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Methylation protocol big problems, advice please!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sunking101, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. sunking101

    sunking101

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    Hi,

    I'm following Fredd's protocol and have run into some major difficulties.
    I have sadly been unable to avoid taking the RDA level of folic acid which comes in my multi but on top of that I have been taking an RDA level of methylfolate contained in the Thorne Basic B Complex and also half of one 400mcg Solgar methylfolate tablet. Along with this I'm taking half a Jarrow Mb12 sublingual and have been building my way up, slowly, from tiny amounts. I realise that I still have a long way to go in order to increase my dosages but I have been really sensitive to these supplements.

    Right, onto my problem...

    For the past few days I have had a near-constant angina-like ache in the left side of my chest and have also been suffering from numerous palpitations and heart flutterings. I have also become 'crashy' and feel incredibly fatigued.
    It is worth noting that my latest blood test results from the GP show 'ok' levels of B12 but high levels of folate. I'm curious as to whether I need to decrease my folate, increase my B12 or start ingesting additional potassium!
    Can anyone tell me if the symptoms I have mentioned, or the high plasma folate suggests an obvious solution?

    Many thanks!
     
  2. fozzaw

    fozzaw

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    I have the same symptom from too much methylfolate, plus an increase in histamine problems. I think for any given level of mb12 and other supplements, there is a corresponding sweet spot for methylfolate dose.
     
    Crux likes this.
  3. sunking101

    sunking101

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    It seems worse when I pop my Thorne Basic B now. I have been taking that daily for around three months with no side effects. Am I possibly getting too much of one of the other B vitamins or is this all to do with the B12 and methylfolate balance?
     
  4. fozzaw

    fozzaw

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    I'm happy to speculate, as will others, but at the end of the day, you're going to have to try the components separately and see what the problem actually is for you. For example, since you have the methylfolate and mb12 as separate supplements, try taking extra of each on different days.
     
  5. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Are you taking any of the methylfolate close to the same time as you are taking the folic acid? I thought I remember Fredd mentioning that if you did take any folic acid then wait about 4 hours before taking any methylfolate. I don't remember the exact reason, but it was a situation Fredd himself was encountering at the time.
     
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    My suggestion would be to stop all methylation supplements including your multi, and take 50-100mg of a slow release nicontinic acid form of niacin.

    Take the niacin 4 times a day until symptoms settle down. In my experience it will take 4 or 5 days if you have methylation cranking pretty good.

    I believe what you are experiencing is potassium/magnesium insufficiency symptoms. So you can also try supplementing with magnesium and/or potassium.

    Then the question is, is this a normal amount of deficiency caused by having a higher need because you're cranking up methylation? Or is this an exceptional need caused a combination of methylation and leaky gut?

    If you have symptoms of leaky gut, such as multiple food intolerances or candida overgrowth, you should stop methylation and treat the gut first or this situation can become dangerous. A 4R gut rebuilding program seems to be the best way to treat the gut.
     
    ninauae and sregan like this.
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Sunking101, I get those symptoms from potassium deficiency. Actually, recently I had the same from too little mg as well as Zinc. But generally it's potassium for me: heart pounding or palpitating, breathlessness, heartburn type feeling, progressing into light-headed, faint, balance issues. Good luck sorting it. ahmo
     
  8. Basil

    Basil

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    I believe I had severe potassium deficiency symptoms just from taking the Thorne Basic B for a few months. I've been ill possibly 55 years, so I do have extreme reactions to things. I didn't realise at the time that it might start up methylation, just knew that methylcobalamin was required. I had severe myalgia, mainly in my back and neck, with severe weak malaise. Unaware of what was causing it, I went on GAPS diet, which has plunged me into possible histamine intolerance, but included potassium rich stock....so the muscle pain issues were much less, though still a significant symptom for me.

