Overmethylated, yet inspired! What next?

[alice111]

One of the most important things I learned in my healing journey is that when thyroid horomone is low, my mind gets anxious and starts gravitating towards worrying or titillating topics (like news websites, or thinking about mistakes in my life).

@Sherpa you said that being HYPO thyroid gave you adrenaline symptoms? were these resolved when you increased your dose? how did you know this was the cause?
I ask because I myself am dealing with what seems to be an "adrenaline spike" daily (heart palps, sweating, and anxiety) I thought that perhaps I was HYPER (I am on meds for hashis) but after testing it seems I am quite HYPO
thanks!

 

[Sherpa]

@alice111 I learned from Dr. Shames' book Thyroid Mind Power that thyroid and adrenaline systems are connected and can compensate for each other. If thyroid hormone is too low.. The body will produce and run 'on adrenaline' to maintain homeostasis.

Adding a bit of thyroid boosting minerals (iodine, selenium) and / or glandular (Thyrotrophin PMG) can calm things down.

 

[alice111]

Hi Sherpa,

I have no disagreement with having a good mineral/electrolyte balance. It is essential. Perhaps it is possible that I had only signs of healing type side effects (induced deficiencies causing increased paradoxical folate deficiency and hypoglycemia) because I has already been working on minerals for decades. Despite my agreement with minerals, glutathione destroys AdoCbl and MeCbl about as fast and thoroughly as cyanide or nitrous oxide abuse (or other cause of daily use) and can cause demyelination of nerves starting in less than two weeks in some cases. It can be dangerous. I don't think anybody knows what the minimum dose of glutathione causes methyltrap. I do know that from personal experience does that. I was just following the directions on the packaging, nothing extreme or unusual. I was very hopeful of benefit, not additional damage that 5-6 years later has only partly corrected.

Increased pain in muscles with methylfolate are often because of induced deficiencies. Have you looked at the 10 (if I'm remembering correctly) different muscle pains described as well as people could describe them, including me, in the list of symptoms by nutrient. My muscle pains required sufficient MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF. Each one of those affected muscle pains in a different way or of different types. LCF turned out to be key to removing all of them that were not neuropathic in origin and it even can even help that, and maybe works best in the presence of prolactin (hypothetically). Combining the two has only happened to people coincidently.

What is the list of correlating muscle pain and defficiencies, can someone point me in the direction? Thanks!

 

[mermaid]

@Sherpa I just tried to quote a bit from your post re Dr Lynch, but cannot work out how to do it without messing it up!
Anyway, I find the science on here rather challenging, so forgive my layman's talk below......I was very interested re the quote and link you put in re reducing thyroid meds with methylation.

I rather think I had just reached this conclusion myself today but without understanding the mechanism.

I have a Dr who helps me with my ME, but as he's rather expensive, and far away I am working it out alone much of the time. He did some testing last year and got me going on a number of supplements which I realise are some of
the methylation ones. I am on B2, B6, B12 (5000mcg sublingual) and methylfolate (Dr's Best 600 mcg). After some intial issues with B2 and B6 I had no issues with the others (whereas I could not tolerate the methylfolate when I tried some a year ago).

I am also hypothyroid and take T3 only (for 2 yrs after using T4 only for around 17 yrs).

I soon began to feel a lot better around Nov/Dec, and sometimes felt rather high and did have more sleep issues, but I normally sleep well. I also see a herbalist and she had me on some adrenal support (liquorice) and digestive support (I have chronic gastritis). Unfortunately she then switched me onto mostly cat's claw and I began to deteriorate.

I began to have more frequent migraine aura with a lot of symptoms afterwards (lasting for 2 days) and I realised this week that my adrenals were struggling. It was only today that I remember someone telling me that T3 could be rather hard on the adrenals and thought to reduce my dose. I hadn't tied it in with the methylation issue, but I see it could well be related to all of that.

I am about to have an adrenal saliva test again to see if they need more support at this time, and have restarted on the liquorice mix too.

 

[Sherpa]

@mermaid great you are tolerating methylfolate now! Yes, I had to cut my thyroid glandular dose by half or more when taking methylation supplements. My particular type of hypothyroudism seems linked to methylation status.

