overmethylation URGENT HELP

[Freddd]

Does anyone do well on Deplin sized doses or does it always cause overmethylation and/or methyl trapping?

HI Ema,

Methyltrap is caused by MeCbl deficiency or blocked MeCbl for some reason, so that when the cell NEEDS the MeCbl it isn't there and instead it expels l-methylfolate, thereby causing folate deficiency symptoms instead of MeCbl deficiency symptoms. That is methyltrap. Size of l-methylfolate dose is totally irrelevant in methyltrap.

Deplin comes in 7.5 and 15mg. It was tested at 7.5mg, 15mg and 30mg. The most effective doses in the controlled studies were 15mg and 30mg. I tak3, 14.4mg /day, divided in 3 doses and that is barely enough to keep me out of paradoxical folate deficiency at all levels of which I am aware.


It appears to me that most of what people are calling "over methylation" is a combination of donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency, a lack of or too much of AdoCbl and/or LCF. What are given as "overmethylation symptoms" are almost always deficiency symptoms. Deplin size doses with the right cofactors is most frequently associated with relief from hypersensitivity immune response, asthma, allergies, lots of inflammation, depression. Many people interpret a correction of partial methylation block as "overmethylation". A sufficiency of l-methylfolate is essential for a person to have good cell formation and healing.

 

[Freddd]

Any form of supplemental niacin gives me problems. Niacin, niacinimide, even the so-called activated form NADH, which is not supposed to give symptoms because it doesn't have to be "processed" by the body before it can be used. I took like 2.5mg fNADH for just two days in a row and noticed some minor symptoms of methyl trap/methyl blocking. No niacin for me, never again.

Too much niacin in whatever form, and however much is too much for a specific person, can stop healing and cause paradoxical folate deficiency in hours. A small amount is needed for normal vitamin usage

 

[skyebean]

@Freddd, I am confused about the methyl trapping issue. How do you know whether or not you're overmethylating or whether you have the trapping issue going on? I'm so easily experiencing overmethylation symptoms - even from eating a spinach salad, or drinking juice with beets in it - I'd be terrified of adding a whole bunch more. (This has only happened since I have started taking supplements to help with methylation) I took one of Amy Yasko's multis 5 days ago, and starting the day before yesterday my symptoms started coming on really strong. Inflammation, irritability, and a rise in body temperature. Yesterday, I was taking 100mg of niacin every hour and a half or so, and could barely keep my temperature down. Usually one dose fixes everything. I finally read up on methyl trapping, and tried (sublingually) taking methyl b12. I started to feel so much better, head clearer, temp went back down, though still slightly irritable. I woke up in the early morning with my temp climbing again, and I took more b12, and it went back down. By mid-morning it started climbing again. I took more b12, and some niacin, and my symptoms feel totally stubborn again. I haven't taken any supplements for 6 days. I'm not sure what to do. From what I understand about the methyl trapping is that I would remedy that with methylfolate….but that scares the heck out of me, because the first time I took 400 mcg of methylfolate I felt really suicidal and anxious. How do you know it's safe to try that strategy?

I was hypothyroid before I started all of this, but quickly went off as my temp and energy went up. I can't find any info about body temp rising other than some other people have gone off their thyroid meds after working on their methylation.

 

[PeterPositive]

From what I understand about the methyl trapping is that I would remedy that with methylfolate….but that scares the heck out of me, because the first time I took 400 mcg of methylfolate I felt really suicidal and anxious. How do you know it's safe to try that strategy?

My 2c?
By the strength of the side effects. If 400mcg makes you feel suicidal, then it's way too much, you don't have to feel miserable to improve. You didn't say how much methylfolate or B12 you are taking.

Consider going slow and easy at the beginning. For instance 100mcg of Methylfolate and 100-200mcg of B12.
Whatever the dosage make sure it doesn't overwhelm you and stay on it for at least a week, see how it goes. There's no rush in adding more, especially if you're very sensitive. Even relatively small doses can help.

It has taken me months to increase the dosage without bad side effects.

cheers

 

[ahmo]

@skyebean Sorry you're having such difficulties. Fred's not been around for awhile. Look through the Guide linked in my signature to see if you can find some answers.

 

[sregan]

@Freddd Yesterday, I was taking 100mg of niacin every hour and a half or so, and could barely keep my temperature down. Usually one dose fixes everything. I finally read up on methyl trapping, and tried (sublingually) taking methyl b12. I started to feel so much better, head clearer, temp went back down, though still slightly irritable. I woke up in the early morning with my temp climbing again, and I took more b12, and it went back down.

