Overmethylated, yet inspired! What next?

[Sherpa]

What happened:

• I gradually worked up to 400mcg methylfolate w/ mB12.
  
  
• With each step up I got big improvements in energy, mood, and my need for thyroid and ribose dropped off. But at the 400mcg mark I developed severe insomnia - COULD. NOT. SLEEP. Similar effect to taking 400mg SAMe.
  
  
• I dropped back down to 267mcg methylfolate, but still had powerful insomnia.
  
  
• I went off methylfolate for 4 days. Took Nicotionic acid as needed. The insomnia gradually decreased each night I was off. I could sleep again.
  
  
• On Monday I started over again with just 67mcg methylfolate, thinking that wold be more gentle. The insomnia came right back. But my energy / PEM threshold has risen.

What I surmise from my reactions:

1. It appears that my methylation cycle was previously disrupted or broken.
2. It appears that taking methylfolate with B12 restarted my methylation cycle successfully, keeping it going even after I stopped methylation supplements.
3. It appears I am very sensitive to methylfolate. (I'm more like @Avalon or @caledonia, less like @Freddd )
4. It appears I am mostly tolerant to mB12 - it feels good, doesn't seem to bother me.
5. I don't know my SNPs: I was rejected by 23andMe.
6. I may need some sort of very low dose methylation support - preferably some kind of support that lets my body control its own rate of methylation. Hydroxycobalmin? Folinic acid? ???

Since Monday I have been off almost all supplements (except fish oil, NT Factor energy lipids, Vitamin C, thyroid and magnesium). I have depended on daily supplements for years.

To my surprise, I seem to have PLENTY of energy... I don't feel like a "CFS sufferer"... I am active all day and wait for PEM to come and it just doesn't really hit me like it did pre-Methylation experiment.

But I still feel a little bit "off balance".. sometimes "undermethylated" and sometimes "overmethylated" and have some insomnia. I am not cured, but definitely inspired.

I am considering going on Yasko's All-in-One multivitamin which boasts "VERY LOW dose methylation support" - 25mcg folate per pill.

How long should I wait before starting up methylfolate again?

Do some people require short-term methylation support only, and then they are back up and running for a long time?

Can you see any kind of pattern or offer insights / cofactors that may be important?


thank you.

 

[sregan]

What happened:

To my surprise, I seem to have PLENTY of energy... I don't feel like a "CFS sufferer"... I am active all day and wait for PEM to come and it just doesn't really hit me like it did pre-Methylation experiment.

But I still feel a little bit "off balance".. sometimes "undermethylated" and sometimes "overmethylated" and have some insomnia. I am not cured, but definitely inspired.

How long should I wait before starting up methylfolate again?

@Sherpa, my knee jerk is if you feel much better than usual don't mess with that right now. Just enjoy feeling closer to "normal". It's likely temporary (hope not) and you can continue with your supplements at a later time.

Do some people require short-term methylation support only, and then they are back up and running for a long time?

In theory yes, with some here like Ahmo and Freddd who are doing much much better its conceivable that once fully healed they won't need to take supps anymore assuming whatever was interfering with the methylation cycle has been remedied in the process.

 

[Tammy]

I am by no means an expert on methylation problems...................but reading over what you have surmised so far it seems like you have answered your own questions. You can't tolerate methylfolate on a daily basis............but you can tolerate mb12 on a daily basis and according to your comments you still feel pretty good without ANY methylation supplements since Monday....... Maybe wait and see how long you feel ok before you feel the need for the methyl supplements again and of course make note of how long that was. Or if you don't feel comfortable with that then just experiment with a given time..........ie. I will give myself one week off ( or whatever time you decide) the methyl supplements and start again but when you do start taking them again I wouldn't take the methylfolate every single day..............maybe start out every 3rd day and start low until you see a pattern of how much you can tolerate. I would do this BEFORE adding in co-factors.........or anything else for that matter that would CONFUSE the experiment. The reasoning I am using here is based on your comments.............again......I am not an expert. I am so Happy you are feeling better.............good job!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Excellent, @Sherpa ! And you are inspiring me! Tomorrow I will resume my methylation adventures

I am just waiting for my B complex (no B12 or B9) delivery from the local cmpd pharmacy later today. I already received my sublingual drops of HyB12, mB12 and folinic from the US.