And yes..taking thyroid hormone can stimulate adrenal activity... And if they are stressed or dysregulated it can make your condition worse

 

[mermaid]

@Sherpa thanks, just trying to get my head round it all and what is happening now that it has all gone wrong since Christmas. Hoping that cutting my thyroid hormone will help, though I probably only need to reduce it a little.

Curiously my chronic gastritis healed up before Christmas when it was all going well, but I took a new supplement after Christmas and it all nosedived as it badly disagrees with my stomach. Unfortunately it's the Carnitine fumarate which I have tried to take before with the same result. I began to take it as I thought it might help support the problems I was having.....

One thing I noted before Christmas when clearly methylation was running better was that at times I was ravenously hungry and still losing a little weight, so reducing the thyroid med (T3) will probably stabilise that too. Luckily I am not thin so could afford to lose a little more.

Can I ask why you were rejected by 23andme? I have not had mine checked either, but more for cost reasons - just can't afford everything on top of all the supplements/herbal meds! I have thought about it, but decided it wasn't vital.

 

[Sherpa]

I was rejected by 23andMe because I did not follow their directions exactly. I was so excited for the test and in a brain fog that I didn't close the top on the vial and let the solvent solution mix with my saliva sample to preserve it for shipping and testing. Duh!

I will say that the test was EXTREMELY helpful in figuring out my health issues and best possible treatments. It was not easy to figure out, and I had to do literally hundreds of hours of research to get a handle on it.

 

[Freddd]

I see a lot mixing of methylation and thyroid considerations. I want to point out one very important difference, rate of response. MeCbl and AdoCbl used through mucosal absorption can start responding in 5 minutes and has typically peaked by 2 hours. Methylfolate taken orally can start affecting a person in an hour or less and peaks in 2 or 3 hours and fades after that, very serum level related. L-carnitine can take effect in an hour and can take up to 36 hours or so to return to previous condition.

Changes in TSH from hormone dose levels takes days to start responding and longer to fully adjust. The exact times aren't the point. It is this difference in rate that is important. If one tries to adjust thyroid each day based on how they feel each day things are going to mess up. B12 and folate have basically immediate effects. It takes weeks or months for equilibrium to be reached with MeCbl, a few doses for some people with AdoCbl but not everybody. So one needs to learn the dynamics of their own body. But B12 and folate and be changed every day knowing what is helping and what symptoms are being affected. There is no such fast connection with thyroid hormone and TSH.

Be careful. Good Health.

 

[alice111]

What is the list of correlating muscle pain and defficiencies, can someone point me in the direction? Thanks!

Hi Sherpa,

I have no disagreement with having a good mineral/electrolyte balance. It is essential. Perhaps it is possible that I had only signs of healing type side effects (induced deficiencies causing increased paradoxical folate deficiency and hypoglycemia) because I has already been working on minerals for decades. Despite my agreement with minerals, glutathione destroys AdoCbl and MeCbl about as fast and thoroughly as cyanide or nitrous oxide abuse (or other cause of daily use) and can cause demyelination of nerves starting in less than two weeks in some cases. It can be dangerous. I don't think anybody knows what the minimum dose of glutathione causes methyltrap. I do know that from personal experience does that. I was just following the directions on the packaging, nothing extreme or unusual. I was very hopeful of benefit, not additional damage that 5-6 years later has only partly corrected.

Increased pain in muscles with methylfolate are often because of induced deficiencies. Have you looked at the 10 (if I'm remembering correctly) different muscle pains described as well as people could describe them, including me, in the list of symptoms by nutrient. My muscle pains required sufficient MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF. Each one of those affected muscle pains in a different way or of different types. LCF turned out to be key to removing all of them that were not neuropathic in origin and it even can even help that, and maybe works best in the presence of prolactin (hypothetically). Combining the two has only happened to people coincidently.

@Freddd where can I find this list with pain and correlating deficiencies? Thanks!

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd where can I find this list with pain and correlating deficiencies? Thanks!

Hi Alice111,

I retrieved it.

SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0

In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

morning joint stiffness and pain
paleness
acid reflux
nausea
daily vomiting
standing with eyes closed, lose balance
hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
glove and stocking anesthesia
neuropathic bladder
unable to release bladder, mild to severe
unable to fully empty the bladder
fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
always feeling cold
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
sleep disorders
non restorative sleep
Night terrors
Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
Sleep paralysis
alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
alterations and loss of taste
taste hallucinations
smell hallucinations
sound hallucinations
visual hallucinations
alterations and loss of smell
loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it in mid word
blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
optic atrophy
centrocecal scotomata
hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
burning muscle pain
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
sore burning tongue

This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

Bursitis
stomach not emptying
frequent vomiting
acid regurgitation
dyspepsia
flatulence
altered bowel habits
abdominal pain
loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
nutrient specific anorexia
intermittent constipation
intermittent diarrhea
irritable bowel syndrome
sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
anorexia
Bulimia
Hypersensitivity to touch
Hypersensitivity to odors
Hypersensitivity to tastes
Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
burning bladder (no UTI)
painful urgency (no UTI)
burning urethra (no UTI)
Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
elevated LDH
big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
platelet dysfunction, low count
white cell changes, low count
hyper segmented neutrophils
headaches
inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
asthma
chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
chronic sinus congestion
dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
chronic infections, many varieties possible
Seborrhic dermatitis
dandruff
eczema
dermatitis
skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
poor hair condition
thin nails
transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
mouth sensitive to hot and cold
sore burning tongue
beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
teeth sensitive to hot and cold
canker sores


with p5p added

Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
impaired white blood cell response
poor resistance to infections
easy bruising
pronounced anemia
macrocytic anemia
megablastic anemia
pernicious anemia
decreased blood clotting
MCV > 93 first warning,
MCV > 97 alert
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

Plus Vitamin E
Child with neural tube defects

mother of child with neural tube defect

These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


lack of dreaming
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
macrocytic anemia
metallic taste in mouth
Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
loss of orgasmic intensity
unsatisfying orgasms
inability to orgasm
loss and/or change of genital sensations
burning genital skin sensation
unable to feel aroused
numb genital skin
low sex hormones

MEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
erectile disfunction men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
low sperm count
poor sperm motility
Poor sperm quality
no sperm


WOMEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone
low estrogen

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
post partum depression
post partum psychosis

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
Frequent miscarriage

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
False positive pap smears, defective cells
menstrual symptoms


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.



These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.



CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


Elevated CSF Hcy
Low CSF cobalamin
limbs feel stiff
Drowsy


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl

dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
Clumsiness


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin


Slow to adapt to night vision


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF


Difficulty in word finding

CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
demyelinated areas on nerves
subacute combined degeneration
axonal degeneration of spinal cord
unsteadiness of gait
ataxic gait, particularly in dark
positive Romberg
positive Lhermittes
Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
Loss of sense of joint position
sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
sudden "ice pick" pain
decreased reflexes
brisk reflexes
Foot Drop
tripping over toes
injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
general feeling of weakness


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items


L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl


weight loss involuntary
muscular atrophy
exercise does not build muscle



L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

weight gain, watery fat
edema


L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


mild to extremely severe fatigue
continuous extremely severe fatigue
easy fatigability
severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
weakness
muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
accumulating muscle pains following exertion
sore muscles throughout body
lack of muscle recovery after exercise
High urinary MMA



AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

congestive heart failure
Elevated CSF MMA
Elevated uMMA


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.





MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
heart palpitations


MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
weak pulse



MeCbl - AdoCbl

Confusion
Disorientation
Difficulty in word finding


MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

irritable
depression
SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
mental slowing
personality changes
chronic malaise
poor concentration
moodiness
tiredness
mood swings
memory loss
listlessness
impaired connection to others
mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
dizziness - even unable to walk
Vertigo


MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
Alzheimer's
delirium
dementia
paranoia
delusions
hallucinations - multisensory
anxiety or tension
nervousness
mania
Widespread pain throughout body



A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.

 

[SwanRonson]

The two weeks for MS type (and SACD) demyelinations comes from journal reported studies and case histories from cyanide exposure, 5-20gram HyCbl exposure, nitrous oxide exposure on a daily basis.

@Freddd am I understanding your statement right, that 5 to 20 grams of HydroxyB12 will induce nerve demyelination? Can you give explanation of how that happens, or point to any material that does, or was that purely through observation? I understand the cyanide and NO effect, but I don't understand how HydroxyB12 would do the same thing. Thanks.

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd am I understanding your statement right, that 5 to 20 grams of HydroxyB12 will induce nerve demyelination? Can you give explanation of how that happens, or point to any material that does, or was that purely through observation? I understand the cyanide and NO effect, but I don't understand how HydroxyB12 would do the same thing. Thanks.