@skyebean do you have your genetics? If you're methyltrapped (I was) you need to take more MB12. I think you would be safer to use a 4 or 5:1 ration of MB12 to Mfolate. Maybe just take MB12 by itself for a couple of days then add back the MFolate slowly. There seems to be no problem with having a bunch more MB12 in your system than Mfolate and may be much safer for those who run into Methyltrapping

 

[skyebean]

@sregan - I don't yet… I am awaiting results.. The only methylfolate I've taken has been a tiny amount (26 mcg) in the All in One vitamin. I also overmethylate with choline, b6, glycine (used for sleep), inositol (also used for sleep), TMG (which I haven't touched in weeks), spinach, and beet juice.. It's like I've been accumulating methyl donors (for lack of a better way of putting it). I can tolerate less and less of them, but I feel my best now when I'm just under the point of overmethylating (or whatever it is that I'm doing). I've always been able to take as much B12 as I want without any negative side effects.. I've done about 7500mgs today…maybe I need more… Thank you for your reply..

 

[skyebean]

@Peter thank you for your 2c… I am definitely backing way up on my supplements…
@ahmo thank you for the link!

 

[sregan]

@sreganI also overmethylate with choline, b6, glycine (used for sleep), inositol (also used for sleep), TMG (which I haven't touched in weeks), spinach, and beet juice.. It's like I've been accumulating methyl donors (for lack of a better way of putting it). I can tolerate less and less of them, but I feel my best now when I'm just under the point of overmethylating (or whatever it is that I'm doing). I've always been able to take as much B12 as I want without any negative side effects.. I've done about 7500mgs today…maybe I need more… Thank you for your reply..

You might find you have COMT ++ if you are accumulating methyl donors. Taking B3 should soak those up. According to Caledonia you have to take B3 often and for a few days to really shut down methylation. Also taking Lithium will help your COMT as the mutation is a downregulation.

You mean 7500 mcgs or 7.5 mg which is a substantial dose.

If B6 is causing you trouble you might have a CBS issue and may do well to investigate sulfur

 

[Adlyfrost]

I just made mistake of taking regular niacin to stop methylation and got a very scary flush. I had a tremor that last 15 minutes and felt I was burning from the inside out and had to pack myself full of ice. I believe the correct thing to take is SLOW RELEASE niacin- nicotinic acid- it will flush you if you take too much but not as much as just plain b3. I have to take on full stomach. About 50 mg's every few hours or until symptoms are better. That would be a fraction of a 250 or 500mg tab.

I am now on a LOW dose nature made b complex (taken in 1/4 tabs throughout day) with no folate or b12 so I get niacin everyday in that form and I also switched to dibencozide instead of methlyB12. I don't think methylation is as effective now but at least my crumbs are tolerable. I may go back to toothpick amounts of methylB12 until I can tolerate higher doses.

 

[skyebean]

@sregan I think I am close to getting my results... Thank you for the info on the COMT.... I haven't seen anything about accumulation of methyl donors, and that's what seems to be happening for me... I was taking 50mgs of b6 in my multi for a long time, and I was fine. That was actually when I started to get some energy back. I was taking Nature's plus multi with lots of Bs. It has the cyanide b12 and folic acid, though, so I stopped taking it. I didn't start overmethylation until I started taking choline and TMG. I've just started getting more and more sensitive to methyl donors.

I also used to use GABA and tryptophan for help with mood, and now tryptophan does nothing, and GABA makes me really anxious. Again, it feels like a tank has filled up.


I am going to keep on with the b3. I thought It just wasn't working anymore. I have taken a bunch of magnesium malate over the last 24 hours, and I could be wrong, but it seems to be making the niacin work better.....my temps are coming down now when I take it.

Thank you so much for your feedback!!!! I really appreciate the help...

 

[skyebean]

@Adlyfrost I used to have a minor flush at 50mgs of niacin. At a 100 mgs I had a very painful and scary flush... The more my methylation tank fills up, the more I can take before I have a flush.....so much more! I'm taking 100mgs every hour and a half and not feeling a flush until the end of the day...

I am anxiously awaiting my 23andme results so I can figure out what I need a little better....

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[skyebean]

@sregan I just checked the link you had in your post to Caledonia's. I have also been taking lots of potassium, but it felt like the magnesium (which I added later) was what was really helping my temps. Also, I have been craving dark chocolate (mag), but not so much potassium foods... Does the same thing happen with magnesium that happens with potassium - when methylation starts going again, the body starts utilizing it?

 

[sregan]

@sregan I just checked the link you had in your post to Caledonia's. I have also been taking lots of potassium, but it felt like the magnesium (which I added later) was what was really helping my temps. Also, I have been craving dark chocolate (mag), but not so much potassium foods... Does the same thing happen with magnesium that happens with potassium - when methylation starts going again, the body starts utilizing it?

Yes, many here have stated an increased need for Magnesium when taking Methylation supplements. I take my potassium with magnesium and calcium. I can tell I need this when my calf muscles start feeling crampy

 

[sregan]

@sregan I think I am close to getting my results... Thank you for the info on the COMT.... I haven't seen anything about accumulation of methyl donors, and that's what seems to be happening for me... I was taking 50mgs of b6 in my multi for a long time, and I was fine. That was actually when I started to get some energy back. I was taking Nature's plus multi with lots of Bs. It has the cyanide b12 and folic acid, though, so I stopped taking it. I didn't start overmethylation until I started taking choline and TMG. I've just started getting more and more sensitive to methyl donors.

