPS diet, the residual holdings in my hands melted. It was actually sooner than this, but I was unwilling to believe it was true. So, this, too, was a gluten problem. Unbelievable!

I think AS was also one of Freddd's problems prior to his successful methylation protocol.

I always supplement adequate K+. per self-testing. Thankfully, now that I'm on top of this issue I haven't had a crisis for the longest time in recent history. Yay! No more lurching from crisis to crisis! cheers, ahmo

 

[Gondwanaland]

Salicylate sensitivity is another thing to consider:

Milk thistle is very high in salicylates, and I often get an urticaria rash (hives) on my skin if I take large doses of milk thistle for several days.

Salicylates are known to cause an urticaria rash. Aspirin is a salicylate drug, and I also get urticaria rashes if I take aspirin for several days. So I would appear to have some mild salicylate sensitivity.

The symptoms of salicylate sensitivity are given here.

Yes, now I can see how I my salicylate sensitivity became exacerbated... I am sure that my B1 defficiency has also been exacerbated by starting potassium, but now I finally have a B complex on board.

When I took silymarin I was overdosing with coconut water... Then later started drinking almond milk... Now I can't tolerate any of them... What clued me into that is the fact that I became intolerant to high nitrate foods (lettuce, beets, celery, all herbal teas) while trying a sulfur exclusion. Then I started a rose hip essential oil that aggravated my situation. THEN I found out the salicylate link.

One month ago I was able to tolerate mB12 again and am taking 50mcg daily now (orally, not sublingually). Perhaps will increase to 75mcg this coming week since it helps a great deal with high volume urination (I am dehydrated).

One month ago I also found out I tolerate Mg oxide well (glycinate and citrate produce pituitary electricity) and am taking 300mg MgO before bed.

Now I would like to know what is making my throat swell and then I spend hours with maddening shallow breathing:

• low serotonin? (I have started citalopram 5 days ago, I hope it will kick in soon)
• high ammonia?
• high ONOO?
• high H2S? (I don't tolerate Epsom salts)
• all of them?
• something else?

Yesterday I tried 100mg of C-salts and got a swollen throat and could not breathe well the whole day. It was the 1st vit C that didn't produce uncomfortable electricity in my pituitary, but then I couldn't breathe. So I am still unable to supplement vit C.

Na bicarbonate footbaths before bed help me to sleep. Sublingual royal jelly sometimes help (not always). When I go to bed my throat unswells, then I sleep for like 3 hours, wake up to urinate and stay awake for 3 hours, then fall asleep and then about half hour later it's time to wake up.

My next step will be to try new probiotics (they will be delivered tomorrow), avoiding histaminogenic strains. What puzzles me is that I do not get rashes/hives nor flu symptoms.

I would be thankful for further suggestions.

 

[Freddd]

Yes, now I can see how I my salicylate sensitivity became exacerbated... I am sure that my B1 defficiency has also been exacerbated by starting potassium, but now I finally have a B complex on board.

When I took silymarin I was overdosing with coconut water... Then later started drinking almond milk... Now I can't tolerate any of them... What clued me into that is the fact that I became intolerant to high nitrate foods (lettuce, beets, celery, all herbal teas) while trying a sulfur exclusion. Then I started a rose hip essential oil that aggravated my situation. THEN I found out the salicylate link.

One month ago I was able to tolerate mB12 again and am taking 50mcg daily now (orally, not sublingually). Perhaps will increase to 75mcg this coming week since it helps a great deal with high volume urination (I am dehydrated).

One month ago I also found out I tolerate Mg oxide well (glycinate and citrate produce pituitary electricity) and am taking 300mg MgO before bed.

Now I would like to know what is making my throat swell and then I spend hours with maddening shallow breathing:

• low serotonin? (I have started citalopram 5 days ago, I hope it will kick in soon)
• high ammonia?
• high ONOO?
• high H2S? (I don't tolerate Epsom salts)
• all of them?
• something else?

Yesterday I tried 100mg of C-salts and got a swollen throat and could not breathe well the whole day. It was the 1st vit C that didn't produce uncomfortable electricity in my pituitary, but then I couldn't breathe. So I am still unable to supplement vit C.

Na bicarbonate footbaths before bed help me to sleep. Sublingual royal jelly sometimes help (not always). When I go to bed my throat unswells, then I sleep for like 3 hours, wake up to urinate and stay awake for 3 hours, then fall asleep and then about half hour later it's time to wake up.

My next step will be to try new probiotics (they will be delivered tomorrow), avoiding histaminogenic strains. What puzzles me is that I do not get rashes/hives nor flu symptoms.

I would be thankful for further suggestions.

Hi Izzy,

Low methylfolate can send histamine way up stimulating allergies, asthma, body wide inflammation and pain, MCS, autoimmune problems, and coupled with low MeCbl, demyelination in the brain and cord, and who knows what else. Before everything got so messed up did you ever try the Active B12 protocol as described? Without sufficient MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and LCF there are over 600 biochemical reactions that don't work. Virtually anything anywhere in the body can break down. It can cause muscle atrophy, heart weakening, liver problems, neurological problems, lung problems with thick sticky mucous, dry mouth, inflammation galore, mood changes, personality changes, multi sensory hallucinations, psychosis, wild mood swings, abnormal mood and personality changes, and hundreds of symptoms in every part of the body.