This is an observation of reported case histories and studies, from the information, not their conclusions as they were not even considering those things, just reporting. Then there is additional material of my own observation of performance that isn't possible by anybody who isn't hypersensitive to the differences in various forms of B12. The question wouldn't even be formed without the personal experience.

So let's take a number of characteristics.

1 - Some people, me included, have a distinctive response to HyCbl or photolyticaly degraded CyCbl, AdoCbl and MeCbl. We get acne type lesions (epithelial lesions) within a day or two of injection. Some people get these same epithelial lesions all over their body growing to the size of a quarter in severe situations. Folic acid causes these same lesions but usually not the first symptoms. With the folic acid and folinic acid (for some people) these lesions appear third, after angular cheilitis and IBS, but first for some people. Also, with glutathione, the epithelial lesions appear after a couple of weeks with other symptoms appearing first. This looks like a characteristic of the “internal triage levels”, various types of paradoxical folate deficiency, partial methylation block.

2- The trials with 5-20grams of HyCbl were done with people who were exposed to deadly levels of cyanide. The cyanide replaces the methyl group in methylcobalamin forming the inert, non-poisonous Cyanocobalamin, a waste product, that continues to circulate in the body for several days as the ceiling on kidney excretion is hit. Based on these large dose studies and trials that included up to 500mg of MeCbl in one person, there is a maximum excretion amount. If it were excreted on the straight serum half life basis it would be over 99% gone in two days. Instead it takes much longer with what appears to be a maximum of 10mg to 50mg per hour. The body just doesn’t remove 5 grams in an hour for instance as it would if it were removed on a straight half life basis.

3 - Not all MeCbl is created equal. In at least some people, low quality MeCbl can block high quality MeCbl. I have done a lot of trials in the last 11 years of combining various batches. When mixing a 3 star and 5 star MeCbl, the 5 star effects disappear completely when the 5 star MeCbl gets down to about 20% of the total after fading all the way down. There are some varieties of MeCbl that are no better than CyCbl. I don’t have the expensive high tech instruments of instrumental chemistry to just run down to the lab and test the items in question. I can’t even begin to tell you why. Too much proportionately of AdoCbl also can block MeCbl effectiveness. Too much MeCbl can block AdoCbl effectiveness. Too much HyCbl can block MeCbl.

4 – HyCbl is NOT a methylator and has no methyl groups to donate. It competes for methyl groups. Changing HyCbl to MeCbl requires an enzyme and ATP which are dependent upon having working MeCbl, L-methylfolate, LCF and AdoCbl otherwise there is that 4 way deadlock. To make MeCbl out of HyCbl requires that one already has a working system with MeCbl, AdoCbl, LCF and l-methylfolate. So when the body has been flushed of MeCbl by cyanide and mega-doses of HyCbl are given, then the HyCbl completely dominates the cobalamin status of the body for up to 2 weeks or so before enough has been excreted that it is even possible that the 10-20mcg daily recycling of inactive cobalamins (CyCbl and HyCbl) to MeCbl is enough, if it can happen at all. That amount of MeCbl is rarely sufficient to reverse the demyelization.

5 - As CyCbl and HyCbl work on about 2/3 of people at all under normal circumstances (1/3 not at all on normally responsive symptoms being studied) and on only a handful of B12 deficiency symptoms out of the hundreds, and poorly and incompletely at best for most people on those few symptoms. In two weeks of CyCbl or HyCbl I can go into methyltrap as can many people like me. The cyanide only speeds it up. HyCbl does not stop partial methylation block from happening and doesn’t correct it. What I don’t know is what percentages of people are so affected to what degrees and how rapidly. Mostly these things develop slowly over time.

 

[Johnmac]

I was quickly able to cut down my adrenal (hydrocortisone) and thyoid meds (T3) after starting the Freddd protocol.

I'm now off them altogether. That may be too soon (I'm just sick of them). But it was unthinkable a year ago.

 

[sheclimber]

@Johnmac can you define what you mean by quickly?

I'm not on medication, but am on herbals and dessicated organs for adrenal support, and it seems the effect those are having on me is getting stronger. I'm thinking if my energy starts getting to a place of feeling a little too much, then tapering those off (especially the dessicated adrenal) will be my first step.