I don't know if the cynacobalamin displaces more active cobalamins like MB12. If so it probably should be avoided. But you definitely want to avoid Folic Acid as it can contribute to Paradoxical Folate Deficiency.

I also used to use GABA and tryptophan for help with mood, and now tryptophan does nothing, and GABA makes me really anxious. Again, it feels like a tank has filled up.

Tryptophan needs you to have B6 in your system to convert it to Serotonin. P5P should be even better since it's the active form of B6. Also if you are low on B3 your body will use Tryptophan to make it so you want to make sure you have B3 in your system when you take Trypto. Also you should not have eaten any protein or take amino acids prior to the trypto as there are 4-5 other aminos that will compete with the Trypto on the limited seating bus that is the blood brain barrier. Only so much can cross and if you have competing aminos in your system at the time you'll get less Trypto. And finally it's recommended to have a high carb snack with your Trypto which is supposed to aid absorption.

As for the GABA it's not even supposed to be be able to cross the BBB in the first place but those who are ill it's assume the BBB permeability has been compromised somewhat which is why the GABA can cross. But you may also be running into the same issue as you may with the Tryptophan that you have too much of competing substances in your blood at the time and the GABA cannot cross either?

I am going to keep on with the b3. I thought It just wasn't working anymore. I have taken a bunch of magnesium malate over the last 24 hours, and I could be wrong, but it seems to be making the niacin work better.....my temps are coming down now when I take it.

Thank you so much for your feedback!!!! I really appreciate the help...

Your very welcome! Regarding your temperature, I thought most temp fluctuations were due to thyroid. Is that what you are referring to here? And the higher temps are they over 98.6 or just your usual norm (which is what?)

 

[skyebean]

Your very welcome! Regarding your temperature, I thought most temp fluctuations were due to thyroid. Is that what you are referring to here? And the higher temps are they over 98.6 or just your usual norm (which is what?)

(trying to quote you)

Yes… as soon as I hit 98.8, I know I'm overmethylated. Yesterday, I went up to 99.7. The niacin usually brings me back down to normal, but the past few days it wasn't working. It did start working after I took the magnesium, which might also be because magnesium helps with temp regulation. Don't know. I know I feel better than I have in the past four days, that's for sure!!

With the GABA and tryptophan, I just assumed they're not working anymore, because I'm making enough of those now… If you take too much GABA it makes you anxious, so it makes sense that adding it in would make that happen (if I am making plenty or too much right now).

 

[sregan]

(trying to quote you)

Yes… as soon as I hit 98.8, I know I'm overmethylated. Yesterday, I went up to 99.7. The niacin usually brings me back down to normal, but the past few days it wasn't working. It did start working after I took the magnesium, which might also be because magnesium helps with temp regulation. Don't know. I know I feel better than I have in the past four days, that's for sure!!

Interesting, wondering if anyone else experiences this and what may be the cause of the temperature increase?

With the GABA and tryptophan, I just assumed they're not working anymore, because I'm making enough of those now… If you take too much GABA it makes you anxious, so it makes sense that adding it in would make that happen (if I am making plenty or too much right now).

GABA should make you calm in any quantity you take. That's what it does. Only if for any reason the body can and would want to convert it to something else that might stimulate which I've not heard of.

 

[Ema]

GABA should make you calm in any quantity you take. That's what it does. Only if for any reason the body can and would want to convert it to something else that might stimulate which I've not heard of.

Actually, this isn't true. GABA has a bell-shaped response curve and both too low or too high can cause unpleasant symptoms such as anxiety. Julia Ross discusses this somewhat in her book, The Mood Cure, where she remarks that high doses of GABA such as found in some supplements actually provoke a paradoxical response.

I have high GABA levels and I believe that is why I had a paradoxical response to both Valium and GABA.

 

[skyebean]

Interesting, wondering if anyone else experiences this and what may be the cause of the temperature increase?

Yes… I really wonder that myself. I have seen a few posts about people going of their thyroid meds when they started working on the their methylation, because they went hyperthyroid. This is definitely what happened to me. My temps started going up into the 100s. I weaned off of my desiccated thyroid, and then my temps became nice and stable at around 98.4-98.6. Now, when my temps stay up for more than a day, I start getting really dry heels again like I did when I was hypo. I don't know if the temp increase is coming from the thyroid, the adrenals, the hypothalamus… I cannot find any reference to rises in temp on methyl supps.

 

[skyebean]

Actually, this isn't true. GABA has a bell-shaped response curve and both too low or too high can cause unpleasant symptoms such as anxiety. Julia Ross discusses this somewhat in her book, The Mood Cure, where she remarks that high doses of GABA such as found in some supplements actually provoke a paradoxical response.

I have high GABA levels and I believe that is why I had a paradoxical response to both Valium and GABA.

I started tinkering with aminos after reading Julia Ross' book, too… It took a couple of times of me taking GABA (in the middle of the night) to figure out it was making me panic.

My daughter had a horrible reaction to Valium when she had a dental procedure where they had her under conscious sedation. I am so anxious to see our DNA results so that I can figure out how to help everyone..