I don't know my SNPs either, but like you I had a great response to mB12 (but now can't tolerate more than 100mcg) and mFolate was just too much. So my plan of action is to restart the mB12 at 50mcg and find the ideal dosage, and then restart the folinic at 25-50mcg. I have already taken folinic along with mB12 - it was fine, but had to stop everything again when I raised mB12 from 100 to 200mcg.

Changing from nicotinamide to niacin and from regular B6 to P5P improved wellness. Not to metion the magnesium load. Now I'm back to hunting my lost energy

I have been trying taurine to help my poor liver, but it just decrases my BP to unbearable levels

izzy

 

[caledonia]

Hi Sherpa,

Sure sounds like you got methylation cranking. It has a lot of momentum, just like the runaway train I show in the Methylation Made Easy videos. The niacin should help rapidly calm things down, just like Superman who comes to the rescue in the animation.

Read my Start Low and Go Slow document for help on dialing in the right dose that you can tolerate long term.

As an example, I'm taking the Yasko Holistic Health multi, but I'm only taking 1/64 of one pill, two days a week. A normal dose would be 6 pills per day.

I'm also taking liquid sublingual methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin with that, as the oral B12 in the multi is virtually useless. I do the B12 every day, subdivided into 4 doses per day. Total of about 16mcg methyl and 4mcg adenosyl.

ps. that's awesome about the energy and PEM reduction. I'm getting a bit of those too, but I have so many metals coming out, I have to be careful right now.

As Yasko is fond of saying, "it's a marathon, not a sprint".

 

[Critterina]

It really seems like you can build up folate reserves, but not mB12 reserves. I'm very happy for your progress. Either the low dose or the once or twice a week with the folate will probably work. Just let us know what you decide to try and how you do!

 

[Martial]

Your post just reminded me I took methylation supplements at 6pm without even thinking twice about it, hello 5am bed time tonight. In all seriousness though it seems you found something that works for you, glad to hear you are doing so much better now!

 

[Sherpa]

Well, its 'kinda working.' Yes, it has produced more energy and ATP. But the insomnia has also disrupted my life. Before I slept well but ran out of energy. Now I have energy but can't sleep well.

am grateful for the imperfect progress. I'm onto something... just have to test and refine it. I plan to 'dry out' for a couple weeks and restart very gentle, very low dose

 

[BadBadBear]

Sherpa, have you tried m-folate + hydrox-B12? That might be worth testing.

My MD had me do sulfur exclusion and I tapered off of mb12 & got very low on my m-folate dose. As I went back onto my supplements, I decided to test higher levels of m-folate + hydrox-B12, and that so far is working well for me. I don't get nearly as over-methylated, and my energy is more steady. I was also able to increase my T3 dosing, which helps me overall.

So that might be something worth trialing during the times you are not tolerating mb12. It also might help with the spikey effects of B12.

 

[sregan]

Well, its 'kinda working.' Yes, it has produced more energy and ATP. But the insomnia has also disrupted my life. Before I slept well but ran out of energy. Now I have energy but can't sleep well.

am grateful for the imperfect progress. I'm onto something... just have to test and refine it. I plan to 'dry out' for a couple weeks and restart very gentle, very low dose

Have you tried Melatonin for sleep? I take it when I know I've had any caffeine later in the day (or dark chocolate) will interrupt especially my REM sleep time (last 4 hours of 8) also something like phosphatidyl serine or L-glutamine can help if you are cortisol high in the evening. Usually that happens due to stress though.

 

[Sherpa]

@BadBadBear I am definitely gonna have to try hydroxycobalmin. It sounds gentler. Although the methyl B12 by itself didn't seem to cause problems... its' actually very nice/... but when combined with methylfolate the combo produces too much methylation activity.

@sregan I have tried melatonin and other (much stronger) things for sleep. But the overmethylation reaction produces a powerful kind of insomnia that makes sleep impossible, not difficult. I feel like I have so much energy I need to go to the gym, go dancing at a club... great to have energy, but very inconvenient after midnight.