When I got things too messed up to understand, I would do a fallback to what was last working well and re-titrate and get it working right continuing on. Do you have a "when I was healing well" fallback point?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi @Freddd , thank you so much for your input. I was never able to implement the full protocol b/c I do not tolerate supps like potassium (I get "heavy eyelids", unbearable stomach and bowel irritation, plus it increases my urination even more), magnesium in organic forms (electricity in the pituitary) and vitamin C (same problem as organic magnesium). I am slowly reintroducing the mB12, but am afraid of mFolate now. Once I fix my gut finding the right probiotic, I will try again to implement the protocol. I still want to increase my B5, B6 and B7 intake as well.

The point "when I was healing well" was the first week on 500mcg mB12, the "honeymoon"... Then after that I started having fatigue 3x a week and things just kept getting worse. Starting a low dose Bcompl w/o B9 or B12 helped. I do not have ME/CFS but am severely and increasingly lacking mental, emotional and physical energy especially since I got 3 blood clots in the left shoulder in 2011 and found out about high anti-thyroglobulin antibodies right after that.

izzy

 

[Tyikii]

Izzy,

Check out lowoxalate.info and the research of Susan Costen Owens. We share many of the same symptoms, and doing both low oxalate and Freddd's active protocol (as well as high dose SSKI iodine) has been a huge benefit for me.

All the best.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you, @Tyikii , I will look carefully into that.

Right now I'm convinced that gut dysbiosis is giving me multiple chemical sentivities. When I started taking mB12 a few months ago, my body clearly started to detox heavily. The toxins disturbed the balance in my gut, plus I haven't been wise enough to choose a protocol to pull them out of my body. On top of that I freaked out and didn't follow through with Freddd's protocol.

izzy

 

[Tyikii]

Izzy,

Gut healing only happened for me once the oxalates were mostly out. Only then did Freddd's protocol start to deliver. Reacting to Vit. C (which metabolizes to oxalate), issues with salicylate/amine processing, nighttime urination, MCS, chronic fatigue as well as reacting to almonds and other extremely high oxalate foods, just screams oxalate issues to me. This needs to be ruled out.

Oxalates mess up gut function and sulfur biochemistry, ultimately depleting your sulfur-based B vitamins (biotin and thiamine). The oxalates get stored in a cells mitochondria, monopolize acetyl coA stores and ultimately contribute to chronic fatigue. All the probiotics and glutamine in the world won't matter until you take care of the root cause.

I know when I'm in pain, I just want relief and sort of foreclose on the complexity of a problem by reducing it to a few simple axioms that I can control and monitor. It takes a psychological leap to allow another complementary framework on to the playing field. So while what Freddd repeatedly says is the truth, it is perhaps not the entire truth. Look at the pinned survey, his protocol generally helps, but it rarely is the sole cause of illness amelioration.

You could do a simple test: go low oxalate in the diet for a week, take 100mg regular B6 pyridoxine (not the coenzymated p5p), 5mg (not mcg) of biotin. This will precipitate what's known in oxalate circles as a "dumping" episode. If you notice odd sand-like crystals in your bowel movements and you experience urethra pain when urinating, these are oxalate crystals coming out. Magnesium Malate or Citrate and calcium citrate help mop up the circulating oxalates (which are pro-oxidants). There is a huge amount of information on the lowoxalate.info site as well as a link the yahoo message board that has 8,000 registered users talking about their experiences and swapping supplement ideas. There's an OAT urine test that can confirm issues surrounding oxalate processing. Susan Owens is a PhD researcher who runs that board with 18 years experience in oxalate research. No exaggeration, she deserves a Nobel Prize.

It's taken me 18 months of oxalate dumping to get to this point and I'm not out of the woods yet. And also, just so I don't lose board credibility, I do 30mg enzy mb12, 10mg ab12, 30 mg mfolate and 3 caps of LCFumarate daily for the last 10 months. I owe Freddd my peripheral nervous system, so thanks if he's reading.

Keep learning. The journey out is worth it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Tyikii
Thank you very much for your input.

I agree with you that I have to look into other issues beyond methylation.

I went thru the food lists from lowoxalate.info and found very useful that salicylate content is also listed.
From there I compiled a list of some foods to which I reacted (tight throat, difficulty breathing, anxiety) and also the ones which I can eat w/o issues:

Low oxalate / hi sal - reacted badly
pumpkin avocado cherries
virgin coconut oil olive oil
zucchini honey mushrooms
herbal spices and teas (also hi nitrate)
ginger red grape flour
french artichoke
malic acid

Hi oxalate / low sal - can eat OK
leeks lentils potatoes rice
fig spread
hazelnut flour
pecans bananas

hi oxalate / hi sal - reacted badly
almonds milk thistle
turmeric carrots
oddly tolerating oranges

hi oxalate but also hi nitrate - reacted badly
beets celery

low oxalate / low sal but hi nitrate - reacted badly
lettuce

At some point I did a sulfur exclusion and it was when things started getting worse. SO I concluded my problem is with salicylates and nitrates, caused by gut dybiosis...