    Now I am only taking the B complex every 3 or 4 days while I work on lowering histamine and taking a superstrength probiotic to help the gut problems. If I take too much, or try to add in Methylcobalamin and Methylfolate, even in tiny doses, I am dizzy, lightheaded, very short of breath and have a feeling like my heart is in trouble. And the depression is seriously frightening, though I don't believe that is related to the potassium.

    I am also working on what balance of magnesium and potassium will best help the myalgia, and I intend to try to saturate my tissues with them some more before going too intensely into methylation. Frustrating, but I have to go really slowly with everything, and I could have saved myself a lot of suffering if I had known what some on this forum are sharing.

    I am so messed up, I never have been able to figure out if any of my symptoms are from food intolerances and allergies. Strict GAPS didn't help, but going grain free has enabled me to tolerate a superstrength probiotic better. I am learning how important it is to get the various steps in order, but no one seems to know what those steps is for every case.
     
  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The steps are exactly what Yasko says they are. I know this from experience trying to skip steps. Then you run into problems and have to go back and do the thing you skipped before you can proceed.

    So you might as well just do what Yasko says regarding the steps in the first place.

    The steps are GABA/glutamate balance, the gut, the First Priority mutations (SHMT, ACAT and CBS), then the Second Priority mutations (BHMT, MTR, MTRR, MTHFR, etc.)

    There are more steps (such as remyelinating nerves), but I haven't gotten that far yet, so I'm not as familiar with those.

    See the Yasko links in my signature.
     
  10. sunking101

    sunking101

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    Some interesting replies here, thanks everyone.
    I am holding off with the niacin and stopping everything but the bottle is here and if I don't get this awful angina thing sorted soon I will stop the protocol. I'm loathe to do that because I have seen distinct improvements in energy, PEM and reduced inflammation. However, heart problems cannot be ignored and I don't want to do myself an injury!

    So far over the past 48 hours I have been eating bananas like they're going out of fashion, popping a couple of 99mg potassium caps and I've also increased my magnesium intake on a daily basis. I have also stopped taking the Jarrow Mb12 and Solgar methylfolate. I'm only taking my multi, the Thorne Basic B Complex, magnesium,potassium and selenium. My anxiety is still ramped and the 'angina' is still there on and off (mainly on) throughout the day but it lessens after I've scoffed a banana or two. The chest discomfort tends to be worse when I wake up and in the early evening. Just one last question, is it usual for a B Complex to start methylation and is it also usual for methylation to suddenly crank up after a few months of following these protocols?
     
  11. sunking101

    sunking101

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    I'm starting back on the methylfolate and Mb12 but in much smaller doses this time. I've seen 'crumbs' mentioned before but is there a correct balance? ie should I be taking more Mb12 or more methylfolate, what is the correct ratio? Today I took 1/4 of a 400mcg folate and 1/4 of a 1000mcg Mb12 but are these ratios alright?
     
  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Does your Thorne Basic B complex contain the methylated forms? My Thorne B's is called Methylguard, and even that can cause me very extreme issues. When I first started taking it, before reading here, I took the recommended dosage of 3 a day, and in a few days felt like I was going crazy and my head was going to explode.

    Also, I didn't take seriously the need to supplement with potassium and put myself in a really bad flare from working outside in the heat two Saturdays ago. I had the headache and pain in the back of the skull and upper spine, facial neuralgia, nausea, fatigue,insomnia, sweating and chills, and worst of all, severe depression to the point of thinking about suicide. I can't remember what else. After about 24 hours of taking potassium the depression went away. What a relief, I think that was the worst symptom. Since then I have read that potassium deficiency can cause very severe depression, along with a lot of other mental symptoms. No one know how much potassium another person will need, so if you find a symptom that goes away with taking potassium, you can know you need more when it returns. 99mg is practically nothing.

    I think a lot of the problems caused by the B's are because of the condition of the liver. I stopped taking the methyl B's for a while and focused on choline and inositol, to remove the blockage in the liver. The choline and inositol helped so much I can't even believe it. Getting the liver cleaned out can actually help the rest of your digestive tract. If the B's cause problems, it's not helping anything to keep taking them.

