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Naviaux et. al.: Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome

JamBob

Senior Member
Messages
191
How is this any different though to the idea of depression being an adaptive (useful) state for dealing with life's hardships? (see for example http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/ ).Isn't that just what the psych lobby will say?

At the end of the paper they say "The study of larger cohorts from diverse geographical areas, and comparison with related medical disorders like depression and posttraumatic stress disorder, will be needed to validate the universality and specificity of these findings."

Also I would like to know could hypothyroidism (a lot more common in women though sometimes seen in men) put you into a hypometabolic state? Or would there be a different outcome in terms of metabolite deficiencies found?
 

Forbin

Senior Member
Messages
966
And should you want to curl up with the C. Elegans nematode known for its ability to enter the dauer state, there's a plush toy for that.o_O

Seriously. At giantmicrobes.com.

http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/products/celegans.html


c-elegans.jpg
 
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Research 1st

Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.
Messages
768
This technology, though new, should be available in the UK for replication, I'd have thought. Hope we can get a UK replication going ASAP.

Problem 1:
The UK is the birth place of the cruel Psych Lobby denial of ME, and should play no part in deciding anything to do with CFS or ME, because they created the suffering for patients. (Unlike independent American researchers who do the exact opposite). Ergo, they could never be independent.

Problem 2:
The UK has no independent researchers like Scientists Navieux and Ron Davis, for CFS/ME it only has the MRC.

Problem 3:

The MRC orchestrated the PACE trial and historically backed pro psychiatric views on ME as CFS.

Problem 4:
The MRC continues to enable GET studies for Children.

Problem 5:
The UK has never mailed CFS/ME patients to inform them they cannot donate blood/tissue, they have also not informed doctors!!! How many babies are now infected? 1 or 1 milliion? No one knows. How safe!

Are we to think, the UK would produce an honest study, using classic 'ME sufferers' that proves they were wrong all along?

No, their current research based on psycho-social theory of fear avoidance on exercise and activity would then have to be disbanded. That will never be allowed to happen by those who deny ME (World Health Organisation disease) even exists, as then they are proven to be wrong and need to pay compensation for injuries and deaths to PWME who've died since the 'idea' CFS = ME was established by them.

What will happen is private American researchers selling private tests (that other countries with socialised medical health care systems ignore, not just UK), will cause the development of a time-wasting long drawn out legal process in which via very costly private testing, European, Canadian and Australian ME sufferers will have to take personal legal action against the various health agencies that produce scientifically fraudulent, non evidence based research.

CBT/GET, is blueprinted in the UK and exported around the world, to be sold to (ironically) America where it is sold to American insurance companies for profit.

In terms of game changing for patients, Americans can change the status quo: America is a free nation (bill of rights, constitution, 2nd amendment etc), that has no tax payer funded, pro psychiatric state run health service. UK has no choice, it's psychiatry or nothing.(socialism). In America, you pay with your credit card for choice (capitalism)

America has choice, the UK has a dictatorship of psychiatrists who 'believe' patients 'believe' in a disease that doesn't exist as this is cost effective, and thus fits the model for communism precisely.

No escape from that, when it's state lead. UK research is also state lead and state influenced, not independent private research. Why do you think it was the MRC who just happened to need the PACE trial so much? Think why it was so important to blow $8 million on psych patients, and refer to them as 'ME'? As it de legitimizes ME.

Why then, in heaven's name, would the MRC or anyone else in power, want to then legitimize ME, by honestly replicating Navieux or Davis's work? Of course they won't.

Conversely, in America, you have human rights and an excellent ability to take legal action against people who steal your human rights, when medical evidence surfaces this is happening.

The idea that the UK will perform good quality honesty science to prove ME exits outside of psych CFS, is not going to happen, ever, as if it does, the NHS (National Health Service) would be sued for millions of pounds, by each and every patient. They would go bust, and there would be no health service left.

Thus it cannot happen.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
@JamBob--re hypothyroidism--I do recall that Paul Cheney mentioned that he thought that thyroid replacement therapy might be the most dangerous thing that could be prescribed for ME--he clearly shared much of the basic model that emerges from this terrific study, and may well have had a real share in the basic thinking that went into it--he is thanked.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Just to be clear for the non scientists (like me), supposing this finding is replicated and there are no problems with other diseases producing similar results, do the specfic panels of metabolites mentioned (8 for men 13 for women? producing 90%+ confidence) have potential to be biomarkers for research and/or clinical use? They are not too obscure or difficult for that purpose?

OTH
Nope. Neither too difficult or obscure. You just create the appropriate test kit and rules on how to interpret it. Its an engineering problem at that point.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
If it hasn't been mentioned yet, one reason this is going to be tough to ignore is that it was published in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS), the second most cited journal across all fields of science. [The first spot going to the Journal of Biological Chemistry].
Yes, a super influential and authoritative journal, immensely respected.
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Ron says this is the best research ever done on ME/CFS and will transform research, diagnosis and treatment. It is consistent with what Ron has been finding with Metabalon data, but Naviaux has analyzed a large number of patients and put it all together into a coherent theory with predictive value. It's amazing and we're so excited that the paper is finally out and we can talk about it. Ron and Naviaux are now collaborating, with funding from OMF, on a big study that will validate these results and add on a genetic component to try to explain variation in metabolites and symptoms. Stay tuned for a statement from Ron tonight or tomorrow! We're going to END ME/CFS!
Looking forward to it, @Rose49 and please say thank you to the whole team including Ron for working so hard at it. Here's hoping :thumbsup:
 

M Paine

Senior Member
Messages
341
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
@JamBob--re hypothyroidism--I do recall that Paul Cheney mentioned that he thought that thyroid replacement therapy might be the most dangerous thing that could be prescribed for ME--he clearly shared much of the basic model that emerges from this terrific study, and may well have had a real share in the basic thinking that went into it--he is thanked.

He speaks about it here from 22:00 onwards:

 

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
From what I have read so far, They say ME/CFS is a reponse to environmental stress, but they don't speculate on what happens when the stress is removed. Should we become healthy people again, or has the process spun out of control, or have the mechanisms to stop the ME/CFS process broken?

Here is a quote from the paper...

... These facts suggest that CFS is an evolutionarily conserved, genetically regulated, hypometabolic state similar to dauer that permits survival and persistence under conditions of environmental stress but at the cost of severely curtailed function and quality of life....
 
Messages
78
Location
Melbourne, Australia
From what I have read so far, They say ME/CFS is a reponse to environmental stress, but they don't speculate on what happens when the stress is removed. Should we become healthy people again, or has the process spun out of control, or have the mechanisms to stop the ME/CFS process broken?

I've been wondering the same. Would the treatment be a matter of a short term process to shift the body out of this dauer-like state, or would it require ongoing treatment to keep it that way? Ultimately, we need the genomics research to help identify susceptible individuals, and figure out ways to prevent the state from developing in the first place.