I will soon increase my B1, B6 and B7 intake anyway. Unfortunately I do not tolerate Mg citrate well (pituitary electricity) and recently reacted badly to acid malic (hi salicylate), so won't try Mg malate... I feel I need Mg desperately and am considering to try a mix of citrate, glycinate and oxide (perhaps aspartate?).

My reaction to vit C is now somewhat different though... I used to react to different forms of vit C with pituitary electricity. But last week I tried C-salts, got no electricity, but my throat closed... this reaction makes me think of bacterial/viral load die off...

I excluded sals for about 10 days and now are slowly reintroducing them (successfully so far). It seems that the fact that now I am taking citalopram is helping.

Always glad to read everybody else's input as well.

izzy

 

[Freddd]

Hi Izzy. V interesting to read of the ulnar surgery. I had Dupuytrens Contractures in both hands. It had been slowly increasing. After 12 years, I visited a reheumatologist, and a hand surgeon. The only remedy on offer was significant hand surgery, w/ very long rehab, and no certainty that this would not return. This was probably my first use of internet search, 2002, and I found far simpler non-surgical interventions, involving using a needle and anesthetic to cut through the fibrous bits, without slicing into the hand. I flew to Switzerland for this procedure. It was effective, but there was a lot of remaining holding. I used to wear splints in my sleep to keep my hands from contracting.
When I was 2 weeks into GAPS diet, the residual holdings in my hands melted. It was actually sooner than this, but I was unwilling to believe it was true. So, this, too, was a gluten problem. Unbelievable!

I think AS was also one of Freddd's problems prior to his successful methylation protocol.

I always supplement adequate K+. per self-testing. Thankfully, now that I'm on top of this issue I haven't had a crisis for the longest time in recent history. Yay! No more lurching from crisis to crisis! cheers, ahmo

I think AS was also one of Freddd's problems prior to his successful methylation protocol.

What is "AS"?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think AS was also one of Freddd's problems prior to his successful methylation protocol.

What is "AS"?

Ankylosing Spondilytis

 

[Freddd]

Ankylosing Spondilytis

The only time I ever heard that was in an IME exam getting the insurance company off the hook, after the car crash where I was t-boned with 3 fractured vertebras. It was a compression fracture and flaring on one side only and lopsided collapse of 2 disks. Because I didn't have "before x-rays" I couldn't "prove" that happened as a result of a truck crashing into me at 40 mph from the side and the fractures as such couldn't be seen on the x-rays of that period. That whole ridiculous business came about because I had no open wounds to prove the violence of the crash. After that every back imaging I have received has had the obvious fractures and other injuries pointed out to me but nobody would testify to that in court. So I was treated as a nuisance case. And yet the same insurance industry turned around and told me I was uninsurable for my entire life because of those fractures and other damage "which will doubtless require surgery some day". So far there has been no surgery, no need for surgery and an unchanged injury that causes chronic pain. Nasty setup we had.

 

[Critterina]

@Unfortunately I do not tolerate Mg citrate well (pituitary electricity) and recently reacted badly to acid malic (hi salicylate), so won't try Mg malate... I feel I need Mg desperately and am considering to try a mix of citrate, glycinate and oxide (perhaps aspartate?).

Izzy,
I like magnesium glycinate. The Mg oxide is not absorbed well, so if you need a laxative, that's a good one to go for. the Mg glycinate is absorbed well. Can't comment on the citrate.
Crit.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi @Critterina

Mg glycinate was the first one I tried. It gave me chills, pituitary electricity and malaise.

According to

Short summary with lots of information:
http://onibasu.com/wiki/Elevated_ammonia

aminoacid chelate supps make elevated ammonia worse, so I tend to agree with that.

Thanks for chiming in!

izzy

 

[Critterina]

Hi @Critterina
aminoacid chelate supps make elevated ammonia worse, so I tend to agree with that.

Interesting! I had SNPs that suggested ammonia, but I have a good nose and never smelled it. (I also asked people - I'm not shy that way, and no one fessed up to my stinking.) So this would confirm, since I use it (and other amino acid chelates) without problem, that I really didn't have ammonia problems. Thanks!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting! I had SNPs that suggested ammonia, but I have a good nose and never smelled it. (I also asked people - I'm not shy that way, and no one fessed up to my stinking.) So this would confirm, since I use it (and other amino acid chelates) without problem, that I really didn't have ammonia problems. Thanks!

As a salicylate sensitive person, I am strongly affected by smells as well, but I rarely sweat, so I don't stink Plus, I use bicarbonate as soap in the shower and do a lot of bicarbonate foot baths.
But my urine is smelling pungent lately (but not like ammoniac - my sis had a cat who died of kidney failure and his urine had a terrible smell of ammoniac).

izzy

P.S. the effects I feel from chelate supps are general malaise, agitation, anxiety, increased intolerances