    I have been wondering if this time of the year accentuates potassium deficiency, because I know two other people who recently started to have symptoms while eating/drinking the same diet.
     
  13. sunking101

    sunking101

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    Yes, it contains the methylated forms of everything including folate. I haven't taken it for two days now but have reintroduced much smaller amounts of methylfolate and Mb12. I'm also taking potassium in the form of bananas and 99mh capsules. I do find that the capsules cause me to have diarrhea, even just taking a couple a day (unless this is a symptom of a methylation cycle problem).
    I can't understand why I was fine taking the B Complex *and* additional folate/Mb12 for a few months and now I'm suddenly in a right state. I have found that depression, anxiety, heart problems and diarrhea have come on since I stopped taking my usual protocol amounts.
     
  14. sunking101

    sunking101

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    Sorry, the heart problems came on just before I stopped taking my usual amounts.
     
  15. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I just looked up niacin deficiency and symptoms do include diarrhea and depression. My Thorne B doesn't contain niacin, does yours? If the bananas help the angina, then would that mean for sure that it's a potassium deficiency for you? What type of potassium do you take?
    I have been thinking more about this time of year being more likely to bring on potassium deficiency, and I remember reading that when the weather starts to get colder, or just cooler depending on where you live, your blood becomes more acid, and potassium alkalizes your system. So you would naturally need more. Warm weather makes your blood more alkaline. So it may not be that methylation is cranked up, but maybe just that potassium deficiency is accentuated. Today I made a potassium broth with potatoes with the skins still on and celery. It doesn't taste that great, but it's a more natural way to get the potassium. Have you tried coconut water? I think it's very expensive, but it might help. Chewing on celery is good, too, because it has potassium and sodium in the natural forms.
     
  16. Ben Williams

    Ben Williams

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    sunking, I think I may be in your boat. I only took 4 grams of TMG ONE TIME and I'm still in your boat. Bad anxiety, heart palpitations, angina, depression - its been 7 weeks for me.
     
  17. Ben Williams

    Ben Williams

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    Caledonia, in regards to the methylation and leaky gut - how can it become dangerous?
     
  18. sunking101

    sunking101

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    I hope the damage these methylation protocols cause isn't permanent! It seems a very dangerous thing to do, taking methyl forms of B vitamins and folate (also TMG). I can understand why Rich said to only attempt the protocol whilst under the supervision of a doctor. Sadly, in the UK at least, most if not all doctors know nothing about the methylation cycle and would turn their noses up at any talk of 'protocols'.
     
  19. sunking101

    sunking101

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    "I just looked up niacin deficiency and symptoms do include diarrhea and depression. My Thorne B doesn't contain niacin, does yours? If the bananas help the angina, then would that mean for sure that it's a potassium deficiency for you? What type of potassium do you take?
    I have been thinking more about this time of year being more likely to bring on potassium deficiency, and I remember reading that when the weather starts to get colder, or just cooler depending on where you live, your blood becomes more acid, and potassium alkalizes your system. So you would naturally need more. Warm weather makes your blood more alkaline. So it may not be that methylation is cranked up, but maybe just that potassium deficiency is accentuated. Today I made a potassium broth with potatoes with the skins still on and celery. It doesn't taste that great, but it's a more natural way to get the potassium. Have you tried coconut water? I think it's very expensive, but it might help. Chewing on celery is good, too, because it has potassium and sodium in the natural forms."

    Yes, the Basic B Complex contains niacin. Coming off it and reducing my other intake of Mb12 & methlfolate has lessened the angina but it is still there. Munching bananas seems to help a little but not greatly. The only thing which reduces it significantly is complete withdrawal....but this brings with it horrendous depression, fatigue, a recurrence of pre-protocol inflammation and joint pain. What a to do! :-(
     

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