 

[sregan]

@sregan I have tried melatonin and other (much stronger) things for sleep. But the overmethylation reaction produces a powerful kind of insomnia that makes sleep impossible, not difficult. I feel like I have so much energy I need to go to the gym, go dancing at a club... great to have energy, but very inconvenient after midnight.[/quote]

Need to make a distinction here. Your energy is high at the end of the day. Does it feel as if you had coffee all day? If there is anything more specific you can compare it to? Is your mind over active also? Or are you calm? Is your body calm but your mind overactive? What is your caffeine intake like? Are you eating dark chocolate? It's subtle differences but can help figure this out.

 

[Freddd]

What happened:

• I gradually worked up to 400mcg methylfolate w/ mB12.
  
  
• With each step up I got big improvements in energy, mood, and my need for thyroid and ribose dropped off. But at the 400mcg mark I developed severe insomnia - COULD. NOT. SLEEP. Similar effect to taking 400mg SAMe.
  
  
• I dropped back down to 267mcg methylfolate, but still had powerful insomnia.
  
  
• I went off methylfolate for 4 days. Took Nicotionic acid as needed. The insomnia gradually decreased each night I was off. I could sleep again.
  
  
• On Monday I started over again with just 67mcg methylfolate, thinking that wold be more gentle. The insomnia came right back. But my energy / PEM threshold has risen.

What I surmise from my reactions:

1. It appears that my methylation cycle was previously disrupted or broken.
2. It appears that taking methylfolate with B12 restarted my methylation cycle successfully, keeping it going even after I stopped methylation supplements.
3. It appears I am very sensitive to methylfolate. (I'm more like @Avalon or @caledonia, less like @Freddd )
4. It appears I am mostly tolerant to mB12 - it feels good, doesn't seem to bother me.
5. I don't know my SNPs: I was rejected by 23andMe.
6. I may need some sort of very low dose methylation support - preferably some kind of support that lets my body control its own rate of methylation. Hydroxycobalmin? Folinic acid? ???

Since Monday I have been off almost all supplements (except fish oil, NT Factor energy lipids, Vitamin C, thyroid and magnesium). I have depended on daily supplements for years.

To my surprise, I seem to have PLENTY of energy... I don't feel like a "CFS sufferer"... I am active all day and wait for PEM to come and it just doesn't really hit me like it did pre-Methylation experiment.

But I still feel a little bit "off balance".. sometimes "undermethylated" and sometimes "overmethylated" and have some insomnia. I am not cured, but definitely inspired.

I am considering going on Yasko's All-in-One multivitamin which boasts "VERY LOW dose methylation support" - 25mcg folate per pill.

How long should I wait before starting up methylfolate again?

Do some people require short-term methylation support only, and then they are back up and running for a long time?

Can you see any kind of pattern or offer insights / cofactors that may be important?


thank you.

Hi Sherpa,

Have you determined yet whether you have a paradoxical folate deficiency reaction to folic acid or veggie folates? I think that we would need to discuss this sleep issue and how to get through it. Have you ever tried a light box for SAD type use?

 

[Sherpa]

Need to make a distinction here. Your energy is high at the end of the day. Does it feel as if you had coffee all day? If there is anything more specific you can compare it to? Is your mind over active also? Or are you calm? Is your body calm but your mind overactive? What is your caffeine intake like? Are you eating dark chocolate? It's subtle differences but can help figure this out.

@sregan hey you really got me thinking here!

• The insomnia feels like I have a calm, steady stream of physical energy. I do not feel jittery, moody or anxious. Mind is not overactive. I think "Well, shoot... there's just no chance I'm gonna go to sleep. Maybe I should go out?" Whereas, with CFS.. I never, ever imagine about going out after the sun sets.
  
  
• There has been no correlation to caffeine or chocolute consumption - both are low and infrequent.

• It feels a lot like too much SAMe. I tried SAMe for depression, before I developed CFS. I would feel great during the day but then I wouldn't be able to sleep.
  
  
• It does not feel like low thyroid hormone insomnia. For me that is marked by a wandering, anxious mind and hypersensitivity to noise. The mind gravitates towards adrenaline-spiking thoughts to make adrenaline to compensate for the low thyroid hormone levels.
  