 

[optimist]

This is interesting @Sherpa! I have pretty much the same experience as you describe in your opening post. Here's my story:

I started 'slowly' with MeB12, that is I took one chunk of a 5000µg tablet the first, a bit bigger the second, and since it I never felt almost anything I was up in a full tablet in a few days... quickly I was very much unable to sleep, and getting deprived of that much sleep I had to stop, and it normalized the next day. I decided not to try again until my Swanson's B-complex had arrived.

So, I started the B-complex a bit in the same fashion as the MeB12, except I never got past half a capsule. At the same time I was going full speed with the whole MeB12 tablet (it takes me about 4-5 hours to dissolve btw.) And did I get much energy??? It was waaaaay TOO MUCH!

One night I barely slept 4 hours, and then I thought if I try to refrain from resting during the day I'll be so tired I'll be able to sleep. At 10pm I was pretty tired and I went to bed finding my self waking up at 1030pm... went to the lavatory and woke up again at midnight feeling very rested... so I decided to take niacin to try to calm it down at about 1pm.

I took about 100µg+, and unfortunately on an empty stomach... next thing that happened was I got red like a beet from top to bottom, seriously I looked like a red glowing bulb, heart racing and smoking hot all over. I was about to panic, trying to cool down by applying cold water, I managed to remain calm, though something made me gasp for air now and then.

It got so intense that I called '911' fearing I got an allergic reaction, even though I've experienced a little flushing in my face once before. I was driven to the emergency room (or what ever you call it?) by a family member. On the way I started shaking, and I shook for 15 minutes. Fortunately the whole thing subsided after about an hour. Anyway, I was given some antihistamines just to be safe. So be careful with the niacin...

I think I will now attempt the low and slow method more carefully And, it seems that this B12 thing is really a big key of recovery for me.

 

[optimist]

I think I just need, like you, to find a dose that gives a steady flow of energy, but that allows me to sleep

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac can you define what you mean by quickly?

I'm not on medication, but am on herbals and dessicated organs for adrenal support, and it seems the effect those are having on me is getting stronger. I'm thinking if my energy starts getting to a place of feeling a little too much, then tapering those off (especially the dessicated adrenal) will be my first step.

I dropped hydrocortisone from 25mg to 15mg a few days after I began the support supps for the Freddd protocol - multi-B etc. That was because my energy was so good from them. (Also they cleared brainfog 100%.) I kept the T3 at 10mg. Daytime (tho not waking) temperatures rose a little, despite the drop in HC.

After 5 weeks on the protocol proper I was able to lower my HC again, from 15 to 10mg. Another 2 weeks and it was down to 5.

Then after 3.5 months I stopped all HC & T3. I didn't crash then, tho I have had a crash since. I believe the crash is a result of ATP start-up rather than lack of hormones.

Freddd has written somewhere that what appears to be hypoadrenal is often B12 deficiency. Naturally I have some time for this view now.

 

[Freddd]

Freddd has written somewhere that what appears to be hypoadrenal is often B12 deficiency. Naturally I have some time for this view now.

Hi Johnmac,

It goes all the way back to Adelle Davis from the 50s. She at the time said high protein, liver (and I would put all 4 of the deadlock quartet in an answer, not just B12) , pantothenic acid (now I would imagine would be updated to Pantithine).

 

[SwanRonson]

Not all MeCbl is created equal. In at least some people, low quality MeCbl can block high quality MeCbl. I have done a lot of trials in the last 11 years of combining various batches. When mixing a 3 star and 5 star MeCbl, the 5 star effects disappear completely when the 5 star MeCbl gets down to about 20% of the total after fading all the way down. There are some varieties of MeCbl that are no better than CyCbl.

I think I can confirm this myself. I've taken KAL brand methylb12 many times over the past few months and never noticed it doing anything at all. It did raise my b12 levels via blood test but never felt any symptom improvement from it.

Today upon taking the Enzymatic Therapy mb12 I felt a lift in brain fog within about 2 hours. It was very noticeable.

@Freddd is there a shelf life for the 5 star brands like Enzymatic where they lose their potency? I keep mine in a dark cabinet.

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd is there a shelf life for the 5 star brands like Enzymatic where they lose their potency? I keep mine in a dark cabinet.

I looked at a bottle I bought a few months back. It has an expiration date on the bottom about 2 years off. Moisture is a killer too, so keep them sealed until used. Isn't that a great feeling, that brainfog liftoff? Now the trick is to keep it going.