Naviaux et. al.: Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome

[JaimeS]

Yes, that would be freakin' awesome.

But yes, the BPS crowd will find a way to GET around such a finding. In the same way as they dismiss pain and other symptom exacerbations as things to be pushed through (no pain, no gain), they will dismiss the underlying metabolic changes. They will stress the graded nature of GET. You see it's our fault that we take a boom and bust approach to activity - our minds are faulty and so we need the guidance of a medically qualified someone to tell us exactly how much exercise to do each day.

Or they will say that these metabolic changes are due to deconditioning.

If you do vs sedentary controls, they will emphasize the power of the mind and state that it's attitudes of the patients that are so strongly affecting their biology.

As others have said before (and as many will say again) the beauty of the BPS theory is that all BS fits inside it.

-J

 

[Sasha]

What would be freakin' awesome is if someone did a metabolomics study pre and post exercise challenge, showing objective abnormalities (metabolism crashing even further) during the PEM state, say 24-48 hrs after exertion. This sort of study would be the stuff of nightmares for CBT/GET pushers.

Aren't they doing that in the intramural NIH study?

 

[Sidereal]

Aren't they doing that in the intramural NIH study?

I can't remember what the intramural study is doing.

 

[Gijs]

What we need now is independent replication. So it will takes years..... and years.....

 

[John Mac]

What about the Hanson study?

 

[Sidereal]

What we need now is independent replication. So it will takes years..... and years.....

Always the optimist!

 

[viggster]

What we need now is independent replication. So it will takes years..... and years.....

The replication work in another cohort began in May. OMF is moving quickly.

http://www.openmedicinefoundation.org/expanded-mecfs-metabolomics-study/

 

[M Paine]

There's an upcoming Cornell paper which also looks at metabolomics (Just females, less metabolites and less patients) which has also documented hypometabolic state in patients vs controls. It's awaiting review/publication.

 

[Sidereal]

The replication work in another cohort began in May. OMF is moving quickly.

http://www.openmedicinefoundation.org/expanded-mecfs-metabolomics-study/

It's not independent replication though. Naviaux is involved. We need unrelated research groups to replicate this.

 

[A.B.]

It's not independent replication though. Naviaux is involved. We need unrelated research groups to replicate this.

And for that we need the NIH to make more funding available.

 

[M Paine]

More info on the completed Cornell Metabolomics study which replicates some of these findings:

Start from 18:20

 

[AndyPR]

There's an upcoming Cornell paper which also looks at metabolomics (Just females, less metabolites and less patients) which has also documented hypometabolic state in patients vs controls. It's awaiting review/publication.

The one Hanson talks about in her webinar? She partially verifies the Naviaux findings. Details are in the transcript I posted.

 

[Tuha]

I think Lipkin´s group has a potential to replicate Naviaux´s study. Lipkin plans to do his microbiome study and metabolomic is a big part of it.

Consider to donae to Lipkin´s study:
http://microbediscovery.org/

 

[Bob]

I think Lipkin´s group has a potential to replicate Naviaux´s study. Lipkin plans to do his microbiome study and metabolomic is a big part of it.

Consider to donate to Lipkin´s study:
http://microbediscovery.org/

Yes, that could be a very important replication study. I hope Lipkin has read the Naviaux paper or, better still, communicated with Naviaux/Davis, because Lipkin would be able to build upon the research base.

 

[Sidereal]

I think Lipkin´s group has a potential to replicate Naviaux´s study. Lipkin plans to do his microbiome study and metabolomic is a big part of it.

Consider to donae to Lipkin´s study:
http://microbediscovery.org/

Ages ago there was some chatter about Lipkin having found some metabolites in ME/CFS that were abnormal, to be published "soon". Whatever happened to that paper, I wonder.

 

[JaimeS]

More info on the completed Cornell Metabolomics study which replicates some of these findings:

Start from 18:20

Thanks for sharing this! It's interesting (and unusual!) to see replication of any kind so soon. Especially interesting to see that the percent of metabolites decreased is within the margin of error, and so is the number of 'off' metabolites.

Phospholipids, purines, fatty acids, bile acids, etc. are all off in both trials.

The chat talks about different methods to analyze the blood, but to me, the cohort differences are most significant; Naviaux's folk were in such a small geographic area.

Good for them to submit a request to the NIH. Now they have solid data for a solid hypothesis: hypometabolism in ME/CFS. They work at Cornell, one of the most well-respected medical education institutions in the entire country -- certainly in the top 5 in the US. The NIH will have to make up something pretty dramatic in order to get around funding such a study with such a hypothesis presented by such a group.

-J

 

[anciendaze]

OK, who'd heard of 'dauer' before?
...

I'm sure there must be people on here who are fluent in German, and I've been waiting for them to explain this. In my very limited experience you are more likely to encounter the verb than the noun. This means "to last, persist, endure or take."

If you ask an English-speaking handyman how long a job will take, he is likely to say "it will take me about X, (if I don't find anything worse.)" There is some personal responsibility, but with an escape clause. In German, the job itself has persistence, irrespective of the worker. "Es dauert" (from dauern/daueren). This can range from "Es dauert nicht lange" to "Es dauert ewig."

In French the answer is most likely a shrug.

 

[JamBob]

@JaimeS What do you about this study that shows differences in the metabolome between inactive and active healthy twins? Is it possible the BPS crowd could use stuff like this to just say we are hypo metabolic due to inactivity?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...tabolome-measures-in-the-twins-the-Pieksamaki

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ation-structure-between-clinical-measurements

 

[JaimeS]

Without even reading it, the answer is yes.

 

[JaimeS]

Reading it, the answer is "not so much". I mean, they could name one or two similarities, but they would look like idiots. But it's never stopped them before!