  
• Seeing that extended release Niacin doesn't work to help it, I am inclined to suspect my insomnia may be caused by hyperthyroidism! It feels like this same type of insomnia! I am taking thyroid glandular for a T4-toT3 conversion problem. Dr. Lynch talks about how you need to taper down on thryroid during methylation. I successfully tapered my thyroid dose down a bit at the beginning of methylation but didn't think about taking it down further as the dose of methylfolate increased!!! I think the combination of methylfolate and thyroid is too much.

I think a great experiment would be to restart methylation at a low dose and cut down thyroid! I may well sleep.

WOW, thanks for helping me think my insomnia through carefully. Your questions were very revealing and inspiring!
--

@Freddd I consume no folic acid and not a great deal of high folate veggies recently - so I am guessing not. I have tried a light box for SAD when I lived in Northern Oregon, but not since I lived in Florida. I get plenty of sun.

 

[Avalon]

Really good advice by everyone!! @Sherpa, do you have multiple wake ups during the night, my insomnia is were I fall a sleep ok but I wake several times. I can recollect a number of occasions were I will check the bed side clock and then fall asleep, but then wake up again on hour later. Effectively with mfolate I have poor 'sleep maintenance', I know if my fibromyalgia is bad on waking I know I have had limited stage 4 or I mentally un-refreshed, limited REM sleep, that night. I also noted that I had on a number of nights of adrenal surges/spikes, that would be indicative of an hypoglycemia episode. For me when taking MB12 and Mfolate my adrenals seem not to be able to cope with increased metabolic rate, that is my cells are drawing down on my blood glucose faster that my adrenals /liver can compensate.Last Gerd/ LPR has increased with Mfolate, note these will wake you up, LPR or silent reflux is horrible, you don't have any pain, but the events wake you up enough to disrupt deep/REM sleep.

@Sherpa , the only way forward is to start very low dosages MB12 and mfolate building up over 6 to 12 months, my preference is to trial Hydroxy B12, then adding folinic acid and at some point mfolate, let my body dictate the rate of methylation. I like @BadBadBear advice. Also @Tammy advice makes sense. It really is trial and error!

 

[BadBadBear]

@Sherpa, huh, I had not read that about thyroid and methylation. I have written to my own doctor that I thought somehow methylation and my T3 worked synergistically because at times, I could not tell if I was overmethylated or hyperthyroid, so it's interesting to see Dr. Lynch say that it can happen. Thanks for posting that link!!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa
be careful now. While high folate messes up with potassium and magnesium, high B12 can estimulate too much (hyperthyroid) making you to deplete your *IODINE STORES and next leading to hypothyroid.

It happened to me, first hyper (lost weight which I couldn't afford to loose) and now hypo. I wish I knew this before I can't supplement iodine right now due to high antibodies against the thyroid and must keep my B12 supplementation low

I know you are supporting the thyroid (I wasn't), so please keep us posted on how you manage it all. Good luck!

izzy

 

[Avalon]

@Gondwanaland, makes sense, there are no brakes with mb12 and mfolate and the bodies metabolic rate will increase until you run out MB12/Mfolate, co-factors, also you can get depression of blood sugars if you have problems with adrenal signalling (HPA axis) and liver glycogen stores.

 

[shah78]

@Sherpa. My thyroid labs improved substantially once I got methylation moving.

 

[Sherpa]

I cut my thyroid dose down and still couldn't sleep.

I think the insomnia has to do with the methylfolate and/or the high doses of active forms of vitamins and minerals in the Doctor's Best multivitamin I was taking. Maybe just too strong overall.

I am went off Doctors Best Multiple and went on Yasko's All-in-One Multi. 1 tablet per day. It feels "nice" but much gentler - it has much lower doses.

One of the most important things I learned in my healing journey is that when thyroid horomone is low, my mind gets anxious and starts gravitating towards worrying or titillating topics (like news websites, or thinking about mistakes in my life).

This is because when thyroid hormone is too low, the body needs extra adrenaline to maintain homeostasis.

When thyroid is too high, I feel tension, energy and a relentless insomnia.

In this case.. though... the insomnia did not appear to be entirely high thyroid-related.